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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
On December 05 2012 04:50 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:42 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? behavior changes with hormones (among other things). human beings were acting a certain way before they could articulate it. or, labels were already there before people learned to utter them. Edit: you're arguing about why would i call a tree a tree, or i don't get it. in the end it doesn't really mater how you call it but you have to call it something 'cause its already there/it exists. No, this has nothing to do with trees, as trees play no active role in their own identification. Like I've already said, a major component of gender deconstruction is the idea individuals have the right to be labeled in accordance with their own gender identification or lack there of, not in strict adherence to outdated concepts of female and male appearance.
i was talking about the root of the issue or the place it all started so to speak, but you talk about the definitions people made up for other different people, to put it somehow generally.
those are only theoretical constructs with no innate value to the person whom you're categorizing as such.
ps: i've no dea how rights fit into all of this. legal rights?, to be called "names"?.
If a person with a penis feels like a woman and wants to be referred to as such, that is their right, something previously considered taboo.
would that mean that before i could address to someone, anyone, i should skip past the appearances and straight up ask them if they desire to be talked to as if he/she was feeling the other way arround?. sounds like a lot of hassle just for ... theory sake.
besides, what you said was not taboo because people didnt referr to them as they would feel like, gender wise, it was taboo because they were how they were, physically.
from where i'm sitting you're arguing semantics and think that being in the right category will make transgender people fell ... normal?.
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I see. So there's a distinguishable difference between a trans female and a man with the delusion of being female? Do you know whether it's the constant act of thinking you're female that leads to changes in your brain structure, or is it that your brain is originally already that of a woman?
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Good morning TL. Gonna respond to some questions/posts on the first six pages or so. I'm impressed that it's been pretty civil.
On December 04 2012 18:31 StarStrider wrote:
Maybe someone could explain more clearly why I'm wrong, but even though I am the biggest proponent in the world (family member is trans), I fail to see how a mental disconnect like feeling like the gender of your conciousness doesn't match your body ISN'T a disorder qualifying for treatment under DSM? I mean, if we are offering a slough of medical treatments for this identity issue, then there should be a medical diagnosis based on a disorder. It is in no way the same to me as homosexuality, which isn't something that should even involve a doctor's input.
Hell, how can we diagnose a child or teen and allow them to begin social transition without defining it as a doctor diagnosed medical issue? How can we give hormone blockers for something that isn't even a disorder?
It actually still IS a disorder, or, rather, the dysphoria is.
See, originally, the DSMV called it Gender Identity Disorder, and defined it roughly as having a gender identity that doesn't match the body. This basically equated to the persons gender identity being what was the issue, not the depression onset (in most/all cases) by it.
Now, gender dysphoria is the disorder, which is the actually depression from this sex/gender mismatch.
To try to make an analogy, pretend that there was a disorder named War Veteran, and the symptoms of war veteran were PTSD. The change would make the disorder PTSD, not simply being a veteran of war. If that makes sense?
Essentially, the change is political in many ways, and may help getting insurance companies to actually provide for people with Gender Dysphoria, instead of declining treatment payment on the 'it's icky!' basis.
On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair.
Not quite--I would have still transitioned even if I didn't have any social interaction with others. Stigma from society is a huge aspect of depression (in fact, it has probably fucked me up more than the dysphoria itself) but it is only a side part of the reason transsexuals choose to transition.
On December 04 2012 17:03 ninini wrote:
When I hear talk of not feeling like your gender, or that the brain is of the wrong gender, you lose me. Biologically, gender is pretty straightforward. Except for mutations, you are either male or female, no exceptions, and it's impossible to confuse the two.
Feminism tries to make male and female into the same thing, while the concept of transgender goes the other way, claiming that if you don't relate to your gender, you should change.
Neither of these concepts would exist if we just saw the genders for what they actually were, and got rid of the stereotypes. I don't see any reason why a man couldn't wear a dress, put on a lot of makeup, and overall act in a stereotypical female way, without having to question his gender. Why let stereotypes confuse you?
