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On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well.
US agreed to send aid to both Israel and Egypt when they signed their peace agreement. I don't know if all the aid is because of that but a rather large part should be.
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On July 30 2014 05:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. So there is no real point to the discussion because you are going to deny any sources that people provide as bias because you don't like where they came from? Also, compairing NPR to Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is hyperbolic at best. Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:24 Nyxisto wrote:On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. Are you implying the Iranian clergy and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood are comparable to the NY times, the independent or the NPR? Clearly they are like almost the same thing. The Associated Press, also pretty much like the KKK news letter.
Just talk facts and stop talking the autority of this source and this source. As I said, everything have been discussed already, dig in the thread.
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Northern Ireland23792 Posts
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals?
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On July 30 2014 05:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. So there is no real point to the discussion because you are going to deny any sources that people provide as bias because you don't like where they came from? Also, compairing NPR to Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is hyperbolic at best. On July 30 2014 05:24 Nyxisto wrote:On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. Are you implying the Iranian clergy and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood are comparable to the NY times, the independent or the NPR? Clearly they are like almost the same thing. The Associated Press, also pretty much like the KKK news letter. Just talk facts and stop talking the autority of this source and this source. As I said, everything have been discussed already, dig in the thread.
How are you going to talk facts without using independent media to confirm? You can't just call for facts and at the same time liken the Muslim Nrotherhood to the Associated Press.
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On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals?
Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations.
The only thing is Hamas is a resistance group who refuse to let their weapon down until a peace that completly fit their desire (a free palestinian state) has been acknowledge by every party.
On July 30 2014 05:32 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:30 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:25 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. So there is no real point to the discussion because you are going to deny any sources that people provide as bias because you don't like where they came from? Also, compairing NPR to Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is hyperbolic at best. On July 30 2014 05:24 Nyxisto wrote:On July 30 2014 05:22 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 30 2014 05:16 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:06 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright. He is absolutly right, it is propaganda, and most of the things that are wrong with what he read have already been adressed already. I don't see why you have the nerve to actually respond to him this way considering the 50 + page long of this thread and the fact that we discussed everything in the post already. For exemple, even the first sentence is a shame because not only Israel do not recognize the palestinian state today, but there are ruling from the international court of law that clearly state that palestinian land are occupied. I've got all the nerve you will ever need. And most of the articles are written by independent news sources like the New York Times, NPR, ABC and other agencies. They do not make propaganda by the strict definition of the word. If you don't agree or have different points to add, that is fine. But just dismissing them outright is simply a hyperbolic way to say "I don't like what they have to say, so I am going to disregard all of it as propaganda." I could also cite what the Iranian clergy, the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood has to say or just link an Al Jazeera article and you'd say it's biased. The USA has been giving trillions of dollars to Israel for reasons "unknown", it's a reasonable assumption that the media there is going to favour Israel as well. Are you implying the Iranian clergy and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood are comparable to the NY times, the independent or the NPR? Clearly they are like almost the same thing. The Associated Press, also pretty much like the KKK news letter. Just talk facts and stop talking the autority of this source and this source. As I said, everything have been discussed already, dig in the thread. How are you going to talk facts without using independent media to confirm? You can't just call for facts and at the same time liken the Muslim Nrotherhood to the Associated Press.
I gave you one fact : Israel is still occupying gaza, so the first sentence is wrong. No need of washington, if you disagree you can check the UN or even the CIA website about gaza, it says OCCUPIED TERRITORY.
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On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations.
Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim.
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On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim.
That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians.
The unification of palestinian under one banner, what some Israeli media call the "peace offensive", has been made on the ground that they accept the two state solution - and under that banner there is both the Hamas and the Fatah.
