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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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On December 06 2012 13:25 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:18 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 13:07 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. Huh? I'm pretty sure I suffered gender dysphoria because my body wasn't quite lined up with my mind. It's a short speculation from there that I'd have developed dysphoria from my body on some level or another. Whether its onset would have been at the same time is pure speculation, and of course we're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario. And I do need surgery if I want legal recognition on many levels in the united states  Would you need a surgery if everyone around you acted as if you were completely normal no matter what you did and you were legally (and beyond that) recognized on every level? I can't speak for Alay but think about this hypothetical. If you were man with a vagina, wouldn't you still want a penis *even if* everyone treated you like a perfectly "normal" guy. I imagine that the answer for many men would be a resounding yes.
You're surely implying I'd be aware I'm missing a penis there and it's not okay. If I thought it was completely normal would I bother? I guess not.
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Pumping your body full of chemicals and surgically altering your appearance should never be acceptable. It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery, steroid abuse, or gender reassignment. It's straight up self-mutilation.
User was warned for this post
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On December 06 2012 12:55 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction. Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to.
Unless you want to argue that being a woman or being a man is disability compared to the other case, your comparison is invalid. Schizophrenia makes it impossible for you to live in any society and the fault is not on the side of society. And nobody says treatment is not necessary, transsexuals receive treatment in form of hormonal therapy and possibly surgery. Difference is that undergoing that treatment the issues of the transgendered person are resolved to some degree. Indulging schizophrenic leads to catastrophic consequences. Outcome is what matters. "Indulging" transsexual helps, "indulging" schizophrenic does not.
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United States24782 Posts
On December 06 2012 13:34 Sanders wrote:
Pumping your body full of chemicals and surgically altering your appearance should never be acceptable. It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery, steroid abuse, or gender reassignment. It's straight up self-mutilation.
You essentially just banned all plastic surgery (even reconstructive) and many types of important medical treatments, including life-saving ones. You should spend time time actually thinking about how you want to phrase your stance here if you want to make a compelling point.
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On December 06 2012 13:34 Sanders wrote:
Pumping your body full of chemicals
Your body IS chemicals
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On December 06 2012 13:36 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 12:55 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction. Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to. Unless you want to argue that being a woman or being a man is disability compared to the other case, your comparison is invalid. Schizophrenia makes it impossible for you to live in any society and the fault is not on the side of society. And nobody says treatment is not necessary, transsexuals receive treatment in form of hormonal therapy and possibly surgery. Difference is that undergoing that treatment the issues of the transgendered person are resolved to some degree. Indulging schizophrenic leads to catastrophic consequences. Outcome is what matters. "Indulging" transsexual helps, "indulging" schizophrenic does not.
Um, I'm not sure if you fully understood me. He is saying that treatment is not necessary because it's purely a social construction. So when you say "nobody says treatment is not necessary" that's not true - that's what I was arguing against, because most behavioral abnormalities can only be recognized in social context.
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I guess if I ever get cancer I shouldn't get chemotherapy as that would be self-mutilation.
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On December 06 2012 13:19 Zaqwert wrote:
Has everyone here heard of the deaf lifestyle advocates crowd?
Basically there is this group of people that believe being born deaf is not a birth defect, but is simply a different way to experience life and is important to who someone is and thus no treatment should be made.
These people OPPOSE treatments that would help a deaf person gain the sense of hearing. Think think that performing surgery on them or cochlear implants and such are bad. They think defining what "normal" human functioning is and forcing people into that mold is wrong, etc. These people have been known to harass parents who are seeking treatments for their deaf child.
Look, nobody wants to be thought of as defective, but some people clearly are. It sucks that some people are dealt shitty hands at the start of life. Some people are born with bad hearts, others are born blind, other people are born with Down Syndrome, some people are born hermaphrodites, some people have paranoid schizophrenia, others are psychotics, etc.
