EPTIf it happened to be the case that medical technology allowed for a complete gender transfer, without noticeable differences; then i might think differently.
Well, as far as I know MtF will make you a complete female with the only thing missing being the ability to reproduce. I heard even the vagina can be constructed in such a way to have pleasurable sex.APA: Transgender Is No Longer A Mental Disorder - Page 10
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Keep discussion objective and civil. Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
It's not relevant to the discussion and it's grossly offensive. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
So the decision was made because of peoples feelings and not because of anything substantively different about our understanding of what it means to be a transgender person in a scientific sense... Okay, I personally take no issue with the lifestyle choices of the LGBT community. Whatever, live and let live. But why are we celebrating what is claimed to be the scientifically based writings of an organization being altered for non-scientific reasons? It's an admission that either 1) it's a simple attempt to alter the vernacular and has nothing to do with scientific findings but rather has a social agenda or 2) our organization is not subject to being intellectually rigorous and will make announcements on a whim. At least try and maintain the facade of being an academically honest organization. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:37 Kimaker wrote: "The APA explained the importance of standing up for the trans community, citing the “significant discrimination, prejudice, and the potential for victimization from violent hate crimes, as well as denial of many basic civil rights, protections, and access to health care, to the severe detriment of their mental health." So the decision was made because of peoples feelings and not because of anything substantively different about our understanding of what it means to be a transgender person in a scientific sense... Okay, I personally take no issue with the lifestyle choices of the LGBT community. Whatever, live and let live. But why are we celebrating what is claimed to be the scientifically based writings of an organization being altered for non-scientific reasons? It's an admission that either 1) it's a simple attempt to alter the vernacular and has nothing to do with scientific findings but rather has a social agenda or 2) our organization is not subject to being intellectually rigorous and will make announcements on a whim. At least try and maintain the facade of being an academically honest organization. The scientific reasons have been demonstrated LONG ago. Also, citing non scientific reasons doesn't exclude scientific reasons. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:40 Klondikebar wrote: The scientific reasons have been demonstrated LONG ago. Also, citing non scientific reasons doesn't exclude scientific reasons. I suppose my complaint is that it has no place in what claims to be a scientific journal. This is the first I've really read on the topic and I assumed that there would be some sort of citation's within the text to backup the change. Also, would you mind linking me a couple of those studies which demonstrated that? My curiosity on the topic has been piqued. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:43 Kimaker wrote: I suppose my complaint is that it has no place in what claims to be a scientific journal. Well it absolutely does. Psychiatry is all about mental health. And if an incorrect label significantly damages the mental health of a population then of course psychiatrists would cite that damage as a reason for changing the label. Their failure to update their manual with what science has known for a long time has been a source of great duress for transgender people. | ||
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Dark.Carnival
United States5095 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:26 floor exercise wrote: In general I find the whole concept, or at least how it is portrayed by trans people, to be almost regressive in respects gender equality. They draw serious lines in the sand of how a woman and a man act, think, dress, even their physical appearance, to justify changing themselves. Ultimately I feel it's not a group of people who want to call attention to the issues regarding societal gender roles, it's just people who want to hop the fence to the other side. Which is fine, whatever, but then they have this really obnoxious way of accusing everyone who thinks otherwise a bigot. Even the idea of "gender identity" is backwards to me considering all the work that goes into feminism and equality. If you like things that society says is for girls, you were supposed to be a girl? Wouldn't it be much simpler to ask is "why is it that only girls can like this in our society, isn't that dumb?" and then challenging by liking it anyway regardless of what gender you were born as. It just seems like such a lazy, convenient attitude to peg your personality to gender. I don't think I am who I am because I am a man. I think I am who I am simply because this is the mind and personality I have. My penis rarely enters the equation (despite its ginormous size. It's huge) If more and more people feel some incongruity with their gender and their mind, isn't that just evidence that the roles themselves are stupid? Isn't it ultimately a much more effective strategy to stop enforcing them, rather than tell everyone they have gender dysphoria and need surgery to fix it? Doesn't that in a way encourage the separation of genders to justify the act of altering the body to fit the mind? I can't wrap my head around it, it just seems so backwards to me. You seem to think we all do this because of society and gender roles, but it isn't that at all. We change our bodies because our minds don't match it, there is a disconnect