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the possibility that the Jews need to do without is unacceptable
The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously. They have taken a mile and will not give an inch. Why? Because the land is rightfully theirs because it was given to them by god.
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This is NOT a religious fight. The first zionists were secular jews from the left. It is a colonisation situation, not a religious war.
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On July 30 2014 00:45 Jormundr wrote:The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously.
You could say the same for Nyxisto after linking what amounts to Israeli propaganda.
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On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 21:55 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group. No they didn't. And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim. They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea."
Well they almost settled in Uganda.. so.
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On July 30 2014 00:44 Liquid`Drone wrote: The settlers ARE the reason why this conflict seems completely impossible to resolve. It even might be that they've actually taken so much that we're past the point where Palestinians could grow to accept the current borders even if they weren't further displaced.
This is also not true. Israeli settlements in the West Bank physically actually occupy 1% of the territory.
"
The actual buildings of the Israeli settlements cover only 1 percent of the West Bank, but their jurisdiction and their regional councils extend to about 42 percent of the West Bank, according to the Israeli NGO B'Tselem. Yesha Council chairman Dani Dayan disputes the figures and claims that the settlements only control 9.2 percent of the West Bank"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#West_Bank
What they do give Israel is some kind of political influence over the territory. After the experiences with the Gaza withdrawal Israel is afraid of having a "second Gaza" in the West bank,should they withdraw the settlements.
On July 30 2014 00:54 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:45 Jormundr wrote:the possibility that the Jews need to do without is unacceptable The last line on this page is why Israel's so called 'willingness to negotiate' cannot be taken seriously. You could say the same for Nyxisto after linking what amounts to Israeli propaganda.
Would you care to explain what part of the blogpost you think is 'Israeli propaganda'?
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On July 29 2014 23:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions.
The amount of strawmen, misrepresentations and fallacies you post in this thread is incredible. And it surprises me, because although I don't follow the U.S. politics thread as much as I used to it seemed to be that you tended to be a pretty sensible contributor. How can you possibly post what I just quoted after I repeatedly engaged you on the inefficiency of violence and what should actually be done in order to curtail Hamas' influence and limit their extremism? Do you just ignore information which challenges your views?
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On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 21:55 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group. No they didn't. And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim. They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea."
Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there.
Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish?
Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs?
The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous.
The several thousands of years of Jewish suffereing do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history.
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On July 30 2014 01:50 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2014 23:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions. The amount of strawmen, misrepresentations and fallacies you post in this thread is incredible. And it surprises me, because although I don't follow the U.S. politics thread as much as I used to it seemed to be that you tended to be a pretty sensible contributor. How can you possibly post what I quoted after I repeatedly engaged you on the inefficiency of violence and what should actually be done in order to curtail Hamas' influence and limit their extremism? Do you just ignore information which challenges your views?
I think the disengagement from Gaza was a pretty fucking big concession from the Israelian side. How did it curtail Hamas influence or extremism? And this strawman and misinformation accusations are just annoying. I try to stay away from any kind of biased source as far as possible. The blog that largely debunked the map is the first "personal opinion" piece I've posted in the whole thread.
at the post above:
Israel is not exclusively Jewish. 20% of the population are Muslims. The constitution guarantees a secular state with the principle of equality among the citizens. How consequently this has been practised in reality is up for debate.
Also Judaism in regards to the Israelian State is way more political,cultural and traditional rather than religious in character. A very large proportion of the Jewish population of Israel respects Jewish tradition and guidelines, but does not practice Judaism in the way Muslims practice Islam.
Regarding the second part of your post: Given the amount of persecution Jews have faced over the centuries, I think the creation of a state for protective purposes of their people is one of the more reasonable reasons in history to create a state. And as long as you're not founding your nation on the Antarctic it will always cause a lot of trouble. The parallels to colonialism are ridiculous. Colonialism invokes the picture of fat white European Kings sending their ships to exotic foreign lands. Founding a country out of self defence is literally the opposite.
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Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence.
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On July 30 2014 01:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 01:50 kwizach wrote:On July 29 2014 23:25 Nyxisto wrote:
Yeah, just like when they completely withdrew from Gaza, that really weakened the Hamas! Oh wait it didn't they just took over the whole god-damn thing and ramped their rocket attacks up by a few hundred percent.