People with birth defects or mental disorders need help and treatment. They've had to put up with ridicule and scorn for so long and made to feel bad about their defects and that's tragic.
But to simply whitewash it all and start claiming things that are abnormal defects aren't, purely just to make them feel better about themselves is simply an abdication of responsibility and destructive in the long run.
I feel we are going down that route now as a society. We are so concerned with not offending people who have problems we simply pretend like they don't have a problem anymore, but that's not helping anyone.
Again, deafness is a disability. Being a man or a woman is not. Transsexual wants to be a man or a women. Those are normal states of being, thus treatment is helping achieve that normal state as well as possible. Deafness is not a normal state of being, so the analogy falls apart completely. Unless you want to argue that being a man or woman is a disability.
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On December 06 2012 13:36 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 12:55 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction. Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to. Unless you want to argue that being a woman or being a man is disability compared to the other case, your comparison is invalid. Schizophrenia makes it impossible for you to live in any society and the fault is not on the side of society. And nobody says treatment is not necessary, transsexuals receive treatment in form of hormonal therapy and possibly surgery. Difference is that undergoing that treatment the issues of the transgendered person are resolved to some degree. Indulging schizophrenic leads to catastrophic consequences. Outcome is what matters. "Indulging" transsexual helps, "indulging" schizophrenic does not.
Those are treatments for dysphoria, not for their identity in the first place. What you are saying is that many transexuals become depressed and/or are generally hurt mentally by the fact that their gender does not match the one that they were assigned at birth. The important distinction is that their gender identitity is not the result of confusion or a disorder. Its their body that is the issue to them in essence, and not their mind.
Also the person that you are trying to argue with is simply trying say that disorders and difference are only recognized when compared to society and thus debating about whether trans people would be trans if they never encountered society in their life is irrelevant.
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On December 06 2012 13:24 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:22 packrat386 wrote:On December 06 2012 13:20 Klondikebar wrote:On December 06 2012 12:41 Kerotan wrote:On December 06 2012 12:40 zala2023 wrote:On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote:
no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes? Sex=/=gender Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender. The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender. Not everything is coded, you should look into the nature vs nurture debate and realize that almost all characteristics are affected largely by upbringing and experience and not solely genetics. I'm pretty sure the structure of your brain and the structure of your genitals is the result of genetics. And the fact that gender is determined from birth, probably means nurture isn't contributing a whole lot.
There are other factors beside genes that can affect your state at birth and quite important ones, but you are correct they are still part of the "nature" not "nurture".
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On December 06 2012 13:38 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:36 mcc wrote:On December 06 2012 12:55 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction. Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to. Unless you want to argue that being a woman or being a man is disability compared to the other case, your comparison is invalid. Schizophrenia makes it impossible for you to live in any society and the fault is not on the side of society. And nobody says treatment is not necessary, transsexuals receive treatment in form of hormonal therapy and possibly surgery. Difference is that undergoing that treatment the issues of the transgendered person are resolved to some degree. Indulging schizophrenic leads to catastrophic consequences. Outcome is what matters. "Indulging" transsexual helps, "indulging" schizophrenic does not. Um, I'm not sure if you fully understood me. He is saying that treatment is not necessary because it's purely a social construction. So when you say "nobody says treatment is not necessary" that's not true - that's what I was arguing against, because most behavioral abnormalities can only be recognized in social context.
True, sorry, I mixed you up with Zaqwert.
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On December 06 2012 13:18 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:07 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 12:51 nolook wrote:On December 06 2012 12:35 Alay wrote:On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote:
I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious.
If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body?
I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around. Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years. Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though. On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues. Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification. I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being. You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction. The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery. Huh? I'm pretty sure I suffered gender dysphoria because my body wasn't quite lined up with my mind. It's a short speculation from there that I'd have developed dysphoria from my body on some level or another. Whether its onset would have been at the same time is pure speculation, and of course we're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario. And I do need surgery if I want legal recognition on many levels in the united states Would you need a surgery if everyone around you acted as if you were completely normal no matter what you did and you were legally (and beyond that) recognized on every level?