between the two. I'd love to have been born comfortable in my own body but I wasn't. I was born male, raised male and told all my life I am male but I can distinctly remember since the age of 4 feeling that I am female. I wasn't able to explain those feelings until I got older, but the disconnect between mind and body was always there. It has caused me a lot of pain and unhappiness all my life. What I want is to be happy with my body and have it match my mind. Thanks to modern medicine I have the ability to do that and for once in my life be comfortable with my body. None of this has to do with gender roles or liking what girls can do and wanting to be like them. I am a girl even if my body isn't. It doesn't define who I am, it is simply part of my life. I can fully understand that the majority of people in the world will never understand what it feels to be transgender and that it is a confusing topic to talk about. But it makes me sad that what we feel is belittled because most people can't look past their own world and realize not everyone is the same as them. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
But one should describe it as - imagine you were trapped in the body of an opposite sex, and forced by society to live as that sex from now on. It would be a humiliating, depressing (and for many transgender) suicidal experience. Hormone therapy is one of the miracles of modern medicine which has been shown to cure the symptoms that these people have and allow them to live normal, happy lives | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:46 Klondikebar wrote: Well it absolutely does. Psychiatry is all about mental health. And if an incorrect label significantly damages the mental health of a population then of course psychiatrists would cite that damage as a reason for changing the label. Their failure to update their manual with what science has known for a long time has been a source of great duress for transgender people. Well, I've been looking at a bunch of APA stuff from their site and I gotta tell ya...I'm sorry. I had the entire organization mischaracterized in my analysis, so everything I've been saying is moot. Sorry I wasted your time. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:13 micronesia wrote: This is inaccurate. Pedophilia is not exploitation of another living human being since it is just a sexual inclination. What the person actually does to children determines whether or not exploitation occurs. My understanding is that people with pedophilia have no choice in the matter. Child rapists/molesters/etc do. I was going to post this, but you did it for me. Thanks! | ||
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Gustis
Lithuania70 Posts
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not? Could anyone explain why? I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? | ||
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GDeci
Canada13 Posts
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote: So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not? Could anyone explain why? I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Edit: Also, transgender people don't imagine they have the physical characteristics of their "inner" gender. A male who feels he's a gal doesn't think he has boobs and a vagina. If that were the case we'd have a happy nutcase on our hands, not a depressed transgender guy. How can you not understand this? | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
Psychiatry and clinical psychology diagnose and treat disorders of the brain and not other parts of the body. Substance abuse disorders, for example, are only psychological disorders if they impair an individual's regular functioning (e.g., employment, raising kids) and/or cause distress for the individual or harm to others. Binge drinking or other heavy substance use is obviously a health concern for the individual regardless of whether or not it is a psychological disorder, but there's nothing physically harmful about transgenderism. The only reason it's even an issue is because of people's intolerance. That being said, with the removal of this categorization, transgendered individuals can still seek treatment for depression or anxiety resulting from discrimination. | ||
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Gustis
Lithuania70 Posts
On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote: Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote: Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? Well there's that whole "different species" thing which you seem to be overlooking. | ||
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote: Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? I just edited my reply, but I'll post it here as well so you don't miss it: Transgender people don't imagine they have the physical characteristics of their "inner" gender. A male who feels he's a gal doesn't think he has boobs and a vagina, like your crazy cat person. If that were the case we'd have a happy nutcase on our hands, not a depressed transgender guy. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote: Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Also, if thinking you're a cat doesn't harm you in any way, then there's nothing wrong with thinking you're a cat. | ||
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Gustis
Lithuania70 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:08 Klondikebar wrote: Well there's that whole "different species" thing which you seem to be overlooking. How in this argument "different species" and "different gender" are different? They both constitute the same thing: a state which one can not achieve, as he was not born in it, i. e. if you were born a human male, you can't become a human female or a cat. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote: Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. | ||
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