If someone feels like they don't belong to their gender, then maybe they should try redefining their ideas about what gender really is, rather than changing themselves. I just think it's sad, because you can't question your gender without questioning your existence.
Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not against transgenders. I'm not gonna decide what is allowed to do with your own body, but when someone says that a certain part of them feels like and qualifies them as the other gender, it doesn't make sense, and it shows a lack of understanding in genetics.
That's not entirely true--sex may be a male/female binary, but gender is way more fluid. Think about it, we have men that are very femmy, to very masculine, women who are very femmy to very masculine, and everywhere inbetween even to androgyny. It's not changing ones self to fit in with societies roles exclusively--hell, I still do mostly guy stuff/wear guyish clothes--but rather the satisfaction of having a body/brain alignment.
Does that help explain it a bit better? If you have any more questions about it you can always PM me.
also @bolded, try not to use it as a noun. It'd be like saying "I'm not against blacks." Use it as an adjective--we're still people 
On December 04 2012 17:09 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
Reading that quote in the OP, I'm wondering. If you're born a girl but you want to be a man, how do you know what it feels like to be a man? I mean, I've read about people who had a sexchange but later reverted it, which kind of implies that it was all in their head. Like, I have zero idea about what it would be like to be a woman.
I love this question, because the answer is usually pretty simple; you have no frame of reference of what it is like to be male or female except how you are, yes? The answer is that you know that something is innately wrong. So, in the case of an mtf, you might not know completely that you have a female gender, but you absolutely know you don't have a male one.
On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment?
Yes, it shows a significant decrease in suicide rates.
On December 04 2012 15:57 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term. Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket.
In America it almost always is, unless you get really really lucky, or have a special plan that covers it (some govt-employee plans and university plans are just beginning to cover it!)
I'm about to pay out of pocket for it. It's pretty bullshit I have to go into debt for a medical reason that all of my doctors can immediately say is medically necessary. But that's stigma for ya.
On December 04 2012 16:08 tokicheese wrote:
I think it's pretty clearly a mental "issue". It's not necessarily a negative thing but it is a product of your mind. I don't know enough about the DSM to say whether or not it should be included but imo it should. Someone who is distressed by something occurring in their mind that they cannot help imo is suffering from a mental disorder.
You're correct, and part of transsexuality is still being considered a mental disorder, so we can continue to treat individuals suffering! it's just the part of it that is labeled the disorder is being changed.
On December 04 2012 19:08 Thorakh wrote:
It's not really hard to understand, people can be born with three arms, with no eyes, with congenital analgesia, etc. so why couldn't they be born with a wrong body?
But doesn't that mean that it's not a mental disorder but a body disorder? As in a physical handicap?
I'm kinda uneducated on this matter, but how advanced is gender/sex (sorry! I don't know which one it is) reassignment surgery?
MTF: Most doctors use a modified version of penile inversion. Much sensitivity is still intact, and in most cases sexual function is retained (ie; ability to orgasm.) In most cases there will be no self-lubrication (some studies have shown that over time the tissue changes into a neo-mucus membrane tissue... inconclusive) and dilation of the neo-vagina is necessary to retain depth (aka; sticking a resin tube into yourself 3+ times a day for the first 6 months of surgery, then once a day for the rest of your life.)
There is talk of using a new form of grafting, involving a cheek-tissue swap that would both self-lubricate and prevent need for dilation
FTM: Not entirely up on the details, but it's way less refined.
On December 04 2012 21:50 KrosusZorg wrote:Show nested quote + In reality they can never have the body of the opposite gender so no matter how hard you try this "nightmare" can't be taken away with modern technology. According to all the people in the thread with actual personal experience, it seems like surgery and hormonal therapy does indeed improve these peoples mental health and quality of life, so you are clearly wrong.
^^^ Literally the bottom line.
