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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
I didn't know that Joseph Nicolosi had an account on these forums.
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On December 06 2012 07:27 Zaqwert wrote:
Treating someone with a mental problem by physically deforming their body isn't helping them.
There are people who want to have their arms and legs removed, clearly they have mental problems, but they don't care, they want their limbs removed.
I argue it's unethical to indulge their mental issue in such a way. Treat the underlying root mental issue.
It's a lot trickier with gender confusion, as the causes are varied, but hacking off body parts via surgery to indulge someone's delusion is not compassionate or progress. We've gone from calling these people demonic which is ridiculous and stupid to another stupid extreme of refusing to acknowledge or treat them and just pretend like there is no problem.
When someone is convinced they are covered in bugs we shouldn't spray them down with bug spray to make them feel better, we need to treat their issues.
It's not a mental disorder.
Problem solved.
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LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
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On December 06 2012 07:36 Zaqwert wrote:
LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
There are already valid treatments, I don't understand why you believe that they are inherently wrong, while your proposed solution (which is currently impossible to execute) is inherently "better".
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On December 06 2012 07:36 Zaqwert wrote:
LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
But part of the problem is, there are no other treatments. Which means it becomes about harm reduction, and altering the body is less harmful than persisting mental anguish.
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On December 06 2012 07:36 Zaqwert wrote:
LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
Read the thread title. Now read the OP.
It's no longer classified as a mental disorder.
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On December 06 2012 07:36 Zaqwert wrote:
LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
They are being treated. The hormonal treatments and surgery ARE exactly that. If there was a better way it would be used. But there is not and not for the lack of trying. And it actually helps. You are acting like whole psychiatric profession just gave up suddenly, they are doctors and are doing what is in the best interest of the patient based on their best knowledge. What are your qualifications ? Do you have anything to back up your contention that there is anything else that can be done that would make their lives better ?
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On December 06 2012 07:43 jdseemoreglass wrote:
But part of the problem is, there are no other treatments. Which means it becomes about harm reduction, and altering the body is less harmful than persisting mental anguish.
Yes, you're correct.
However, I'm don't think that most transgender people would choose to have their minds altered over their bodies. As you said earlier, most people associate their sense of self with their mind, rather than their body. I believe that if such a treatment were developed, it should become an OPTION, but I don't think that it would be inherently "right" or "better" than the currently available treatments (which would have also improved by that time).
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On December 06 2012 05:45 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +Before, you said that it was impossible to explain what it felt like to be the female gender, and now you just said that they have more intense emotions, and have easier to cry. That's pretty specific I have to say. You know what, those are typical stereotypes of the female sex, and they are also stereotypes of men who are more effeminate. And this also fits the other post I quoted above.
To me it seems like you are mixing up your so called mental gender (that supposedly only transgenders can understand), and the sociological gender (which is obvious to all of us), and that's what I've been saying all along. Well, yes, you've made it very clear that you think we're simply mentally confused. But, in any case: There are very real psychological and physical changes associated with estrogen vs testosterone. Being easier to cry and having intense emotions are not stereotypes - you will feel these if you take estrogen. The interesting part is that you will also have a feeling that these psychological and physical changes are "correct" as a transsexual - but if you were simply a regular guy, these psychological changes would be extremely distressing to you. Seriously, though, if you want to know what it feels like to be in the wrong body and experience a disconnect between gender identity and sex, it's not hard. Just go get yourself some hormone replacement therapy. (But first you're going to have to spend a lot of money and time convincing medical professionals that you actually need it, good luck with that)
The thing is, me going to get hormone replacement therapy is only a viable comparison if there actually is such a thing as a mental gender, and that's where we disagree, so if I did try it and it didn't work, you would say that it didn't work because of my male mental gender, and I would say that it didn't work because of me going against my natural male physical gender. You're using yourself as an example to show that it works, but using yourself to make a point is not very scientific. I've mentioned the placebo effect and how sometimes, just changing something that doesn't really matter can have a profound effect. It's also definately possible that some men would be happier living as female, because their natural tendencies are quite feminine stereotypically, or if they have been convinced by some other reason. There's a great variance in all of us, so it makes sense that the extremes are interested in other ways.
I've read most of the cited studies, that supposedly proves the concept of a mental gender, and neither of them proved anything more than that there were links between transgenders and their target sex. Links doesn't prove anything, because links can be explained by variation of the same sex, and certain extreme variations of one sex being more likely to adopt certain views or behaviour. There are also links that shows the opposite, very clear similarities between male and trans female, seperating them from female, which have been disregarded in some of the papers, probably because it's their jobs to find links, not to question the theory in itself.
