On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
From what we know of the Y chromosome, it doesn't actually do that much relating exclusively to gender. The primary difference is in the levels of hormone production it enables. To look further into transgender issues, the Y chromosome isn't going to be nearly as useful as looking into the brain's interaction with androgens (especially in utero).
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Whoa there
Can you fill in the missing steps in your argument?
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction.
Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to.
yay! Who else thought of Leiya aka PuCk when you saw this its just how people feel about them self's we have no right to say it's a disorder and we should fix it.
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Huh? I'm pretty sure I suffered gender dysphoria because my body wasn't quite lined up with my mind. It's a short speculation from there that I'd have developed dysphoria from my body on some level or another. Whether its onset would have been at the same time is pure speculation, and of course we're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario.
And I do need surgery if I want legal recognition on many levels in the united states
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Huh? I'm pretty sure I suffered gender dysphoria because my body wasn't quite lined up with my mind. It's a short speculation from there that I'd have developed dysphoria from my body on some level or another. Whether its onset would have been at the same time is pure speculation, and of course we're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario.
And I do need surgery if I want legal recognition on many levels in the united states
Would you need a surgery if everyone around you acted as if you were completely normal no matter what you did and you were legally (and beyond that) recognized on every level?
Has everyone here heard of the deaf lifestyle advocates crowd?
Basically there is this group of people that believe being born deaf is not a birth defect, but is simply a different way to experience life and is important to who someone is and thus no treatment should be made.
These people OPPOSE treatments that would help a deaf person gain the sense of hearing. Think think that performing surgery on them or cochlear implants and such are bad. They think defining what "normal" human functioning is and forcing people into that mold is wrong, etc. These people have been known to harass parents who are seeking treatments for their deaf child.
Look, nobody wants to be thought of as defective, but some people clearly are. It sucks that some people are dealt shitty hands at the start of life. Some people are born with bad hearts, others are born blind, other people are born with Down Syndrome, some people are born hermaphrodites, some people have paranoid schizophrenia, others are psychotics, etc.
People with birth defects or mental disorders need help and treatment. They've had to put up with ridicule and scorn for so long and made to feel bad about their defects and that's tragic.
But to simply whitewash it all and start claiming things that are abnormal defects aren't, purely just to make them feel better about themselves is simply an abdication of responsibility and destructive in the long run.
I feel we are going down that route now as a society. We are so concerned with not offending people who have problems we simply pretend like they don't have a problem anymore, but that's not helping anyone.
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
Sex=/=gender
Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender.
The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender.
On December 06 2012 12:57 1a2a3a[MB] wrote: yay! Who else thought of Leiya aka PuCk when you saw this its just how people feel about them self's we have no right to say it's a disorder and we should fix it.
So glad that some people can realize the kind of far reaching effects this advance has even within our community.
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Whoa there
Can you fill in the missing steps in your argument?
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction.
Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to.
Schizophrenia and autism would likely manifest themselves regardless of the environment, homosexuality as well, to an extent.
Unless you were attracted to same sex your transsexuality (if that's even a proper term) would not be as obvious of a problem if you were to grow up without social interaction. You behavior would likely not emulate that of a woman at all.
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
Sex=/=gender
Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender.
The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender.
Not everything is coded, you should look into the nature vs nurture debate and realize that almost all characteristics are affected largely by upbringing and experience and not solely genetics.
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
Sex=/=gender
Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender.
The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender.
Not everything is coded, you should look into the nature vs nurture debate and realize that almost all characteristics are affected largely by upbringing and experience and not solely genetics.
I'm pretty sure the structure of your brain and the structure of your genitals is the result of genetics. And the fact that gender is determined from birth, probably means nurture isn't contributing a whole lot.
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Huh? I'm pretty sure I suffered gender dysphoria because my body wasn't quite lined up with my mind. It's a short speculation from there that I'd have developed dysphoria from my body on some level or another. Whether its onset would have been at the same time is pure speculation, and of course we're discussing a purely hypothetical scenario.
And I do need surgery if I want legal recognition on many levels in the united states
Would you need a surgery if everyone around you acted as if you were completely normal no matter what you did and you were legally (and beyond that) recognized on every level?
I can't speak for Alay but think about this hypothetical. If you were man with a vagina, wouldn't you still want a penis *even if* everyone treated you like a perfectly "normal" guy. I imagine that the answer for many men would be a resounding yes.
On December 06 2012 12:14 sam!zdat wrote: no way there is a gene that codes for gender, from what I know about genetics (small but non-trivial) that seems highly unlikely.
If you are trying to be funny it's certainly not working. I thought basic biology was mandatory in the US. Have you not learned or heard anything about the difference between X and Y chromosomes?
