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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was.
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Huh?
This doesn't sound quite right. I thought it was a mental disorder since they're born with a brain that doesn't match their body. I mean that doesn't mean they should be discriminated against, but...this leaves me scratching my head a little.
Am I just being stupid again?
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On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was.
Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people).
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On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels?
The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it.
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On December 05 2012 03:37 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison?
Although we're kind of bogged down in details, it sounds like a valid point. We'd classify a human thinking they're a cat or a chimpanzee or even something fictional, like an elf, as having a disorder - but if we had the capability to easily change their physiology to match that of their mind then would we still classify it as one? It seems like being transgender is no longer a disorder because we can give these people what they want and not have to try to alter their minds to fit their body.
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On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it.
The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much.
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this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery.
User was warned for this post
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On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much.
Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification.
Sex: your genitals
Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly
Gender: a category of self identification
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On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification
Yes.......that is what I said?
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On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery.
It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended?
On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification
Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense?
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On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense?
Two X chromosomes=Sex
Female=Gender
Though this is where definition becomes very troublesome, because technically "female" is a sexual determination, but in use, it performs the role of a gender assignment.
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On December 05 2012 04:18 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Yes.......that is what I said?
Ah. Sorta...you said they're different but I'm arguing gender is just as internal as sex and isn't really constructed at all.
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On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender
So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis?
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This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 05 2012 04:24 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis?
Well, a big part of the deconstruction of gender labels deals with returning self-identicative agency to the individual, so ultimately, the propriety of a label relies somewhat upon the determination of the person in question.
And to Klondikebar, I think I agree with you, so long as you are arguing that humans inherently seek out self-identification in a general sense rather than in a sexually deterministic fashion.
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On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. You just be glad you don't wake up tomorrow and find out you're in a woman's body.
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On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action.
if you can find a trans person who thinks it's normal to chop dicks off, i will give you a cookie.
(hint, you won't find any)
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On December 05 2012 04:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:24 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis? Well, a big part of the deconstruction of gender labels deals with returning self-identicative agency to the individual, so ultimately, the propriety of a label relies somewhat upon the determination of the person in question.
Hmm, okay. Mind commenting on this?
Wait, if someone likes to do stereotypically "male" things, is not really uncomfortable with having a penis, is attracted to women, then how is it that they can say they're actually female inside?
Is it just that they want to be referred to as female?
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On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise.
It is "normal" to be disgusted because most people are. No one is forcing you not to be. But it's also normal to point out that your disgust is stupid. If the mods want to ban people for stupidity, I don't see an issue.
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