In one of the studies, they measured specific neurons, and looked at men who had transitioned to females, comparing them to regular men, and a few of the regular men were well in range of the numbers shown by trans females, sometimes lower than a number of them. Does that mean that these normal men who had very low numbers actually are female gender too? No it doesn't, according to themselves. The only thing it proves is that men who showed lower numbers were more likely to want to trans to female, and this fits well in with my view, that extremes might feel uncomfortable with who they are, and for that reason, be more likely to come to dramatic conclusions. When you look at genetics, x and y, the difference is much more clear cut.
On December 06 2012 06:37 NicolBolas wrote:
The problem is with your question itself; you're asking the wrong thing. You shouldn't condition your acceptance of gender dysphoria based on the ability of others to describe it. You should condition it based on the available facts. The question you should be asking is this: what is the available evidence around gender dysphoria?
Psychologists have determined that gender dysphoria is real. There are numerous papers about the concept and other concepts relating to gender.
So the question I have for you is this: do you accept the majority opinion of most of the people who have done research into the field? Or do you not?
That's what I'm doing. I'm asking for research showing proof, but I haven't found any. I don't deny that gender dysphoria is real. I do believe that trans women, made the choice they made because of being convinced it was the right thing. But when they say that they did it because their mental gender wasn't the same as their body, I don't buy it, and noone have been able to prove that concept. I think it's just a way to justify their actions, and to convince themselves that they are the new gender. I think that they should be able to do what they want, but I don't accept when they use theories and claim they are facts, because it misleads ppl.
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How effective are sex reassignment surgeries, in particular of the genitals? Is the final result visually and functionally indistinguishable from a standard set? The process must be incredibly complex and difficult. Also, if any trans people in here are willing to share on this subject, please do.
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On December 06 2012 07:52 ninini wrote:I think it's just a way to justify their actions, and to convince themselves that they are the new gender.
I was following along, but here you are almost suggesting that trans women AREN'T women.
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On December 06 2012 07:52 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 05:45 shinosai wrote:Before, you said that it was impossible to explain what it felt like to be the female gender, and now you just said that they have more intense emotions, and have easier to cry. That's pretty specific I have to say. You know what, those are typical stereotypes of the female sex, and they are also stereotypes of men who are more effeminate. And this also fits the other post I quoted above.
To me it seems like you are mixing up your so called mental gender (that supposedly only transgenders can understand), and the sociological gender (which is obvious to all of us), and that's what I've been saying all along. Well, yes, you've made it very clear that you think we're simply mentally confused. But, in any case: There are very real psychological and physical changes associated with estrogen vs testosterone. Being easier to cry and having intense emotions are not stereotypes - you will feel these if you take estrogen. The interesting part is that you will also have a feeling that these psychological and physical changes are "correct" as a transsexual - but if you were simply a regular guy, these psychological changes would be extremely distressing to you. Seriously, though, if you want to know what it feels like to be in the wrong body and experience a disconnect between gender identity and sex, it's not hard. Just go get yourself some hormone replacement therapy. (But first you're going to have to spend a lot of money and time convincing medical professionals that you actually need it, good luck with that) The thing is, me going to get hormone replacement therapy is only a viable comparison if there actually is such a thing as a mental gender, and that's where we disagree, so if I did try it and it didn't work, you would say that it didn't work because of my male mental gender, and I would say that it didn't work because of me going against my natural male physical gender. You're using yourself as an example to show that it works, but using yourself to make a point is not very scientific. I've mentioned the placebo effect and how sometimes, just changing something that doesn't really matter can have a profound effect. It's also definately possible that some men would be happier living as female, because their natural tendencies are quite feminine stereotypically, or if they have been convinced by some other reason. There's a great variance in all of us, so it makes sense that the extremes are interested in other ways. I've read most of the cited studies, that supposedly proves the concept of a mental gender, and neither of them proved anything more than that there were links between transgenders and their target sex. Links doesn't prove anything, because links can be explained by variation of the same sex, and certain extreme variations of one sex being more likely to adopt certain views or behaviour. There are also links that shows the opposite, very clear similarities between male and trans female, seperating them from female, which have been disregarded in some of the papers, probably because it's their jobs to find links, not to question the theory in itself. In one of the studies, they measured specific neurons, and looked at men who had transitioned to females, comparing them to regular men, and a few of the regular men were well in range of the numbers shown by trans females, sometimes lower than a number of them. Does that mean that these normal men who had very low numbers actually are female gender too? No it doesn't, according to themselves. The only thing it proves is that men who showed lower numbers were more likely to want to trans to female, and this fits well in with my view, that extremes might feel uncomfortable with who they are, and for that reason, be more likely to come to dramatic conclusions. When you look at genetics, x and y, the difference is much more clear cut. Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 06:37 NicolBolas wrote:
The problem is with your question itself; you're asking the wrong thing. You shouldn't condition your acceptance of gender dysphoria based on the ability of others to describe it. You should condition it based on the available facts. The question you should be asking is this: what is the available evidence around gender dysphoria?