I have the feeling the world has gotten appeasement addicted. Appease our dictator dear leader Vladimir Putin, our beloved Jihadists in the middle-east and why not Kim Jong-Un while we're at it? I start to think that they're all just misunderstood freedom fighters who only have the best of intentions. The amount of strawmen, misrepresentations and fallacies you post in this thread is incredible. And it surprises me, because although I don't follow the U.S. politics thread as much as I used to it seemed to be that you tended to be a pretty sensible contributor. How can you possibly post what I quoted after I repeatedly engaged you on the inefficiency of violence and what should actually be done in order to curtail Hamas' influence and limit their extremism? Do you just ignore information which challenges your views? I think the disengagement from Gaza was pretty fucking big concession of the Israelian side. How did it curtail Hamas influence or extremism? And this strawman and misinformation accusations are just annoying. I try to stay away from any kind of biased source as far as possible. The blog that largely debunked the map is the first "personal opinion" piece I've posted in the whole thread.
Think about what you're saying for a second. What is your long-term solution with regards to Hamas? Is it to keep Gaza an occupied territory, completely ignoring the fact that numerous organizations have pointed out that the living conditions are progressively deteriorating from an already low level, even without taking into account any Israeli military action, and that with the demographic pressure the area will be barely liveable by 2020 (see here for the UNRWA report I referenced earlier)? Is it to keep using military violence against Hamas and civilians alike, destroying countless more lives, reinforcing Hamas and its extremist wings (at the detriment of its pragmatic wing, which does exist - Hamas is not a monolithic entity contrary to how you keep representing it) in the process through anti-Israel resentment in the population, and at the same time increasing the number of rockets fired towards Israel? Is it to keep blocking the negotiations with Abbas and Fatah, leading only to disillusion among the Palestinian population with regards to the peace process and the possibility of being listened to by Israel - again reinforcing those calling for violence? How exactly is any of that supposed to bring more security to Israel (and how exactly is any of that supposed to be a humane way of dealing with other human beings?)?
Like I've repeatedly told you in the posts that you keep ignoring, resorting to military, diplomatic and institutional violence is completely counter-productive with regards to the objective of achieving peace and reducing the influence of Hamas.
On July 30 2014 01:56 Nyxisto wrote:
Israel is not exclusively Jewish. 20% of the population are Muslims. The constitution guarantees a secular state with the principle of equality among the citizens. How consequently this has been practised in reality is up for debate.
It is not up for debate. The discriminations against Israeli Arabas in Israel are, again, well-documented.
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On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence.
Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2.
Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt.
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On July 30 2014 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2. Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt.
The land was under British control until such a time that the locals could stand on their own feet as per the league of nations agreement after ww1. The Balfour declaration specified that the Jewish state could be created in Palestine IF the Arabs were okay with it, which they were not.
You forget that at the time Israelis were killing British and Arabs in the region and were classified as terrorists by the British government.
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On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 21:55 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group. No they didn't. And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim. They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history.
The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have?
So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before...
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On July 30 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2. Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt. The land was under British control until such a time that the locals could stand on their own feet as per the league of nations agreement after ww1. The Balfour declaration specified that the Jewish state could be created in Palestine IF the Arabs were okay with it, which they were not. You forget that at the time Israelis were killing British and Arabs in the region and were classified as terrorists by the British government.
Ok, that was like 50 years ago, what is your point? We were at war with Japan at one time, but now we get along great. I mean, how much farther back can we go to claim land, because I am pretty sure I could claim some sweet land in Sweden if I dug far enough back.
This is the problem with the topic, people go back to the beginning of time to try and prove they should own the land. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because Israel isn't leaving any time soon.
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On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 21:55 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Hamas has recognised the Isreali State. They just don't recognise it as a Jewish state, and quite rightly too, as no other country recognises another country as solely for a an unidentified religious or ethnic group. No they didn't. And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:"Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim. They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before...
I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel.
Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there.
I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement.
The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region.
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On July 30 2014 02:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2. Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt. The land was under British control until such a time that the locals could stand on their own feet as per the league of nations agreement after ww1. The Balfour declaration specified that the Jewish state could be created in Palestine IF the Arabs were okay with it, which they were not. You forget that at the time Israelis were killing British and Arabs in the region and were classified as terrorists by the British government. Ok, that was like 50 years ago, what is your point? We were at war with Japan at one time, but now we get along great. I mean, how much farther back can we go to claim land, because I am pretty sure I could claim some sweet land in Sweden if I dug far enough back. This is the problem with the topic, people go back to the beginning of time to try and prove they should own the land. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because Israel isn't leaving any time soon.
See my previous post. I'm not bringing this up because I want Israelis to pack up and go home. I'm bringing this up because to understand any conflict it's important to know how it began. This is the only way you can begin to resolve it.
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And no offence fellow Americans, but if you think Israel's founding was brutal and destructive I guess you should better pack your bags right now, because it weren't the Israelis who handed over small pox infested blankets to the indigenous people of America.
And regarding the founding of Israel: Actually even the most hardcore Zionists rarely bring up religious scripture as a legitimation for the country. The largest group of Israelis identifies as 'secular Jewish'.