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On July 30 2014 04:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 04:27 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 04:02 KaHydrA wrote:Israel was the only country that gave the Palestinian's independence out of the other countries that occupied Gaza: Turkey, Britain and Egypt. In return, Israel receives rockets from Gaza, and threats of eradication. Hamas is behind in military capabilities to Israel, thus they seek international sympathy for human deaths while stockpiling rockets in civilian infrastructures and building extensive terror tunnels. Most Gazan rockets fired into Israel at populated areas are intercepted by the Iron Dome. The Israel Defense Force(IDF) marks the structures the rockets were fire then retaliates. Given that these structures are civilian buildings as well, the IDF uses a procedure to evacuate the buildings. However Hamas openly warns their civilians to ignore warnings to evacuate. During the IDF offensive on Gaza, the claim that weapons are stored in civilian buildings is validated when the IDF finds 20 rockets inside a UN Gaza School. According to Jodi Rudoren of the New York Times, the extensive tunnels are built wide enough to fit two person moving past each other. These tunnels are entered from homes and mosques, eventually exiting on the Israeli side. One use for these tunnels is to kidnap. For example, the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was kidnapped from of one these tunnels and held for five years until Israel exchanged one thousand Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit. Instead of living peacefully with Israel and building a working economy with international aid, Palestinians elected Hamas and militarized Gaza. Hamas is equally responsible if not more for putting civilians in danger while caching weapons and building tunnels. It's sad to see women and children die, but blindly siding with Hamas is unacceptable. + Show Spoiler [work cited] + AP. "Rockets Found at UN Gaza School Went Missing." ABC News. ABC News Network, 23 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Hamas Tells Civilians to Ignore Warning Notices from the Israeli Army. Dir. Palwatch. Perf. Hamas. YouTube. YouTube, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Harris, Emily. "The Long History Of The Gaza Tunnels." NPR. NPR, 26 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Rudoren, Jodi. "Tunnels Lead Right to the Heart of Israeli Fear." The New York Times. The New York Times, 28 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014.
Taylor, Adam. "Video: This Is What an Israeli ‘roof Knock’ Looks like." Washington Post. The Washington Post, 14 July 2014. Web. 29 July 2014. If you're coming here to cut and paste Israeli propaganda unrelated to the current discussion then do yourself a favor and save your energy. What you're speaking of was discussed many pages ago and at least in my view shown to be a very convenient version of the truth at best, if not total lies. Where is this independent Palestinian state located that you speak of? DinoMight, knock it off with calling everything you disagree with Israeli propaganda. I cannot think of a more hyperbolic statement that mutes any chance of discussion. All of his sources are independent news agencies, including NPR, which is very critical of Israeli. If you disagree with the points made in the articles, address them, but do not dismiss them outright.
Propaganda followed by hyperlinks is still propaganda. Where is this independent Palestine that he claims exists (that Israel has opposed recognizing at the UN)? What exactly is a terror tunnel (they are tunnels, not terror tunnels).
Citing news doesn't make something not propaganda. Writing it in a way that has a clear agenda does. I don't think I'm wrong here.
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On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians.
And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources?
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On July 30 2014 05:39 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources?
This I also already responded to : Hamas will never accept Israel's legitimacy. That's it, but they acknowledge the two state solution : it is a word play because they refuse to lose face.
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On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals?
They view it as the only way they have of fighting back against an oppressive Israeli regime. Granted, I agree with you that it probably does more harm than good, but they are very desperate. Living conditions in Gaza are horrendous - simply go on youtube and you'll find all you need to see.
Goes back to what I said a few pages ago - they won't stop until Israel meets their set of demands, but Israel won't stop until they stop. So for now it looks like the status quo will be maintained for a while longer...
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On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. The unification of palestinian under one banner, what some Israeli media call the "peace offensive", has been made on the ground that they accept the two state solution - and under that banner there is both the Hamas and the Fatah.
Does every single argument you make start with the word "propaganda"? Do you have anything else to say because "everything you say thats bad about Hamas is wrong and lies from Israel"?
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On July 30 2014 05:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. The unification of palestinian under one banner, what some Israeli media call the "peace offensive", has been made on the ground that they accept the two state solution - and under that banner there is both the Hamas and the Fatah. Does every single argument you make start with the word "propaganda"? Do you have anything else to say because "everything you say thats bad about Hamas is wrong and lies from Israel"?
Well that's like the same argument Netanyahu make so yeah that's propaganda.
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On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals?
They want blockades lifted and greater access to the sea and other issues addressed. They have almost no economy in Gaza and few services, so their people are in a pretty bad state. The main problem is that the reason Israel has imposed the blockades and other restricting is a fear of violence against their population.
Its could be one of the dumbest conflicts in the history of the world. One side is restricting the other because they fear violence and the other side is using violence to stop force them to lift the restrictions. Both sides are super tired of it, but neither will back down and both have justified fears of the other side.
There are some other undertones of stealing land and so on, but that is the core issues in Gaza right now is all about them getting basic services and access to their sea port.
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On July 30 2014 05:40 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:39 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources? This I also already responded to : Hamas will never accept Israel's legitimacy. That's it, but they acknowledge the two state solution : it is a word play because they refuse to lose face.
I think it's a quite simple thing to understand...
They think Israel is illegitimate and don't recognize its right to exist. But, they are willing to compromise and work with a 2 state solution for pragmatic purposes.
It's like saying I think my boss is a fucking moron and he doesn't know jack shit about (whatever), but for pragmatic purposes I'll work with him. One statement is ideological the other is pragmatic.