Psychologists have determined that gender dysphoria is real. There are numerous papers about the concept and other concepts relating to gender.
So the question I have for you is this: do you accept the majority opinion of most of the people who have done research into the field? Or do you not? That's what I'm doing. I'm asking for research showing proof, but I haven't found any. I don't deny that gender dysphoria is real. I do believe that trans women, made the choice they made because of being convinced it was the right thing. But when they say that they did it because their mental gender wasn't the same as their body, I don't buy it, and noone have been able to prove that concept. I think it's just a way to justify their actions, and to convince themselves that they are the new gender. I think that they should be able to do what they want, but I don't accept when they use theories and claim they are facts, because it misleads ppl.
Doubting mental gender is like doubting consciousness, you might do that as empty intellectual exercise, but denying its existence leads nowhere and its existence is kind of self-evident. Everything we think or feel has mental basis, so of course there is mental gender. Your question if it can ever be different from sexual gender is slightly better. But consider that even sexual gender is rather unclear and flimsy patchwork. What about XXY, XXX, hermaphrodites, ..... ? Gender and sex both are product of complex play of genes and environment and both of them often stray into deviation from norm. Even if there was no conclusive evidence the hypothesis that mental gender can differ from sexual one would be much more probable. But even though the evidence is not conclusive it is there making likelihood of that hypothesis even higher. And in science there are no proofs, just likelihoods. And that tells us that you are most likely wrong.
EDIT: Plus you show complete lack of understanding of statistics and complexity. In the studies they measure one attribute, so the fact that some men would fall into transwomen territory means absolutely nothing. Important part are correlations and statistical causal links. Your argument would only make sense if someone claimed that those particular attributes are everything that makes transwomen trans and not a man.
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On December 06 2012 07:55 Demonhunter04 wrote:
How effective are sex reassignment surgeries, in particular of the genitals? Is the final result visually and functionally indistinguishable from a standard set?
Hmmm.... I think we'll need to see some photos to be sure. I'm guessing it looks something like Michael Jackson though.
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On December 06 2012 07:55 Demonhunter04 wrote:
How effective are sex reassignment surgeries, in particular of the genitals? Is the final result visually and functionally indistinguishable from a standard set? The process must be incredibly complex and difficult. Also, if any trans people in here are willing to share on this subject, please do.
for male to female it is. feels about the same (like a "real" women, at least according to studies), and cant be distinguished from a biological one from outside (if done right).
Three points are lacking:
- self lubrication is rare to non existent (I know girls that have a similar issue, lube solves it)
- no pregnancys
- it has to be used (inserting sth, doesnt need to be sex), otherwise it could collapse after some time.
the other way doesnt work that well and is done very rarely
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On December 06 2012 07:55 Demonhunter04 wrote:
How effective are sex reassignment surgeries, in particular of the genitals? Is the final result visually and functionally indistinguishable from a standard set? The process must be incredibly complex and difficult. Also, if any trans people in here are willing to share on this subject, please do.
It's typically said that "passing" is easier for a transmale but that sexual reassignment surgeries are more 'complete' for transfemales. Specifically, with sexual reassignment for transmales, the clitoris is grown (over time) until it is a few inches in length, then they create a penis from it using surgery. The problem is that success is extremely varied.
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On December 06 2012 07:55 Demonhunter04 wrote:
How effective are sex reassignment surgeries, in particular of the genitals? Is the final result visually and functionally indistinguishable from a standard set? The process must be incredibly complex and difficult. Also, if any trans people in here are willing to share on this subject, please do.
It is definitely distinguishable, but in well done MtF as far as I know it is quite good, in case of FtM it is much less successful. On the other hand everyday life looks are the other way around I would guess.
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On December 06 2012 07:36 Zaqwert wrote:
LOL, I'm atheist, nice try though.
I'm not attacking transgender folks calling them sinners or evil. It's just clear they suffer from a major, complex disorder and people are so scared of offending them or making them feel bad we've given up on treating them and instead are just indulging their illness.