Sex=/=gender
Even so, if you don't believe in a soul and you think it's likely that we're just our brains and our bodies...then SOMETHING must code for gender.
The sex genes and gender genes would probably also be very related since most of the population doesn't experience the desync of sex and gender.
Not everything is coded, you should look into the nature vs nurture debate and realize that almost all characteristics are affected largely by upbringing and experience and not solely genetics.
I'm pretty sure the structure of your brain and the structure of your genitals is the result of genetics. And the fact that gender is determined from birth, probably means nurture isn't contributing a whole lot.
This is actually a key point in this whole debate. If it's not a birth defect, than it warrants a completely different approach.
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
Whoa there
Can you fill in the missing steps in your argument?
On December 06 2012 06:25 KwarK wrote: I have a question for the trans posters here if they don't mind answering as I am genuinely curious. If a transgender individual were raised in total isolation and kept ignorant of the existence of other humans of other shapes then do you think they would still feel wrong about their body? Would the lack of the challenge issued by another seeking to impose them into an incorrect category prevent them from realising there was an issue? Likewise would the lack of awareness that things could be in any way different to the way that they are in any way alter the perception of the body? I guess it comes down to whether or not they would still believe there was something wrong while having no idea that anything other than things as they are existed or if instead they would simply believe that a penis was associated with a strong sense of a female gender or the other way around.
Yes, I believe so. I was raised in a fairly genderless environment (that is, gender stereotypes were fairly lax, and no one tended to really give a crap in my immediate family, friend circle, etc) and I still ended up with severe dysphoria regarding specifically my body. I've socially not really given much of a care as to what people think of me (so long as they meet basic respect standards--not that it matters any longer, as I haven't been misgendered in a few years) and never really had much anguish from societal expectations. The only time I was truly bugged by someone else was when my family decided to more or less pretend I didn't exist for two years.
Though, the true answer to your question is, no one knows. I'd guess that yes, I'd still have 'ended up' trans. The few societal issues I've had wouldn't have existed though.
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote: Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
Ah, but the only other solution for most trans individuals aside from gender transition is the same solution for curing the undead of their zombification.
I'd rather live with a "mutilated" body (which is pretty fantastic in contrast to my pre-transition setup, if I may speak subjectively) than rot in a coffin for the time being.
You'd be very naive to believe what you've just said. His question is loaded, and chances are there isn't an answer that would go well with you. Chances are that a person without any type of social interaction/information on other members of society would never come to realize he had any kind of problem. Ask anyone working in behavioral science, they will smile. People are social creatures and develop through interaction.
The implication of this is that the problem comes through social interaction. Therefore, you don't really need surgery.
The trouble with this logic is that you could replace transsexualism with any other behavior abnormality (homosexuality, autism, schizophrenia, etc) and then argue that treatment isn't necessary, because the problem comes to be known through social interaction.
Anyways, I suspect that one would still be transsexual even in the absence of social interaction. They just wouldn't be able to put a label on their feeling, no more than a homosexual could understand that he was gay. Edit: or the schizophrenic understanding that he was having delusions. How could he, with no one else to compare himself to.
Schizophrenia and autism would likely manifest themselves regardless of the environment, homosexuality as well, to an extent.
Unless you were attracted to same sex your transsexuality (if that's even a proper term) would not be as obvious of a problem if you were to grow up without social interaction. You behavior would likely not emulate that of a woman at all.
You just changed the scenario. Now the person grows up and then enters society. Well, in this case, the person would then be able to discover their transsexualism. Just like the gay person would suddenly discover that he's different - he likes men, and not everyone else does. And the schizophrenic would realize upon his social interactions that hey, not everyone sees hallucinations. Or, hey, I seem to be seeing things that other people don't... And the transsexual upon his or her interaction, might eventually realize: Hey! I identify more as female...
But in the absence of environment, of course schizophrenia and autism would manifest themselves, just as I believe transsexualism would. But you would never KNOW that you had these disorders without someone else to compare yourself to. Likewise, you couldn't know that you identified as female if you had no males/females to compare yourself to. The brain expects itself to be a certain sex, but you could not identify this expectation if you didn't even know what a female looked like.
I just don't see how the requirement of social interaction somehow makes it less real.
thinking about phenotype as "coded" in genotype is precisely the wrong way to think about things
edit: genotype develops into phenotype by interacting with environment in its process of ontogeny. Environment is much more than "nurture" (as a naive way of thinking about social impact). My guess would be that the abnormal development resulting in trans occurs quite early in ontogeny, a good guess maybe is hormonal exposure in utero?
edit: at any rate, inquiry into cause is an entirely different matter than ethical question of social treatment of trans people, which if you aren't totally supportive you're basically just a douchebag in my book. live and let live yo, we're all in this world together and who are you to judge?
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