On December 04 2012 22:11 bOneSeven wrote:
According to a very close psychologist friend of mine this completely wrong, transgender people are one of the most messed up people alive...They are also extremely likely to commit suicide, and most of them are living through terrible depression...
You don't literally feel good in your own body, that is a serious condition, and people shouldn't have prejudices against such people because they live a very complicated and painful life as it is ( most of them, I'm sure there are some exceptions ).
Nah, I agree, we are pretty fucked up, and we have something like a 50% suicide rate.
However, the depression part of it is still considered a disorder--as it should be. Because it needs to be treated. I think a ton of people are missing that part of this lol.
Basically, what the APA is saying is there's nothing innately wrong about being transsexual--but if you have the usually associated dysphoria, then that IS an issue that should be treated.
On December 04 2012 23:24 3Form wrote:
Why not alter the mind in order to satisfy the body?
It has been tried, and appears to have never reached a credible positive outcome (in most cases the patient just blows their brains out.)
Altering the body is much more practical, and leads to a fulfilling outcome for most individuals.
On December 04 2012 23:24 3Form wrote:
And my final bigoted point - what effect would taking doses of testosterone have on a male who felt he should be a female?
Well, an MtF already produces testosterone... but any cases of further dosage just leads to further depression.
Oddly enough, most males with low testosterone feel depression, but trans women when put on androgen blockers to reduce testosterone feel more happy. I think that in and of itself speaks a lot of validity.
On December 05 2012 01:19 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +If it happened to be the case that medical technology allowed for a complete gender transfer, without noticeable differences; then i might think differently. Well, as far as I know MtF will make you a complete female with the only thing missing being the ability to reproduce. I heard even the vagina can be constructed in such a way to have pleasurable sex.
The science technology is there to actually allow a trans woman to have a child... but ethical questions and lack of testing of procedures will likely cause that to never see fruit within my lifetime.
I've long given up the hope of any way to have a child sans adoption.
On December 05 2012 05:31 jdseemoreglass wrote:
People need to be a little more careful not to make contradicting arguments here...
You cannot simultaneously argue that gender is an invented social construct, and that gender is something identified with on a biological level. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Either gender is purely a social construct, or a biological mechanism.
Obviously some aspects are purely social constructs... For example, the fact that women wear dresses is a purely social construct. Then you cannot argue that anyone feels a biological desire to wear a dress, ONLY that they feel a biological desire to be identified by others a certain way. Which means that in particular would be an interpersonal phenomenon and not an internal one. These are critical distinctions to make clear.
I think it's more correct to say; Gender identity is innate. Gender norms are a social construct.
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On December 05 2012 04:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:33 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:29 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:24 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis? Well, a big part of the deconstruction of gender labels deals with returning self-identicative agency to the individual, so ultimately, the propriety of a label relies somewhat upon the determination of the person in question. Hmm, okay. Mind commenting on this?
Wait, if someone likes to do stereotypically "male" things, is not really uncomfortable with having a penis, is attracted to women, then how is it that they can say they're actually female inside?
Is it just that they want to be referred to as female? More or less. Hmm, let me put it into different words. Throughout the bulk of our organized, civilized history, we applied the "talks like a duck, walks like a duck, its a duck" philosophy to the application of gender labels; however, it has become increasingly clear that the "feeling" of a gender and the typical sexual indicators of gender are not as closely linked as we once thought (and previously, they were considered undivorceable). In other words, humans aren't ducks 
I don't know if I understand what you just said. If you feel a certain way, (and act like it), you are this way? It must be more complicated than that. I don't know if you heard about this but there was girl who was born (or abandoned as a baby) in a forest and raised by wolves and considered herself as a wolf. I don't know if she ever met another human being. She was genuinely feeling this way despite her human look/characteristics. Would you consider her a wolf?
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People need to be a little more careful not to make contradicting arguments here...
You cannot simultaneously argue that gender is an invented social construct, and that gender is something identified with on a biological level. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Either gender is purely a social construct, or a biological mechanism.