Need? I could probably live without. My dysphoria is mostly gone since what I'd consider completing transition (aka; I pass fine, legal name changed, and I've reintegrated socially and am satisfied with my life, and am no longer suicidal) and my genitals aren't really a huge part of it. However, I still plan on shelling out the money and taking the risks on surgery because I'd like to experience intercourse properly, because as it currently stands I have a fair amount of sexual dysfunction.
So, no, I wouldn't need it, because everyone around does act as if I'm completely normal (most are non-the-wiser about me being trans) and sans marriage issues, I've got enough legal considerations in the fine state of CT for the time being. But I still want genital surgery. Really though, for me, surgery is just the cherry on top--the last bow to tie it all together and completely be done with that nightmare. For others, it is much more severe though.
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On December 06 2012 13:34 Sanders wrote:
Pumping your body full of chemicals and surgically altering your appearance should never be acceptable. It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery, steroid abuse, or gender reassignment. It's straight up self-mutilation. Yeah, I'm sure massively improving the quality of life for transgender people is straight up self-mutilation and should be unacceptable *rolls eyes*.
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On December 06 2012 13:26 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:24 Klondikebar wrote:On December 06 2012 13:22 packrat386 wrote:On December 06 2012 13:20 Klondikebar wrote:On December 06 2012 12:41 Kerotan wrote:On December 06 2012 12:40 zala2023 wrote:On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote:
no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes? Sex=/=gender Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender. The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender. Not everything is coded, you should look into the nature vs nurture debate and realize that almost all characteristics are affected largely by upbringing and experience and not solely genetics. I'm pretty sure the structure of your brain and the structure of your genitals is the result of genetics. And the fact that gender is determined from birth, probably means nurture isn't contributing a whole lot. This is actually a key point in this whole debate. If it's not a birth defect, than it warrants a completely different approach.
You're implying that you don't believe it's a birth defect, yet scientific studies seem to show that it is.
Identifying as the opposite sex for decades despite desperately trying to repress those feelings and going against them and that never working doesn't seem like that identity would be a delusion, a selfish desire; each one of us tried our best not to have to accept the reality of being transsexual, we tried to be in denial about it, but it never worked. There's a reason the medical treatment for it is never forcing the patient to accept their assigned sex. That just leads to suicide in most cases.
And I relate a lot to shinosai's paragraphs about how being forced to live as my assigned sex has always felt like a lie, just uncomfortable acting, and have to agree that if there was a treatment to make our brains match our body, many of us would likely become completely impersonal, identityless actors. It wouldn't fix the problem because without an indentity, due to the regret of losing it, most people would still commit suicide. Trust me that gender identity is that core to one's identity (the fact that we either risk so much or suicide should sort of be a testament to that fact), but you won't be able to realise that if you never had your gender and sex not in alignment.
Would any cis (non-trans) people here really want their identity to get changed against their will if they had no problems with it?
On December 06 2012 13:34 Sanders wrote:
Pumping your body full of chemicals and surgically altering your appearance should never be acceptable. It doesn't matter if it's cosmetic surgery, steroid abuse, or gender reassignment. It's straight up self-mutilation.
That's just a subjective opinion. Even if I'm willing to overlook all the fallacies that others have previously pointed out about your statement, just why is it a problem to you what others do to their own body that makes them much happier while not causing any harm to you whatsoever?
And so, aside from the fact that people should have empathy (is intolerance of people of other races/gender identities/orientations/etc. going to really get anyone anywhere?) and that we can still be very valuable members of society in our professions, why should cis people even care about trans people? Maybe because you can never know when you’ll have a trans person in your life.
