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On July 30 2014 02:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
And no offence fellow Americans, but if you think Israel's founding was brutal and destructive I guess you should better pack your bags right now, because it weren't the Israelis who handed over small pox infested blankets to the indigenous people of America.
And regarding the founding of Israel: Actually even the most hardcore Zionists rarely bring up religious scripture as a legitimation for the country. The largest group of Israelis identifies as 'secular Jewish'. What does this even mean? You make a completely unrelated comment somehow trying to justify something awful Israel did based on something similarly awful that American settlers did hundreds of years ago.Then you make a pointless comment about how Israelis are secular. No shit. Did you even read my post? The whole conflict is political, not religious.
And for the last few pages you were trying to legitimize what the Hamas does by referring to what the Israelis did to the British.
No shit. Did you even read my post? The whole conflict is political, not religious.
Literally a few posts ago you claimed that Israel is an exlusively Jewish state, founded on religious scripture. Now your claiming that the conflict is of political nature. You'll need to decide what your position is.
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On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:
[quote]
They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years.
Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis.
Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic.
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On July 30 2014 03:00 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
And no offence fellow Americans, but if you think Israel's founding was brutal and destructive I guess you should better pack your bags right now, because it weren't the Israelis who handed over small pox infested blankets to the indigenous people of America.
And regarding the founding of Israel: Actually even the most hardcore Zionists rarely bring up religious scripture as a legitimation for the country. The largest group of Israelis identifies as 'secular Jewish'. What does this even mean? You make a completely unrelated comment somehow trying to justify something awful Israel did based on something similarly awful that American settlers did hundreds of years ago.Then you make a pointless comment about how Israelis are secular. No shit. Did you even read my post? The whole conflict is political, not religious. And for the last few pages you were trying to legitimize what the Hamas does by referring to what the Israelis did to the British. Show nested quote +No shit. Did you even read my post? The whole conflict is political, not religious. Literally a few posts ago you claimed that Israel is an exlusively Jewish state, founded on religious scripture. Now your claiming that the conflict is of political nature. You'll need to decide what your position is.
Please show me where I said that I approve of what Hamas is doing.
The argument is political because a state was created where there were already people living. Why the Jews decided they wanted their own state and their justification for it is their own business. It can be religious or other.
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On July 30 2014 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:26 kwizach wrote:
It is not up for debate. The discriminations against Israeli Arabas in Israel are, again, well-documented. The discrimination against Arabs is well documented. As is the discrimination against black people in the United States or the discrimination of Turkish immigrants in Germany. That doesn't mean that these countries are trying to form some kind of two class society.
You're the one who wrote it was "up for debate". Also, please stop with your relativism which only serves the obscure the specificity of the situation faced by Israeli Arabas.
Is that seriously the part of my post you're going to reply to? For real? You're just going to completely ignore the rest?
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On July 30 2014 00:45 Jormundr wrote:The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously. They have taken a mile and will not give an inch. Why? Because the land is rightfully theirs because it was given to them by god.
Correct map is this, it was never Palestinian land until some parts recently.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F6MXW.jpg)
Why haven't the palestinian people complain to Jordan and Syria about taking what they thought was "their land?"
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On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence.
Most countries have policies that allow foreign enclaves easier access to their "home" country. Germany for example allowed a large number of Russian citizens to "return" to Germany due to their ancestry after 1990. There are plenty of examples for that. Of course this is bit special in the case of Israel due to the way it was founded, but the policy in itself is extremely common. You can still immigrate to Israel as highly qualified worker, if you stay there for many years. Again this is difficult, but so is migrating to almost any other country except perhaps the US. And even that isn't real true anymore. Why are you making that sound so sinister?
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On July 30 2014 03:03 T0mken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:45 Jormundr wrote:the possibility that the Jews need to do without is unacceptable The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously. They have taken a mile and will not give an inch. Why? Because the land is rightfully theirs because it was given to them by god. Correct map is this, it was never Palestinian land until some parts recently. Why haven't the palestinian people complain to Jordan and Syria about taking what they thought was "their land?"
"A Palestinian state never existed" is probably one of the stupidest and easily refutable arguments out there.
The land was not British land. They did not own it. It was placed under British control after World War I (by the league of nations, proto-UN) to weaken the Ottoman Empire and oversee its breakup after they lost the War.
The land was to be kept under control until a time where it was able to be independent.
The reality on the ground is that PEOPLE LIVED THERE. Call them Ottomans or British or whatever you want. They lived there, and they had been living there for thousands of years.
Jews from Europe and other parts of the world then came pouring into the region and through violence created a new country on top of a population of Palestinians.
It is irrelevant that there was no 'state of Palestine' in this conflict.
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On July 30 2014 03:07 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Most countries have policies that allow foreign enclaves easier access to their "home" country. Germany for example allowed a large number of Russian citizens to "return" to Germany due to their ancestry after 1990. There are plenty of examples for that. Of course this is bit special in the case of Israel due to the way it was founded, but the policy in itself is extremely common. You can still immigrate to Israel as highly qualified worker, if you stay there for many years. Again this is difficult, but so is migrating to almost any other country except perhaps the US. And even that isn't real true anymore. Why are you making that sound so sinister?
