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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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On December 04 2012 21:08 Romantic wrote:
So how exactly is something classified a mental disorder and do transgendered people fit that definition or not? If this is just a political thing then it is disappointing but predictable. If there is some standard and transgendered people do not fit that standard then ok.
The current version of the DSM characterizes a mental disorder as "a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual [which] is associated with present distress...or disability...or with a significant increased risk of suffering." It also notes that "...no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of 'mental disorder'...different situations call for different definitions". It states that "there is no assumption that each category of mental disorder is a completely discrete entity with absolute boundaries dividing it from other mental disorders or from no mental disorder" (APA, 1994 and 2000). There are attempts to adjust the wording for the upcoming DSM-V.
Quote wiki.
Basically saying that it's a list of things that are in some way "bad" for the individual even if the individual doesn't recognize it as such.
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On December 04 2012 21:01 DigiGnar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are. You're forgetting about mental harm. While changing may bring "harm" in one sense, it can be a "cure" for the depression one has when they aren't the sex they feel they should be. They aren't who they are. Otherwise, why would they feel so?
Mental harm can be helped with support and possibly drugs if needed.
Physical mutilation is unfixable, and the supposed purpose to commit this mutilation (gender reassignment) is a pipe dream far beyond modern technology. They will never be the opposite gender so why try? You are only doomed to failure and possibly increased mental harm and misery.
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On December 04 2012 21:07 sephiria wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are. Well, what do you tell people who suffer from depression? just be happy? And it is absolutely beyond me how you can put the abstract concept of what gender and sex should be above the well being of another person. It's not like YOU lose anything if they actually have a chance to survive past age 30. I think you sound a lot like someone talking about cattle.
You say you are putting their wellbeing first by supporting and even encouraging people to do irreparable physical damage to themselves.
I would argue you are just seeking to increase your own social status by supporting trendy causes.
Destroying your physically fit and healthy body to chase an unachievable dream is a bad decision. I think I am putting people's wellbeing first by saying: don't do such a thing.
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On December 04 2012 21:20 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:01 DigiGnar wrote:On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are. You're forgetting about mental harm. While changing may bring "harm" in one sense, it can be a "cure" for the depression one has when they aren't the sex they feel they should be. They aren't who they are. Otherwise, why would they feel so? Mental harm can be helped with support and possibly drugs if needed. Physical mutilation is unfixable, and the supposed purpose to commit this mutilation (gender reassignment) is a pipe dream far beyond modern technology. They will never be the opposite gender so why try? You are only doomed to failure and possibly increased mental harm and misery.
You aren't addressing the actual issue.
The question is, let's assume a FtM transsexual for now:
a) Stay in a female body
b) Get surgery to obtain a "not fully functional male body" including all the associated risks.
If b) makes those people happier, gets rid of their depressions and lets them lead a better life than a), why not? The question YOU are raising however is "Is it worse to be a non-functional man or a functional woman if you actually want to be a man?"
I have no clue on the data for that question. Do you? How many transgenders are there for who their problems get worse after surgery? While I can understand the thought process behind it just assuming that the "forever only half-way there"-thing is definitely worse than not being closer at all is something that's bad isn't a valid conclusion.
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On December 04 2012 21:20 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:08 Romantic wrote:
So how exactly is something classified a mental disorder and do transgendered people fit that definition or not? If this is just a political thing then it is disappointing but predictable. If there is some standard and transgendered people do not fit that standard then ok. Show nested quote +The current version of the DSM characterizes a mental disorder as "a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual [which] is associated with present distress...or disability...or with a significant increased risk of suffering." It also notes that "...no definition adequately specifies precise boundaries for the concept of 'mental disorder'...different situations call for different definitions". It states that "there is no assumption that each category of mental disorder is a completely discrete entity with absolute boundaries dividing it from other mental disorders or from no mental disorder" (APA, 1994 and 2000). There are attempts to adjust the wording for the upcoming DSM-V. Quote wiki. Basically saying that it's a list of things that are in some way "bad" for the individual even if the individual doesn't recognize it as such.
So... being transgendered is clearly a mental disorder and the change is a political one and\or sensitivity police in action? I am not surprised. White is black, the sky is the ground, mental conditions which clearly increase the risk of harm are not mental conditions which clearly increase the risk of harm.
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On December 04 2012 21:08 Selendis wrote:I'm a girl who is dating a trans girl, which doesn't make me an expert but I know bullshit when I see it... Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
1. A fully functional male body that the female brain isn't designed to handle. 2. You know who else thinks they are female? Females. Coincidence? I think not. 3. On a cellular level men and women are exactly the same, it's just a matter of gene expression induced by hormones. Change the hormones to E and the cells behave exactly as you would expect the cells to behave in a cisgendered female, physically the body changes as a result. Arguably the body becomes much more female than male. As for surgery, female reproductive organs are superior to male, it's an upgrade, not mutilation. Show nested quote +
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
Many have tried the strategy that you suggest and it usually ends in suicide, which really is a good option if you're trans, because the alternative is living in a nightmare from which you can never awake from (save with the power of estrogen).
