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On July 30 2014 03:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:13 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:09 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:07 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Most countries have policies that allow foreign enclaves easier access to their "home" country. Germany for example allowed a large number of Russian citizens to "return" to Germany due to their ancestry after 1990. There are plenty of examples for that. Of course this is bit special in the case of Israel due to the way it was founded, but the policy in itself is extremely common. You can still immigrate to Israel as highly qualified worker, if you stay there for many years. Again this is difficult, but so is migrating to almost any other country except perhaps the US. And even that isn't real true anymore. Why are you making that sound so sinister? Because you can migrate to many civilized countries as a "high skilled worker." However, name ONE other country where simply being Jewish gets you in. Germany It's different. They are reclaiming German citizenship stripped under Nazi rule from Jews. Not just issuing passports to people.
Nope, for some time Germany just gave out passports to Jews from the former soviet union in order to bolster the communities in Germany, It has become more restrictive a few years ago, but it is still possible.
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On July 30 2014 03:03 T0mken wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:45 Jormundr wrote:the possibility that the Jews need to do without is unacceptable The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously. They have taken a mile and will not give an inch. Why? Because the land is rightfully theirs because it was given to them by god. Correct map is this, it was never Palestinian land until some parts recently. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F6MXW.jpg) Why haven't the palestinian people complain to Jordan and Syria about taking what they thought was "their land?"
The Gaza strip is not really a friend of the area. The only neighboring countries are Israel and Egypt. Egypt will not touch Gaza with a rake at the moment and Hamas is truely getting spanked by the egyptian junta since they have a connection to the muslim brotherhood. Israel, well...
The West Bank is a different issue. The main part of the West Bank is not as such Jordanese and has never been recognised internationally as such. It is an area belonging to Palestine and has more or less been seen as such internationally.
Golan Heights, have on the other hand, been on the table for years. Syria doesn't want to at sign the agreements Israel wants as compensation and now Lieberman has told Syria to forget ever getting it back...
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On July 30 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2. Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt. The land was under British control until such a time that the locals could stand on their own feet as per the league of nations agreement after ww1. The Balfour declaration specified that the Jewish state could be created in Palestine IF the Arabs were okay with it, which they were not. You forget that at the time Israelis were killing British and Arabs in the region and were classified as terrorists by the British government.
To counterbalance this the mandate also included the Balfour declaration, Arabs consistently avoided diplomacy at all turns, the Arab uprising in 33-36 targeted Jews and the British (and were also basically terrorists) and the lack of a solution led Britain to cut lose long before the country could stand on it's own.
Then everyone just left the mess and let it slug out and Israel came out on top.
If the Arabs had won Palestine would be founded on terrorism and genocide. Well the new territory in Egypt, Syria and Jordan would have been won with terrorism and genocide I guess since there wouldn't be a Palestine.
It's not like one side was worse then the other in pre 48.
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On July 30 2014 03:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:30 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:27 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:01 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Actually, that is exactly my point. Saying Israel shouldn't exist is not anti-semetic in any way. The safety of the Jewish people is actually not tied to Israel at all. I, for one, would bargain that more Jews die from violent conflict in Israel than anywhere else on a daily basis.
Accepting that the Jews won't go away because they have the 11th most powerful military in the world, a nuclear arsenal, and the backing of the United states is not the same as saying that I think Israel's founding on the Palestinian territories is legitimate. The first is simply pragmatic.
So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well? Sure, if they can find land, take it and hold it for long enough where they can form their own government. Until then, nope. Seriously, the debate on if Israel should exist is the dumbest argument of all time. They exist and they have a military so large you cannot remove them. That's how every nation guarantees their sovereignty. You're missing the point. Of course they exist and they have a strong military and they're not going anywhere. Understanding the cause of a conflict is the key to resolving it. To fix anything that's broken you first need to know why it's broken and what's causing it to malfunction. This debate is important in understanding where both sides come from. It's crucial in agreeing to a solution. No I get the point, I have been hearing about this conflict for over 30 years now, its pretty old. I seen both sides and confirmed they are both dumb and want unreasonable things. But I am tired of people digging back into history to try to prove who is more right. None of us were alive when this all started. Soon, there will be no one alive who remembers when it all started. As some point, no one cares anymore and just wants its to end. So, now that you have given us all a history lesson, what is your solution to this whole mess?