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On July 30 2014 05:40 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:39 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources? This I also already responded to : Hamas will never accept Israel's legitimacy. That's it, but they acknowledge the two state solution : it is a word play because they refuse to lose face.
Sorry but that is pure speculation. They might also plot to continue to support terror campaigns in Israel and use the Palestinian state as a staging ground. In order for the two state solution to work, both sides need to recognize each other and their respective borders.
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On July 30 2014 05:45 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:40 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:39 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources? This I also already responded to : Hamas will never accept Israel's legitimacy. That's it, but they acknowledge the two state solution : it is a word play because they refuse to lose face. Sorry but that is pure speculation. They might also plot to continue to support terror campaigns in Israel and use the Palestinian state as a staging ground. In order for the two state solution to work, both sides need to recognize each other and their respective borders.
Well we all know what isn't "speculation". Isreali government and the settlers recognising the respective borders of 1967.
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On July 30 2014 05:44 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? They want blockades lifted and greater access to the sea and other issues addressed. They have almost no economy in Gaza and few services, so their people are in a pretty bad state. The main problem is that the reason Israel has imposed the blockades and other restricting is a fear of violence against their population. Its could be one of the dumbest conflicts in the history of the world. One side is restricting the other because they fear violence and the other side is using violence to stop force them to lift the restrictions. Both sides are super tired of it, but neither will back down and both have justified fears of the other side. There are some other undertones of stealing land and so on, but that is the core issues in Gaza right now is all about them getting basic services and access to their sea port.
Agreed. The main issue right now in Gaza are the living conditions resulting from the blockade. The West Bank has been much more peaceful despite of course the conflicts revolving around land disputes and settlements etc. Gazans living conditions are an absolute disaster at the moment, but the rocketing isn't helping their cause. And of course there is this vicious circle Plansix mentioned.
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On July 30 2014 05:45 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:40 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:39 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:35 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? Hamas are ready for peace more or less, it's Israel who does not want because they want to expand their territory to Eretz Israel. And that has been said by president jimmy carter, and more or less by US high officials who were there during the last peace negociations. Hamas has no interest in peace with Israel. They are an extremist group that garner support by fueling a conflict that neither side can truly win. And please provide an independent source for such a claim. That's the type of view Israeli propaganda share, the truth is there are statements - I gave two exemple in this thread, one with an interview of a high Hamas officials, who clearly state that they will accept anything that will be accepted by the majority of palestinians. And I provided a link with an interview from this year, where a senior Hamas leader clearly states, that they will never accept Israel. So where are your sources? This I also already responded to : Hamas will never accept Israel's legitimacy. That's it, but they acknowledge the two state solution : it is a word play because they refuse to lose face. Sorry but that is pure speculation. They might also plot to continue to support terror campaigns in Israel and use the Palestinian state as a staging ground. In order for the two state solution to work, both sides need to recognize each other and their respective borders.
Israel has not been willing to offer any acceptable borders to the prospected state of Palestine, that's why every peace talks broke down so far.
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On July 30 2014 05:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 05:44 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 05:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
Probably been answered or theorised upon already, but what is Hamas' end game here with their continued belligerence? Evidently it's not military victory over Israel as that would be ridiculous, but then what? Engaging international pressure or shoring up their support among the denizens of the West Bank?
To me it seems grossly irresponsible to fire rockets at a nation that has shown willingness to respond with exponentially more effective weaponry. I'm not disputing their grievance, but what does this do towards accomplishing their goals? They want blockades lifted and greater access to the sea and other issues addressed. They have almost no economy in Gaza and few services, so their people are in a pretty bad state. The main problem is that the reason Israel has imposed the blockades and other restricting is a fear of violence against their population. Its could be one of the dumbest conflicts in the history of the world. One side is restricting the other because they fear violence and the other side is using violence to stop force them to lift the restrictions. Both sides are super tired of it, but neither will back down and both have justified fears of the other side. There are some other undertones of stealing land and so on, but that is the core issues in Gaza right now is all about them getting basic services and access to their sea port. Agreed. The main issue right now in Gaza are the living conditions resulting from the blockade. The West Bank has been much more peaceful despite of course the conflicts revolving around land disputes and settlements etc. Gazans living conditions are an absolute disaster at the moment, but the rocketing isn't helping their cause. And of course there is this vicious circle Plansix mentioned.
Those tunnel networks did not help either. I think that just ratcheted up the justification for further military action. And that is the problem with the issue right now, that both sides keep providing the other side with justification for further violence. Even the government of the West Bank is asking Hamas to stop fighting and they simply refuse to do so.
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EPT