Because you can migrate to many civilized countries as a "high skilled worker."
However, name ONE other country where simply being Jewish gets you in.
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On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:
[quote]
The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic.
So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here.
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On July 30 2014 03:09 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:07 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Most countries have policies that allow foreign enclaves easier access to their "home" country. Germany for example allowed a large number of Russian citizens to "return" to Germany due to their ancestry after 1990. There are plenty of examples for that. Of course this is bit special in the case of Israel due to the way it was founded, but the policy in itself is extremely common. You can still immigrate to Israel as highly qualified worker, if you stay there for many years. Again this is difficult, but so is migrating to almost any other country except perhaps the US. And even that isn't real true anymore. Why are you making that sound so sinister? Because you can migrate to many civilized countries as a "high skilled worker." However, name ONE other country where simply being Jewish gets you in.
Germany
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On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:
[quote]
Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here.
Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood.
Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution.
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On July 30 2014 03:13 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:09 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:07 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Most countries have policies that allow foreign enclaves easier access to their "home" country. Germany for example allowed a large number of Russian citizens to "return" to Germany due to their ancestry after 1990. There are plenty of examples for that. Of course this is bit special in the case of Israel due to the way it was founded, but the policy in itself is extremely common. You can still immigrate to Israel as highly qualified worker, if you stay there for many years. Again this is difficult, but so is migrating to almost any other country except perhaps the US. And even that isn't real true anymore. Why are you making that sound so sinister? Because you can migrate to many civilized countries as a "high skilled worker." However, name ONE other country where simply being Jewish gets you in. Germany
It's different. They are reclaiming German citizenship stripped under Nazi rule from Jews. Not just issuing passports to people.
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On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:
[quote]
If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion)
Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution.
No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel.
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On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Let me clarify:
Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created.
The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews).
When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS!
I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two.
The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel.
Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? Saying "these people have been persecuted and they need somehwere to feel safe" is okay. Saying "we are now claiming this land for the jews despite the fact that other people live here and we're using terrorism to drive them out" is not. I think that's pretty clear.
And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted.
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On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:
[quote]
The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted.
Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone?
And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong.
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On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there.
Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish?
Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs?
The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous.
The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong.
The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Therefore they need something that is not Israel. Since Israel sure as shit isn't going anywhere, they need something else. A palestinian state is the most reasonable conclusion.
Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well?
EDIT - and I was not referring to Europe, I was referring to the palestinian territories, where Jews fled to to escape persecution in Europe, actually.
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On July 30 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:
[quote]
The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have?
So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well?
Sure, if they can find land, take it and hold it for long enough where they can form their own government. Until then, nope.
Seriously, the debate on if Israel should exist is the dumbest argument of all time. They exist and they have a military so large you cannot remove them. That's how every nation guarantees their sovereignty.
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On July 30 2014 03:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel.
Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there.
I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement.
The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region. So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well? Sure, if they can find land, take it and hold it for long enough where they can form their own government. Until then, nope. Seriously, the debate on if Israel should exist is the dumbest argument of all time. They exist and they have a military so large you cannot remove them. That's how every nation guarantees their sovereignty.
You're missing the point.
Of course they exist and they have a strong military and they're not going anywhere.
Understanding the cause of a conflict is the key to resolving it. To fix anything that's broken you first need to know why it's broken and what's causing it to malfunction.
This debate is important in understanding where both sides come from. It's crucial in agreeing to a solution.
I agree that it's pointless to sit here and deny Israel's right to exist. But it's CRUCIAL to understand why those who believe that do so. And all my posts so far have been to clarify the point of view held by the Palestinians regarding this conflict.
So when a pro-Israeli comes and says "how can you deny our right to exist," they can read this and say, oh, that's why. Well maybe that's not so unreasonable after all and we should try to make peace with them.
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On July 30 2014 03:30 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:27 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:56 BlueSpace wrote:
[quote]
So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years. Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis. Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic. So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well? Sure, if they can find land, take it and hold it for long enough where they can form their own government. Until then, nope. Seriously, the debate on if Israel should exist is the dumbest argument of all time. They exist and they have a military so large you cannot remove them. That's how every nation guarantees their sovereignty. You're missing the point. Of course they exist and they have a strong military and they're not going anywhere. Understanding the cause of a conflict is the key to resolving it. To fix anything that's broken you first need to know why it's broken and what's causing it to malfunction. This debate is important in understanding where both sides come from. It's crucial in agreeing to a solution.
No I get the point, I have been hearing about this conflict for over 30 years now, its pretty old. I seen both sides and confirmed they are both dumb and want unreasonable things. But I am tired of people digging back into history to try to prove who is more right, like that somehow makes it all better.
None of us were alive when this all started. Soon, there will be no one alive who remembers when it all started. And when that happens and the conflict is still going, it has hit a new level of stupid. As some point, no one cares anymore and just wants its to end.
So, now that you have given us all a history lesson, what is your solution to this whole mess?
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EPT