Obviously some aspects are purely social constructs... For example, the fact that women wear dresses is a purely social construct. Then you cannot argue that anyone feels a biological desire to wear a dress, ONLY that they feel a biological desire to be identified by others a certain way. Which means that in particular would be an interpersonal phenomenon and not an internal one. These are critical distinctions to make clear.
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Regarding pronouns and "gender is not what is between your legs":
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people use 'male' and 'female' to refer to a person's sex, not to a person's self-identity. Likewise, the vast majority of people use 'tall' to refer to a person's height, not to whether or not that person feels tall.
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On December 05 2012 05:23 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place.
But then, can this deconstruction of gender be applied to your age, your skin color, or your ethnicity? If not, why?
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On December 05 2012 05:14 Rhayader wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:07 Chocobo wrote:On December 05 2012 04:45 Thorakh wrote:
"... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
Sadly people like him form the majority of the world. People who would rather deprive someone of their happiness than stop being stupid and try to understand the issue. Exactly. Look at his all-too-common view of the issue... "don't know, don't wanna know, just keep those "others" away from me." Comparable to a racist seeing a black person or a Jesus freak seeing a Muslim woman in a burqa, he sees a transgender person as a lower class of human that doesn't deserve respect and isn't worth thinking about. It's just "stay away from me and I'll be fine"... and if he encounters one, I doubt pleasant words would be exchanged. Sorry if this came off sounding harsh, I'm not trying to say he is as bad as a racist... it's just that being uneducated about a topic like this isn't great thing for society. If it's all too common, then maybe did you stop to think that i'm in the right? As in the natural order of things. And how am i depriving them of happiness if i don't engage in contact with them? You're implying their happiness is directly correlated to my interactions with them. I'm sure they will be just fine without getting to know me, especially when they have you to embrace them with open arms.
Ok then, I'll let my Swedish compatriots know that it's ok to be rude and dismissive of immigrants because it's "the natural order". They won't mind since they don't need our understanding or compassion. Bbl, closing down the borders!
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On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification
Ohh I remember you! You're the kid who said that racism is only racism as long as the the majority uses it to marginalize a minority. Ohh your logic is always the best to see! I'm glad you are still taking it upon yourself to argue your erroneous poorly-constructed points of view.
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On December 05 2012 05:19 packrat386 wrote:Also calling advances in civil rights for LBGT people "attention whoring" is incredibly offensive. They want to be treated like normal people, but because of the way our society is currently oriented they are FORCED oftentimes to point out behaviour that they view is inappropriate because that behaviour (gay bashing etc) is often socially acceptable and even encouraged.
Members of the LGBT community are obtuse and bigoted about of lot of things just like everybody else. Often in Paris do I meet homosexuals who still treat other members of their community with stereotypes (someone used butch in this very thread). Civil rights has to come for everyone, not just the one who fights for it. And the known part of the community are people like FEMEN who are more or less "attention-whores". Whereas this attention seeking is justified is another topic but their actions is definitely meant to capture attention from the public and mainstream media.
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On December 05 2012 05:36 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:23 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place. But then, can this deconstruction of gender be applied to your age, your skin color, or your ethnicity? If not, why?
Well, things like your age and skin color are concretely true, so you can't say you're 18 if you were born 30 years ago. The difference is that you can't simply look at someone (or their genes) and tell what gender they are. At birth they are assigned a gender based on their genitalia, but that is not always a good classification. Someone can be female and have a penis whereas they could not be 18 and be born 30 years ago. Once again you conflate sex and gender, which simple isn't the case.
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On December 05 2012 05:31 jdseemoreglass wrote:
People need to be a little more careful not to make contradicting arguments here...
You cannot simultaneously argue that gender is an invented social construct, and that gender is something identified with on a biological level. Those two things are mutually exclusive. Either gender is purely a social construct, or a biological mechanism.