This is stupid beyond belief.
People offend transgenders and make them feel bad literally every single day, all the time. Especially people like you, but it isn't just you - it is everyone who can't accept people slightly different than them. Being trans is not something somebody would ever wish for or want, and it is something that negatively affects their entire life. Think before you speak.
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This whole discussion is flawed imo. "they arnt really women"
With that comes the assumption that there is something unique biologically to being borne women.
Now this may be completely and utterly true.
But how "woman" "man" "femanine" "masculine" etc. are percieved and understood widely in no way reflects this.
If people who feel that the idea that someone can identify as femanine is stupid if your borne with genitals that do not conform to this.
Ask yourself this, How many things do you associate with ideas of femanine, and masculine. That can only be described by biological makeup? To phrase this better, how many of the things you associate with femanine and masculine would be impossible, to be characteristics of peoples personality, sexuality, how the feel, express themselves, idenfity. If they did not bioligically have a vagina or penis?
If you think about this honestly, I would suspect that you will be in a situation where you have a huge ammount of things you associate, but not very many you could uniquely say "only those borne with a vagina could feel this, express this, dress this, desire this" and vice versa.
Every single thing you can list as being unique to being biologically borne as a certain sex, fine, thinking yourself otherwise might be a disorder. However if you honestly engage in trying to come up with these things you'll find you have a huge number of things, but very little that can only be explained by "was born with x" (x being genitals)
From this perspective gender dysphoria might not be so unintelligable, although if it still is id be interested to hear the precise characteristics you identify as only being able to belong honestly to a person born of a certain sex.
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On December 06 2012 07:52 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 06:37 NicolBolas wrote:
The problem is with your question itself; you're asking the wrong thing. You shouldn't condition your acceptance of gender dysphoria based on the ability of others to describe it. You should condition it based on the available facts. The question you should be asking is this: what is the available evidence around gender dysphoria?
Psychologists have determined that gender dysphoria is real. There are numerous papers about the concept and other concepts relating to gender.
So the question I have for you is this: do you accept the majority opinion of most of the people who have done research into the field? Or do you not? That's what I'm doing. I'm asking for research showing proof, but I haven't found any. I don't deny that gender dysphoria is real. I do believe that trans women, made the choice they made because of being convinced it was the right thing. But when they say that they did it because their mental gender wasn't the same as their body, I don't buy it, and noone have been able to prove that concept. I think it's just a way to justify their actions, and to convince themselves that they are the new gender. I think that they should be able to do what they want, but I don't accept when they use theories and claim they are facts, because it misleads ppl.
You have been shown research. You simply didn't accept that research. So explain this:
You are not a psychological professional. You haven't done the level of research that they have. You don't know what they know. You may have read some studies, but the fact is, you simply aren't as familiar with it as they are.
They say that mental gender is real. You don't buy it. By what reasoning do you say that your interpretation is correct and theirs is all wrong?
See, it's not they who have to prove anything. It's you. Just like with people who argue against scientific consensus on other topics, it's you who needs to provide evidence of your position.
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On December 06 2012 08:38 XeliN wrote:
This whole discussion is flawed imo. "they arnt really women"
With that comes the assumption that there is something unique biologically to being borne women.
Now this may be completely and utterly true.
But how "woman" "man" "femanine" "masculine" etc. are percieved and understood widely in no way reflects this.
If people who feel that the idea that someone can identify as femanine is stupid if your borne with genitals that do not conform to this.
Ask yourself this, How many things do you associate with ideas of femanine, and masculine. That can only be described by biological makeup? To phrase this better, how many of the things you associate with femanine and masculine would be impossible, to be characteristics of peoples personality, sexuality, how the feel, express themselves, idenfity. If they did not bioligically have a vagina or penis?
If you think about this honestly, I would suspect that you will be in a situation where you have a huge ammount of things you associate, but not very many you could uniquely say "only those borne with a vagina could feel this, express this, dress this, desire this" and vice versa.
Every single thing you can list as being unique to being biologically borne as a certain sex, fine, thinking yourself otherwise might be a disorder. However if you honestly engage in trying to come up with these things you'll find you have a huge number of things, but very little that can only be explained by "was born with x" (x being genitals)
From this perspective gender dysphoria might not be so unintelligable, although if it still is id be interested to hear the precise characteristics you identify as only being able to belong honestly to a person born of a certain sex.
That is another extreme. A lot of biologically given characteristics of sexes are projected into social roles and important thing again is statistics. The fact that there are boys playing with dolls does not mean that the observation that boys usually don't is not valid and important.
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EPT