You are dating a woman who mutilated her body to be more like a man, or a man who mutilated his to be more like a woman? Sorry I don't understand trans- speak sometimes.
You claim women's genitalia are "superior" (bigoted much?) but that's irrelevant because a man can never have women's genitalia. He can only mutilate his own male genitalia. After mutilation he still doesn't have female genitalia.
I wonder what is more of a nightmare: realizing you are in fact the gender you were born as and wishing you hadn't done irreparable damage to yourself, or just accepting your perfectly healthy body for what it is. In reality they can never have the body of the opposite gender so no matter how hard you try this "nightmare" can't be taken away with modern technology.
User was banned for this post.
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And that's how you make millions of people healthy in an instant!
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On December 04 2012 21:27 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:20 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 21:01 DigiGnar wrote:On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are. You're forgetting about mental harm. While changing may bring "harm" in one sense, it can be a "cure" for the depression one has when they aren't the sex they feel they should be. They aren't who they are. Otherwise, why would they feel so? Mental harm can be helped with support and possibly drugs if needed. Physical mutilation is unfixable, and the supposed purpose to commit this mutilation (gender reassignment) is a pipe dream far beyond modern technology. They will never be the opposite gender so why try? You are only doomed to failure and possibly increased mental harm and misery. You aren't addressing the actual issue. The question is, let's assume a FtM transsexual for now: a) Stay in a female body b) Get surgery to obtain a "not fully functional male body" including all the associated risks. If b) makes those people happier, gets rid of their depressions and lets them lead a better life than a), why not? The question YOU are raising however is "Is it worse to be a non-functional man or a functional woman if you actually want to be a man?" I have no clue on the data for that question. Do you? How many transgenders are there for who their problems get worse after surgery? While I can understand the thought process behind it just assuming that the "forever only half-way there"-thing is definitely worse than not being closer at all is something that's bad isn't a valid conclusion.
I am considering how to approach this disorder for treatment purposes. The options are:
1. Address the physical aspects, attempt to "transition", end up with a mutilated body that can never be the opposite gender. In the end the patient is physically damaged and can never be healed. This supposed "treatment" which could never have been successful in the first place is only causing harm.
2. Address the mental aspects. Teach people it is okay to accept themselves for who they are. Prescribe mental drugs if needed.
Now it seems plainly obvious to me that only one of these treatment options even has a possibility of success. Even if you can nurse an extreme level of mental delusion in the case of #1 to convince patients their mutilated body is as good as the real thing, you have left them physically unable to reproduce or feel sensations they were able to with a healthy body.
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Better late than never I guess, so much crap in that manual that is considered as a "mental disorder" that really isn't. Gay people used to be labeled as severe mentally disturbed according to the SDM as well.
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A disorder is whatever is different from the standard model.
They are renaming it to stop retarded people from thinking it's actually a "problem".
A lot of shit is mental disorder including depression and most of the causes of an abnormally high IQ, some are positive some negative.
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In reality they can never have the body of the opposite gender so no matter how hard you try this "nightmare" can't be taken away with modern technology.
According to all the people in the thread with actual personal experience, it seems like surgery and hormonal therapy does indeed improve these peoples mental health and quality of life, so you are clearly wrong.
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I have never met anyone who is against gender reassignment surgery who also fully understands the patient's situation. People against it are ALWAYS of the "ew that's gross" and "why would they do that" type, and simply don't understand so they can't empathize.
There is one thing I'm curious about though. Suppose a female persona is in the possession of a male body, and naturally does not feel fully comfortable with the male aspects of the body.
But theoretically let's say this person lives in an all-male environment and has never seen a woman. What would the effects be? Would she know what she is supposed to resemble physically?
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This strikes me as a purely diplomatical move and I'm not sure if it's for the best.
A mental disorder is a state of mind with debilitating or negative impact on a persons life. If you hate your life because you perceive yourself to be born with the wrong gender thats a state of mind with debilitating or negative impact on your life.
Therefore it is a mental disorder.
I don't doubt that behind every transgender person there is a lively and friendly mind. However, that doesn't justify making it seem like it's completely normal and/or healthy.
Putting this into perspective if someone was to believe he was born as Michael Jackson he would have to be considered mentally healthy.