Obviously some aspects are purely social constructs... For example, the fact that women wear dresses is a purely social construct. Then you cannot argue that anyone feels a biological desire to wear a dress, ONLY that they feel a biological desire to be identified by others a certain way. Which means that in particular would be an interpersonal phenomenon and not an internal one. These are critical distinctions to make clear.
As a trans girl, I have no problem with this point of view. While I identify as a woman and would like to be perceived as such, I have no interest in conforming to specific gender roles, and I have no strong desire to wear dresses.
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On December 05 2012 05:36 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:23 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place. But then, can this deconstruction of gender be applied to your age, your skin color, or your ethnicity? If not, why?
Skin color and ethnicity are certainly ripe for some very productive deconstructions (I don't really know anything about people who feel a different age than they currently are). I mean, to get anecdotal about things, I personally do not appear hispanic really at all, as I'm tall, broad shouldered, and fairly light skinned. However, I spent a great amount of my childhood traveling to Mexico and living with a variety of my Hispanic relatives, and have more or less grown up "Hispanic" in many ways. Personally, though, I am very tired of identity study, but I still think it can help a fair number of people become more comfortable with what oftentimes becomes a disconnect between "apparent identity" and "self-perceived identity".
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It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form nor does it harm anyone (and therefore cannot be morally wrong).
(obviously the same applies for FtM)
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On December 05 2012 05:47 Thorakh wrote:
It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form.
(obviously the same applies for FtM)
I don't think anyone is talking about denying people the right to have sex reassignment surgery. At least I hope not. By denying, do you mean not wanting the government to pay for it or something?
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On December 05 2012 05:40 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:36 Thurken wrote:On December 05 2012 05:23 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place. But then, can this deconstruction of gender be applied to your age, your skin color, or your ethnicity? If not, why? Well, things like your age and skin color are concretely true, so you can't say you're 18 if you were born 30 years ago. The difference is that you can't simply look at someone (or their genes) and tell what gender they are. At birth they are assigned a gender based on their genitalia, but that is not always a good classification. Someone can be female and have a penis whereas they could not be 18 and be born 30 years ago. Once again you conflate sex and gender, which simple isn't the case.
You are doing the same exact thing than him, you shouldn't act like this. Here is a more correct version of what you wrote :
At birth they are assigned a sex based on their genitalia, but that is not always what they feel about themselves. Someone could consider themselves of the women gender and have a penis (biological sex).
PS : Just because you are a member of the LGBT community doesn't mean you know the underlying theory of gender and its relation to psychology, biology and neurology.
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Hi there. I myself identify as a trans person and I'd just like to clear up a lot of misconceptions in this thread. First, some vocabulary:
Transgender: umbrella term for people who do not line up with the gender binary as it is usually conceived. Includes transsexual, genderqueer, intersex, transvestite, agender, etc.
Transsexual: Someone whose gender does not align with their sex.
Cissexual: Someone whose gender does align with their sex.
Ok, so that being said, one of the major problems in this thread is that there is a huge prevalence of cissexual privilege that most are not even aware they have. It's completely impossible to appeal to reason with you when you don't recognize your privilege, so hopefully, I can make you more aware. The examples in this thread so far (imagine if you were born a girl but still had the same mind) will not and cannot work, for the cissexual assumes that if he were born a girl, he would simply identify as a girl. Thus, a different sort of mindset is required.
Try this example: Suppose you (a cissexual male) wake up tomorrow in the same mind and body that you are in right now. You feel exactly as you always have. You drive to the store to do some shopping. While in the men's clothing section, someone says: "Excuse me, madam, you are in the wrong section." You use the restroom, they say: "It's against the law to use the wrong restroom. Please leave." You walk around in your male clothes, and people say things like: "You're not REALLY a man. Stop pretending you sick fuck."