Well, a few things need to happen:
1) Palestinians need to get their shit together. Someone needs to get the military side of Hamas (basically, the terrorists) under control. Seriously, no more rocket attacks at Israel. I don't know how you do this, but I think it's very important. Israel has shown time and time again that it is content sitting back and letting the one-sidedness of the conflict take its toll. You have to force them to the negotiating table and the only way you do this is through the complete cessation of violence.
2) Israel has to create living environments for the Palestinians that are sustainable. That means the blockades absolutely must end and the Gazans (and those in the West Bank for that matter) must be allowed to get the supplies they need to live like human beings. The Palestinians have nothing. If they had tanks and planes they would fight with tanks and planes but all they have is shitty unguided rockets. As long as they are denied the most basic human requirements they will continue to fire them into Israel, which puts us back at 1).
3) The land needs to be split up (more evenly) and the Israeli settlements must be removed from the West Bank. It's clear that Israel wants as few Arabs as possible living in it, and that the Palestinians have no desire to become Israeli citizens. Palestinians need their own country.
Everyone knows this, but unfortunately 2) will not happen until 1) happens and 1) will not happen until 2) does. So this will go on forever, or until Israel has wiped Gaza off the map, judging by civilian casualty figures.
A powerful Palestinian leader who can take away public support for Hamas and demiltarize them is probably our only real hope at peace in the near future.
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Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths to stall Israel while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels.
Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fired then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School.
According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit.
Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable.
+ Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
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On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are build wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Well the jews used to hide their weapons like the gazans are doing today... it didn't stop them from fighting for what they thought was a just cause.
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On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. Palestinians look for international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are build wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
I'm gonna stop you at your first sentence.
![[image loading]](http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47314000/jpg/_47314550_icrc_wb_checkpoint.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.globalexchange.org/blogs/peopletopeople/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/beit-iba-checkpoint-483.jpg)
Please review the meaning of the word 'independence', as you seem to have gotten it wrong.
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On July 30 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 03:35 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:30 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:27 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:25 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:22 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:16 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 03:14 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 03:11 BlueSpace wrote:
[quote]
So if the Israelis laid down their arms, their Arab neighbors would just come over with cake and tea? Are you kidding me? What structure would you replace the state of Israel with? I asked you not to argue in a vacuum, but this is precisely what you're doing here. Of course not. But this "vacuum" logic is what the whole conflict is based on and therefore should be understood. Pragmatically the only option is a 2 state solution. No, you're applying this vacuum logic to this conflict. I think that what happened to the Jews in Europe and especially in Germany gave them a legitimate reason to settle in Israel. Why Israel? Why not another piece of land that didn't already have people living there? And why do they need their own country? Jews had been living in that area for thousands of years without being persecuted. Why do the Palestinians need their own country? Why does anyone? And saying that Jews lived anyplace in history without being persecuted is pretty rich. Antisemitism in Europe has been a thing since Europe was a thing. Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out wrong. The Palestinians don't need their own country. They need a country that is not an exclusive Jewish state created on top of them. Blacks, gypsies, gays, and the mentally retarded have all been persecuted. Should they all get their own countries as well? Sure, if they can find land, take it and hold it for long enough where they can form their own government. Until then, nope. Seriously, the debate on if Israel should exist is the dumbest argument of all time. They exist and they have a military so large you cannot remove them. That's how every nation guarantees their sovereignty. You're missing the point. Of course they exist and they have a strong military and they're not going anywhere. Understanding the cause of a conflict is the key to resolving it. To fix anything that's broken you first need to know why it's broken and what's causing it to malfunction. This debate is important in understanding where both sides come from. It's crucial in agreeing to a solution. No I get the point, I have been hearing about this conflict for over 30 years now, its pretty old. I seen both sides and confirmed they are both dumb and want unreasonable things. But I am tired of people digging back into history to try to prove who is more right. None of us were alive when this all started. Soon, there will be no one alive who remembers when it all started. As some point, no one cares anymore and just wants its to end. So, now that you have given us all a history lesson, what is your solution to this whole mess? A powerful Palestinian leader who can take away public support for Hamas and demiltarize them is probably our only real hope at peace in the near future.