On July 30 2014 02:26 kwizach wrote:
It is not up for debate. The discriminations against Israeli Arabas in Israel are, again, well-documented.
The discrimination against Arabs is well documented. As is the discrimination against black people in the United States or the discrimination of Turkish immigrants in Germany. That doesn't mean that these countries are trying to form some kind of two class society.
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On July 30 2014 02:51 Nyxisto wrote:
And no offence fellow Americans, but if you think Israel's founding was brutal and destructive I guess you should better pack your bags right now, because it weren't the Israelis who handed over small pox infested blankets to the indigenous people of America.
And regarding the founding of Israel: Actually even the most hardcore Zionists rarely bring up religious scripture as a legitimation for the country. The largest group of Israelis identifies as 'secular Jewish'.
What does this even mean?
You make a completely unrelated comment somehow trying to justify something awful Israel did based on something similarly awful that American settlers did hundreds of years ago.
Then you make a pointless comment about how Israelis are secular.
No shit. Did you even read my post? The whole conflict is political, not religious.
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On July 30 2014 02:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:37 BlueSpace wrote:On July 30 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 00:00 BlueSpace wrote:On July 29 2014 23:47 DinoMight wrote:On July 29 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 23:24 EtherealBlade wrote:On July 29 2014 23:18 Big J wrote:On July 29 2014 21:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 29 2014 21:55 BlueSpace wrote:[quote] No they didn't. And please read a bit about Hamas. They deny the existence of the Holocaust and claim that Israel is seeking to conquer the entire region:[quote] Hamas is not a simple resistance movement, that just wants to create a Palestinian state and life in peace with their neighbors. There is a legitimate claim for the Palestinians to create their own state, but Hamas are not good emissaries of that claim. They don't have a right to deny the holocaust? They way the israelis are destroying their houses and building more settlements and be an hostile force to almost all their neighbors seems to justify their believes that they are trying to grab more land for themselves. The right to deny the holocaust? wtf??? Why Hamas' opinion on the holocaust matters in any way is beyond my understanding. They have nothing to do with it, and are free to think whatever they may want. If one thinks the holocaust didn't happen, that person should just be treated like the ones that were responsible for it. (my opinion) Why it matters? Because that's the whole justification for the existance of Israel. The idea behind denying the holocaust is to deny Isreal the right of existance. To justify that extinction of Israel. The Holocaust is irrelevant to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Let me clarify: Zionism was an established movement long before the Holocaust. Even before World War I, Zionists were discussing the idea of a state exclusively for Jews. The British tried to create a state for the Jews (mainly to rid themselves of their own Jewish population). This faced resistance from many British Jews who saw themselves as Englishmen, not simply Jews. Fast forward to WWII and the Holocaust. Finally, Zionism got the catalyst it needed to succeed. Within 4 years of WWII and the downfall of the Nazi regime, Israel was created. The problem was that Israel was created as an exclusive Jewish state on top of land that was already inhabited by other people (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Arab Jews). When Israel says that you "deny our right to exist," what they're doing is tapping into the guilty feeling that the world has about the Holocaust and using it to justify their occupation of, essentially, Arab land. They're twisting the phrase to mean "you deny the Jewish people" the right to exist, LIKE THE NAZIS! I think it's 100% possible to deny Israel's right to exist and not be anti-semetic or prejudice against Jews in any way. I think the Holocaust was a terrible tragedy in which millions of innocent Jews, gays, mentally retarded people, gypsies, Russians, Poles, etc. died. But Israel's existence as a country is not justified simply by the suffering of the Jews. Who's to say that Gypsies shouldn't have their own country? This is a political decision, and where the line is drawn for me between the two. The support to the Zionist cause was rather small before the Holocaust and the events leading up to it. Also Israel is not exclusively Jewish and if it comes to freedom of religion, they are light years ahead of most other nations in the middle east. Also the suffering of the Jews doesn't justify the existence of the Jewish state. It's more the several thousands of years of history. It's not like the Zionist picked up a map and said: "Let's go there. I always wanted to settle close to the dead sea." Israel IS exclusively Jewish. It refers to itself as "the Jewish state", allows others to refer to it as such, and actively encourages (only) Jews to settle there. Tell me, what are the citizenship requirements for Israel? Don't they award citizenship to people JUST FOR BEING JEWISH? Doesn't the Israeli government sponsor trips to Israel as well as housing for people SIMPLY because they are Jewish? Does Israel do the same for non-Jewish Europeans or Arabs? The only reason there are ANY arabs in Israel, as I stated before in this thread, is because the territory that is now Israel started out being 100% Arabs. Flaunting what is now 20% as proof that Israel isn't exclusive is ludicrous. The several thousands of years of Jewish suffering do not justify a Jewish state either, IF THAT STATE IS CREATED AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is precisely what I'm talking about. Israel is and has been trying to use people's guilt towards the historic discrimination against Jews to justify the illegal land grab that is Israel, ignoring the