This is your cissexual privilege. You have never been questioned about your gender identity. You have never had to defend yourself as being who you really are. But one does not have to have a great deal of imagination to see how this could happen: Perhaps you got into a car accident, and it damaged your genitalia such that you no longer produced testosterone. And perhaps your vocal chords got damaged so you no longer have a deep voice. Indeed, people would question who you are. But you KNOW you're a guy, because you always have been. And no matter how much people treat you as female, do you really think they could someone socially mesmerize you into identifying as being female?
The other point I want to make is that there is a clear error in both gender constructionist and gender essentialist views, and neither are compatible with transsexualism. Gender constructionist says: There's no such thing as a "real" gender - we just made this stuff up. Therefore, there can be no such thing as a transsexual, because there's nothing innately female or male in the world, just stuff we made up. So there's no reason for you to want to change your body other than social norms.
Gender constructionists must ignore decades of research on intersexed individuals. Scientists thought with intersex, if you just remove one of the "defective"genitals, you could raise the child as if they were the sex (and gender) of your choice. Turns out, this was a fucking disaster. It was wrong. Intersexed individuals often end up discovering their condition and wish to revert to the other sex.
Gender essentialists, on the other hand - those that believe that we are "born" with genders - are equally wrong. We clearly have a wide variety of gender preferences and roles in society, from tomboyish women to effeminate men. And clearly to some degree these traits can be influenced by our upbringing. Female mannerisms such as occupying little space, having a weak handshake, walking in a particular way, wearing makeup, being "pretty" - are not necessary to being a woman. Nor is being a strong alpha male necessary to being a man.
It's high time we stopped pretending that gender is either completely constructed or essential to our biology. Gender and sexuality is fluid, it occupies far more than a mere binary. It's both constructed and biological, just like intelligence, work ethic, social skills, etc. We have innate tendencies that we tend to go towards, that can be enhanced or downplayed based on our in environments.
A final point, specifically to the people that say we must identify men and women based on their chromosomes or their genitalia: This completely ignores the fact that whether we are treated as a man or woman has absolutely nothing to do with these things. No one walks around with their birth certificates, and I am willing to bet that not a single fucking person in this thread has ever had their chromosomes examined (and if they did, they might get a surprising result, like xxy). Nor do we treat people as women or men based on their primary sexual characteristics (penis or vagina) at first glance. Rather, 99% of the reason we treat someone as a man or woman is based on an instantaneous evaluation of their secondary characteristics. To claim anything else is ad hoc reasoning applied after the fact.
Also, being transgender is not a mental disorder in my opinion because this implies that transsexuals need "therapy." The reality, though, is that the existence of the strict requirements for medications and surgeries to transition is more about protecting cissexual people that might be mistaken (perhaps .00000001% of the population) rather than helping people who actually are transsexual. That's why it's called a disorder - to protect cissexuals.
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On December 05 2012 05:49 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:47 Thorakh wrote:
It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form.
(obviously the same applies for FtM) I don't think anyone is talking about denying people the right to have sex reassignment surgery. At least I hope not. By denying, do you mean not wanting the government to pay for it or something? No, that's an entirely different discussion of course.
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On December 05 2012 05:34 Severedevil wrote:
Regarding pronouns and "gender is not what is between your legs":
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people use 'male' and 'female' to refer to a person's sex, not to a person's self-identity. Likewise, the vast majority of people use 'tall' to refer to a person's height, not to whether or not that person feels tall.
That would make a strong analogy if it were in any way aligned with reality. People use the concept of gender in their language all the time "A manly man" or "shes so femanine" "abit of a tom boy", the style of peoples clothes, sexuality (being gay is often considered to be demasculinising, particular if your the "reciever")
I could go on and on and on providing examples, but it should be fairly clear to anyone that gender as a concept means far far more in our society than simply your chromosomes//genitals.
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On December 05 2012 05:47 Thorakh wrote:
It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form nor does it harm anyone (and therefore cannot be morally wrong).
(obviously the same applies for FtM)
Pretty sure you should be using female pronouns, other than that, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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EPT