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On December 04 2012 21:40 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:27 r.Evo wrote:On December 04 2012 21:20 stevelouise wrote:On December 04 2012 21:01 DigiGnar wrote:On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are. You're forgetting about mental harm. While changing may bring "harm" in one sense, it can be a "cure" for the depression one has when they aren't the sex they feel they should be. They aren't who they are. Otherwise, why would they feel so? Mental harm can be helped with support and possibly drugs if needed. Physical mutilation is unfixable, and the supposed purpose to commit this mutilation (gender reassignment) is a pipe dream far beyond modern technology. They will never be the opposite gender so why try? You are only doomed to failure and possibly increased mental harm and misery. You aren't addressing the actual issue. The question is, let's assume a FtM transsexual for now: a) Stay in a female body b) Get surgery to obtain a "not fully functional male body" including all the associated risks. If b) makes those people happier, gets rid of their depressions and lets them lead a better life than a), why not? The question YOU are raising however is "Is it worse to be a non-functional man or a functional woman if you actually want to be a man?" I have no clue on the data for that question. Do you? How many transgenders are there for who their problems get worse after surgery? While I can understand the thought process behind it just assuming that the "forever only half-way there"-thing is definitely worse than not being closer at all is something that's bad isn't a valid conclusion. I am considering how to approach this disorder for treatment purposes. The options are: 1. Address the physical aspects, attempt to "transition", end up with a mutilated body that can never be the opposite gender. In the end the patient is physically damaged and can never be healed. This supposed "treatment" which could never have been successful in the first place is only causing harm. 2. Address the mental aspects. Teach people it is okay to accept themselves for who they are. Prescribe mental drugs if needed. Now it seems plainly obvious to me that only one of these treatment options even has a possibility of success. Even if you can nurse an extreme level of mental delusion in the case of #1 to convince patients their mutilated body is as good as the real thing, you have left them physically unable to reproduce or feel sensations they were able to with a healthy body.
You talk complete cobblers.
In the medical field, therapy and then (if deemed appropriate) courses of HRT are the treatment for people with Gender dysphoria. Your position rides off so much cis-privilege its amusing to me, we could talk all day about how I think your ideas about what the Trans* experience is, are terrible, but staying on topic, EVEN if the APA still considered GID a disorder, no right minded medical professional would conduct themselves as you would desire.
In short, trans people do not desire your treatment, medical professionals would not agree to it, it amounts to erasure.
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On December 04 2012 21:32 stevelouise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:08 Selendis wrote:I'm a girl who is dating a trans girl, which doesn't make me an expert but I know bullshit when I see it... On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
1. A fully functional male body that the female brain isn't designed to handle. 2. You know who else thinks they are female? Females. Coincidence? I think not. 3. On a cellular level men and women are exactly the same, it's just a matter of gene expression induced by hormones. Change the hormones to E and the cells behave exactly as you would expect the cells to behave in a cisgendered female, physically the body changes as a result. Arguably the body becomes much more female than male. As for surgery, female reproductive organs are superior to male, it's an upgrade, not mutilation.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
Many have tried the strategy that you suggest and it usually ends in suicide, which really is a good option if you're trans, because the alternative is living in a nightmare from which you can never awake from (save with the power of estrogen). You are dating a woman who mutilated her body to be more like a man, or a man who mutilated his to be more like a woman? Sorry I don't understand trans- speak sometimes.
She is dating a woman who was born male, but became a woman. BTW why do you feel the need to use words like "mutilated"? Attacking those who are different from you by describing them with unpleasant words is not a sign of a person who is being fair and logical.
I wonder what is more of a nightmare: realizing you are in fact the gender you were born as and wishing you hadn't done irreparable damage to yourself, or just accepting your perfectly healthy body for what it is.
What is the point of this statement? It is extremely rare for someone to go through a sex change operation, then realize "oh wait I was the other gender after all, I wish I didn't have this done".
And who cares if that unfortunate situation is more of a nightmare than living as a gender that is not your own? It has no relevance to anything being discussed.
In reality they can never have the body of the opposite gender so no matter how hard you try this "nightmare" can't be taken away with modern technology.
True, they can't have a 100% perfectly functional body of the opposite gender... but that isn't relevant. The choice is between a 90% perfect body, or one that's completely wrong.
According to your logic, if someone loses their leg they shouldn't get an artifical limb, because it'll never be an actual human leg.
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According to a very close psychologist friend of mine this completely wrong, transgender people are one of the most messed up people alive...They are also extremely likely to commit suicide, and most of them are living through terrible depression...
You don't literally feel good in your own body, that is a serious condition, and people shouldn't have prejudices against such people because they live a very complicated and painful life as it is ( most of them, I'm sure there are some exceptions ).
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I wonder what will happen if it gets proven that pedophilia is not a mental disorder.
User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2012 21:50 KrosusZorg wrote:Show nested quote + In reality they can never have the body of the opposite gender so no matter how hard you try this "nightmare" can't be taken away with modern technology. According to all the people in the thread with actual personal experience, it seems like surgery and hormonal therapy does indeed improve these peoples mental health and quality of life, so you are clearly wrong.
To be frank, the guy talked about body mutilation which is very different from surgery and hormonal therapy lol. so in a way he is right, at least what he was arguing, that mutilation is a horrible way to fix a problem, however, to actually attend a surgical procedure along with Hormone treatment is enough to physically transform someone from a man to a woman and it has helped allot of transgender people being able to live normal lives.
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On December 04 2012 22:50 FdeZ wrote:
I wonder what will happen if it gets proven that pedophilia is not a mental disorder.
It's not a matter of proving anything, it's all about what's socially acceptable or not. Pedophilia will never be socially acceptable hence it will forever be considered a disorder.
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EPT