You can never know that your best friend of 10 years will one day without any prior signs during those 10 years come out to you that she’s really suicidally depressed because she’s a trans woman and wants to transition to female, and instead of congratulating her for being brave enough to come out, thanking her for trusting you and considering you a close enough friend to come out to, and assuring her that you’re still friends and you’ll accept and support her and therefore your friendship will become even stronger than before through this, you’d rather tell her that she’s disgusting and insane and abandon her, making her lose a friend and leaving her even with the anxiety of you possibly outing her to others, pushing her even more towards suicide?
What if your future "son" whom you were always proud of, the one whom you had put all your hope into, came out to you one day as a trans woman? Wouldn’t you rather she was just a gay guy (probably the only case where you'd rather want that, right?)? And would you rather beat her up, throw her out and disown her just because you don’t want to be ashamed in front of others that your kid became some creepy abomination who would just plague the fame of your family, instead of still unconditionally loving her, accepting and supporting her through all this, making the parental bond even stronger? Because of how unlikely the latter scenario is in most families, now you might imagine how stress-inducing it is to even consider coming out to one’s parents as a trans woman.
What about your "daughter" coming out to you that he’s actually a trans man? The adorable "daddy’s girl” is sadly gone, in fact never existed, but now you have a son to be proud of? Would that be more acceptable than the other way around? Isn’t this societal double standard really sad that males expressing femininity and trans women "choosing" [when it’s not even a choice] femaleness are a lot less acceptable? I’m not saying masculine females and trans men shouldn’t be that accepted either, but rather that effeminate males and trans women should be accepted more as well.
Regardless, know that it’s not your fault if your future kid will be LGBT, and that it’s always a possibility to keep in mind. It’s not their fault either, they didn’t choose to get born as such, but they do deserve a happy life like everyone else, and having support from their family is extremely important. So let it sink in that it can very well happen in your own family, and consider telling your future kids when they’re still young that you will always love them unconditionally, regardless of whether they’re gay and/or trans, assuring them that they can comfortably come out about it later on in life if they are.
But if you don't have that empathy not only towards strangers but not even towards possible friends / family members, then I'm sorry for you.
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Sorry if this has already been asked, but I am sure that many other straight men have thought it...
So you're a girl with a penis, how do you get involved with straight men? Does having surgery (shiny new vagina, no more penis) change this at all?
I expect that there are two main camps that oppose transsexual treatments: religious people and men who are scared of being tricked. I cannot speak for religious people, but I expect there is not much more to say there anyway. As for men who are scared of being tricked, 5 years ago I would definitely of been in that category. Nowdays, a penis would be a complete turn off (especially if it was bigger than mine!), but I find the situation too amusing to be scared of (or disgusted by, which I expect many young men would think).
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On December 06 2012 19:42 hzflank wrote:
I expect that there are two main camps that oppose transsexual treatments: religious people and men who are scared of being tricked. I cannot speak for religious people, but I expect there is not much more to say there anyway. As for men who are scared of being tricked, 5 years ago I would definitely of been in that category. Nowdays, a penis would be a complete turn off (especially if it was bigger than mine!), but I find the situation too amusing to be scared of (or disgusted by, which I expect many young men would think).
Against MtF treatment, besides the two you mentioned, in general all people who irrationally hate others for being even slightly different than themselves, people who are disgusted by it, people who hate men and think we're trying to invade women's spaces, people who feel we're a disgrace to maleness and masculinity, people who feel we're a disgrace to femaleness and femininity, homophobes, people who think we're insane, people who think it's sexual deviance, people who think the public existence of it may lead to their kids being influenced to "become" trans too, etc.
(And for a second going to ignore straight / bisexual trans women attempting to get into a straight relationship; I feel really sorry for their situation) What about us trans women who are lesbian and don't want at all to date men? Sadly we're still assumed to be straight due to the totally misinformed stereotype completely confusing sexual orientation with gender identity (when there's nothing in common with them other than the fact that neither are a choice as they seem to be neuroanatomically hardwired, but have different neuron nucleuses in the Hypothalamus that they're linked to, hence all sexual orientation x gender identity combinations being possible and actually existing).