+++A powerful Israeli leader who can dismantle warmonger and religious fundamentalist, militaristic extremist powers altogether from the Knesset so not only Hamas has to go away but their Israeli counterparts as well.
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On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies.
Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of?
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On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of?
DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright.
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On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright.
He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already.
For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied.
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There is a difference between the de jure occupation because Israel is controlling the borders and the airspace and the de facto occupation before 2005. Israel is clearly not controlling the politics or the territory of the actual Gaza strip.
And he's completely right about the propaganda claim. None of the sources he quoted are propaganda sites. The amount of "biased Zionist, Israeli propaganda, strawman fallacy" accusations are getting annoying.
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On July 30 2014 05:08 Nyxisto wrote:
There is a difference between the de jure occupation because Israel is controlling the borders and the airspace and the de facto occupation before 2005. Israel is clearly not controlling the politics or the territory of the actual Gaza strip.
It's not up to you to decide wheither it is different or not. It is a ruling from the international court of law. There are clear criteria that define occupation, and the gaza occupation respond to those criteria.
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On July 30 2014 05:10 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:08 Nyxisto wrote:
There is a difference between the de jure occupation because Israel is controlling the borders and the airspace and the de facto occupation before 2005. Israel is clearly not controlling the politics or the territory of the actual Gaza strip. It's not up to you to decide wheither it is different or not. It is a ruling from the international court of law. There are clear criteria that define occupation, and the gaza occupation respond to those criteria.
There is a very big difference in Gaza before the Israelian disengagement and the time after. Just because Gaza is still legally occupied, that does not mean that nothing debate-worthy has changed.
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On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied.
I've got all the nerve you will ever need.
And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda."
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On July 30 2014 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:10 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:08 Nyxisto wrote:
There is a difference between the de jure occupation because Israel is controlling the borders and the airspace and the de facto occupation before 2005. Israel is clearly not controlling the politics or the territory of the actual Gaza strip. It's not up to you to decide wheither it is different or not. It is a ruling from the international court of law. There are clear criteria that define occupation, and the gaza occupation respond to those criteria. There is a very big difference in Gaza before the Israelian disengagement and the time after. Just because Gaza is still legally occupied, that does not mean that nothing debate-worthy has changed.
It doesn't change the fact that it is occupied. And please, every organisations agree on the fact that it is a humanitarian disaster.
On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda."
Independant new source ? The new york times ? lol
Many people think differently on that subject. The simple fact that most humanitarian report, from HRH or Amnesty International, or even the UN resolution, are completly discarded or called "con by those so called "independant news source" as soon as it is about Israel make me feel those independant are not so independant.
Just read facts and stop trying to change what is by changed how its named.
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On July 30 2014 05:17 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:12 Nyxisto wrote:On July 30 2014 05:10 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:08 Nyxisto wrote:
There is a difference between the de jure occupation because Israel is controlling the borders and the airspace and the de facto occupation before 2005. Israel is clearly not controlling the politics or the territory of the actual Gaza strip. It's not up to you to decide wheither it is different or not. It is a ruling from the international court of law. There are clear criteria that define occupation, and the gaza occupation respond to those criteria. There is a very big difference in Gaza before the Israelian disengagement and the time after. Just because Gaza is still legally occupied, that does not mean that nothing debate-worthy has changed. It doesn't change the fact that it is occupied. And please, every organisations agree on the fact that it is a humanitarian disaster.
No one disputes that fact and everyone has called for a cease fire, including the government in the West Bank. However, Hamas in Gaza has refused and continues to fire rockets. They flat out rejected the West Bank’s request for a cease fire. There is literally nothing you can do if one side will not stop attacking and is formally denying requests to do so.
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On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda."
I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well.
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On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well.
Are you implying the Iranian clergy and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood are comparable to the NY times, the independent or the NPR?
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On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well.
So there is no real point to the discussion because you are going to deny any sources that people provide as bias because you don't like where they came from? Also, compairing NPR to Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is hyperbolic at best.
On July 30 2014 05:24 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. Are you implying the Iranian clergy and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood are comparable to the NY times, the independent or the NPR?
Clearly they are like almost the same thing. The Associated Press, also pretty much like the KKK news letter.
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EPT