fact that many other kinds of peoples have been discriminated against in history. The Jews went to Israel because of long history. At the time they started to settle "again" only a small minority lived there which massively grew when people fled from Europe. And as I said before the suffering in my opinion does not justify anything. But please accept the fact, that the Jews were persecuted in Europe and later exterminated on an unprecedented scale, which set off a massive migratory movement. And while I don't defend the theory that the Holocaust is a singular event in human history, there are only very few ethnicities, that were ever persecuted and exterminated on the same scale. Of course you can now claim, that they should have stayed in Europe and just waited to see what would happen next. But be honest now, would you have? So I do fully understand the impetus to settle in Israel. Was the entire thing a giant screwup afterwards? Obviously, as we have a state that is in perpetual warfare. But they came for a good reason and nobody that looks at the history of Europe in the early/mid 20th century can deny that. It sucks, but it happened. And yes I agree, Israel has been illegally occupying land. But they will never have a discussion about that, if people like you continue to tell a narrative, which ends with all Jews are deported from Israel. It's just counter-constructive. Where are they supposed to go? Some type of camps? Or maybe Madagascar? They never heard that story before... I'm not saying all Jews should be deported back to their countries. Obviously, Israel is there to stay and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But I think a history lesson is in order. I don't think a lot of the pro-Israel crowd fully understands the reasoning behind the antagonism towards Israel. Many view it as anti-semitism, "denying Jews the right to exist" is a phrase that comes to mind very often. They don't understand that the root of the conflict is entirely political. Jews had been living in that area of the world for a very long time before Israel and faced no persecution. In fact, persecuted European Jews (during the Inquisition) fled to the Ottoman Empire because they were safe there. I have Jewish friends that I would hide in my house from the Nazis. But that doesn't mean that I can't then say that I don't believe Israel should exist. Denying Israel the right to exist is not an attack on the Jewish people. It's an attack on a political movement. The sooner people realize this, the closer we will get to resolving the conflict in the region.
So what exactly is your point then? That saying Israel shouldn't exist is not Anti-Semitic? You can probably claim that in a vacuum, but not in a real political debate. The safety of the Jewish population is tied to the state of Israel and if you accept the fact that the Jews won't go away, you should also accept that fact that the Jewish state has a right to exist. I'm all for a multi ethnic state in Israel, but that idea is dead by now. Not going to happen in the next 100 years.
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On July 30 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2014 02:43 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote:On July 30 2014 02:30 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2014 02:24 DinoMight wrote:
Your post literally refers to my post then proceeds to ignore everything I wrote.
I'm saying the 20% are a historic artifact leftover from a place that once was 100%, not a population that exists now because Israeli inclusion.
You didn't answer my point on Israeli citizenship requirement which along with the flag are the two most telling signs of how exclusive this country is.
Israel was not founded in self defense. Israel was founded by people who believed that they deserved the land more than others because God gave it to them. And they stole it through violent and unethical terrorist tactics.
Jewish suffering has never and will never be a valid justification for a country founded on other people's land through violence. Except the land was under British rule and being used as a place for Jewish and Palestinian refugees to live. Saying the "took the land by force" is a bit much, since they were living there already after WW2. Really if you look at the history of the land, no one really owned it at the time of dispute. Sure someone will say it was ours first, but if you go back through time, no one owns that cursed pile of dirt. The land was under British control until such a time that the locals could stand on their own feet as per the league of nations agreement after ww1. The Balfour declaration specified that the Jewish state could be created in Palestine IF the Arabs were okay with it, which they were not. You forget that at the time Israelis were killing British and Arabs in the region and were classified as terrorists by the British government. Ok, that was like 50 years ago, what is your point? We were at war with Japan at one time, but now we get along great. I mean, how much farther back can we go to claim land, because I am pretty sure I could claim some sweet land in Sweden if I dug far enough back. This is the problem with the topic, people go back to the beginning of time to try and prove they should own the land. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because Israel isn't leaving any time soon. See my previous post. I'm not bringing this up because I want Israelis to pack up and go home. I'm bringing this up because to understand any conflict it's important to know how it began. This is the only way you can begin to resolve it.
Personally, I think it’s the worst way to resolve it. No one is going to right 50 years of war, violence and death. Bringing it up only gives people more excuses to keep fighting and to justify their actions.
Both sides of this conflict suck for different reasons and it don’t matter how they got here, they are here now. The question is how to you stop the violence long enough for people to have some sort of rational discussion. Until then, it’s all pointless finger pointing, since most the people involved with the initial conflict are dead.
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EPT