And even more sadly we can still get beaten up by straight men upon them finding out from distance that we're trans if they got seriously offended by the fact that they got attracted to us from distance, to someone who was once physically male, in their eyes trying to "deceive" straight men like themselves. So by merely existing, if someone doesn't pass, they're subjected to getting beaten up at any time. So it's really ridiculous to expect trans people not to be in stealth when it's not about "deception" but about physical safety.
Now back to trans women who want to be in a straight relationship, for a second imagine yourself into their place, imagine the horrors of their situation, the intense fear of risking severe physical violence upon coming out to their male partner, even if right at the start / early into the relationship.
And what if your "girlfriend" / "wife" whom you loved infinitely more than anyone else, especially their personality, and seriously wanted to live down your entire life with, came out to you one day that after many decades, he finally realised that he's not a straight woman but a gay trans man and wants to transition to male, how would you react to that?
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On December 06 2012 19:42 hzflank wrote:
Sorry if this has already been asked, but I am sure that many other straight men have thought it...
So you're a girl with a penis, how do you get involved with straight men? Does having surgery (shiny new vagina, no more penis) change this at all?
I expect that there are two main camps that oppose transsexual treatments: religious people and men who are scared of being tricked. I cannot speak for religious people, but I expect there is not much more to say there anyway. As for men who are scared of being tricked, 5 years ago I would definitely of been in that category. Nowdays, a penis would be a complete turn off (especially if it was bigger than mine!), but I find the situation too amusing to be scared of (or disgusted by, which I expect many young men would think).
Many places for gender change surgery offer genital operations.
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On December 06 2012 19:42 hzflank wrote:
Sorry if this has already been asked, but I am sure that many other straight men have thought it...
So you're a girl with a penis, how do you get involved with straight men? Does having surgery (shiny new vagina, no more penis) change this at all?
I can answer this. Keep in mind, I'm a preoperative trans woman (which means, I was assigned male at birth, but have lived as a female for years now.) My boyfriend and I met through some nerdy activities, and just became close friends. He knew full well I was trans, but still pursued a relationship with me and vice versa. He identifies as straight (like, in the 'no way in hell am I ever hooking up with a guy' way) and yet our love is able to overcome sexual difficulties. At this point, he states it isn't even a big deal to him either way (though he's obviously not fond of my downstairs) as he views me as a female, and thus doesn't have an issue computing attraction to me with his sexuality. I am simply, currently, a female whom he loves who is not capable of vaginal penetration, so we just do other things for the time being.
As for the surgery--yes, in many cases individuals will simply go "stealth" and completely keep their trans status a secret. Most guys haven't a clue, because it (apparently? never tried... lol) feels the same/looks the same. There are ethical questions to going full stealth and not disclosing to a long term partner, but those questions aren't really the focus of this thread.
On December 06 2012 19:42 hzflank wrote:
I expect that there are two main camps that oppose transsexual treatments: religious people and men who are scared of being tricked. I cannot speak for religious people, but I expect there is not much more to say there anyway. As for men who are scared of being tricked, 5 years ago I would definitely of been in that category. Nowdays, a penis would be a complete turn off (especially if it was bigger than mine!), but I find the situation too amusing to be scared of (or disgusted by, which I expect many young men would think).
If you mean 'tricked' by getting into bed with a trans woman who is pre-operative or non-operative who hasn't disclosed their genital situation... well that would be a really really dumb idea for the trans woman, as that is liable to get you beat extremely bad, or murdered. However, if you mean falling for a girl who ends up disclosing to you... Well, you take it from there. It's hard to say unemotionally, though sex really isn't everything in a relationship (and for me at least, my partner and I have fulfilling intercourse without my genitals being involved at all.) In my experience, on the whole, most guys are cool with it after a bit of thinking, but initially many get hit with the "omg does liking a girl with a dick make me gay?" thought. But that is just my experience, of course.
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EPT
