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On December 05 2012 04:33 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:29 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:24 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis? Well, a big part of the deconstruction of gender labels deals with returning self-identicative agency to the individual, so ultimately, the propriety of a label relies somewhat upon the determination of the person in question. Hmm, okay. Mind commenting on this? Show nested quote +
Wait, if someone likes to do stereotypically "male" things, is not really uncomfortable with having a penis, is attracted to women, then how is it that they can say they're actually female inside?
Is it just that they want to be referred to as female?
More or less. Hmm, let me put it into different words. Throughout the bulk of our organized, civilized history, we applied the "talks like a duck, walks like a duck, its a duck" philosophy to the application of gender labels; however, it has become increasingly clear that the "feeling" of a gender and the typical sexual indicators of gender are not as closely linked as we once thought (and previously, they were considered undivorceable). In other words, humans aren't ducks 
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On December 05 2012 04:29 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. You just be glad you don't wake up tomorrow and find out you're in a woman's body.
That's irrelevant. People don't become transgender because their body was suddenly swapped with a different one overnight.
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On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise.
They don't ban people for having opinions, they ban people for being hurtful and ignorant.
I am just going to come out right now: I'm a 17-year-old trans girl, and nobody I know is disgusted by my appearance, most of them can't even "tell" that I'm transgender. So, not only are you openly criticizing the appearances of real people on the Internet, you're displaying your ignorance of the topic.
"... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
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On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels?
behavior changes with hormones (among other things).
human beings were acting a certain way before they could articulate it.
or, labels were already there before people learned to utter them.
Edit: you're arguing about why would i call a tree a tree, or i don't get it. in the end it doesn't really mater how you call it but you have to call it something 'cause its already there/it exists.
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On December 05 2012 04:41 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:29 Thorakh wrote:On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. You just be glad you don't wake up tomorrow and find out you're in a woman's body. That's irrelevant. People don't become transgender because their body was suddenly swapped with a different one overnight. It's not irrelevant. I am merely illustrating how it must feel to be transgender.
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"... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
Sadly people like him form the majority of the world.
People who would rather deprive someone of their happiness than stop being stupid and try to understand the issue.
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On December 05 2012 04:42 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? behavior changes with hormones (among other things). human beings were acting a certain way before they could articulate it. or, labels were already there before people learned to utter them. Edit: you're arguing about why would i call a tree a tree, or i don't get it. in the end it doesn't really mater how you call it but you have to call it something 'cause its already there/it exists.
No, this has nothing to do with trees, as trees play no active role in their own identification. Like I've already said, a major component of gender deconstruction is the idea individuals have the right to be labeled in accordance with their own gender identification or lack there of, not in strict adherence to outdated concepts of female and male appearance. If a person with a penis feels like a woman and wants to be referred to as such, that is their right, something previously considered taboo.
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On December 05 2012 04:43 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:41 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 04:29 Thorakh wrote:On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. You just be glad you don't wake up tomorrow and find out you're in a woman's body. That's irrelevant. People don't become transgender because their body was suddenly swapped with a different one overnight. It's not irrelevant. I am merely illustrating how it must feel to be transgender.
Um, to be swapped into a stranger's (or a friend's) body overnight is almost certainly not the same as growing up with body dysmorphia. We can't know for sure because nobody can actually be swapped into another's body, but the feelings are not identical in both cases (one is generally a gradual realization, one an instantaneous change, one a radical instantaneous appearance change, one no appearance change at all).
The differences in treatment in fiction illustrate this fairly well, though that's obviously fiction.
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On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people).
I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth.
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On December 05 2012 04:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:33 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:29 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:24 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:20 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:18 starfries wrote:On December 05 2012 04:15 Kaorix wrote:
this thread is full of privileged fucks, mutilation? male to cat transitions? pedophile discussion? we're only trying to transition from non-functioning, depressed, suicidal humans, into functioning humans, that's the only transition here. why is it so hard to just accept that there are certain medical treatments that help a specific group of people? some of these medical treatments aren't even surgery, i know plenty of trans people who don't "mutilate" their body with surgery. It's just a discussion. We're trying to understand. Why are you so offended? On December 05 2012 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:11 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:10 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? The labels aren't the same as the gender. When we say gender we're referring to a way you identify yourself. We could call that identification anything (and many cultures do call them different things). The gender would still be there regardless of what we called it. The gender with no name actually has one: sex. Once we use the physical indicators of sex to dole out an ID, we've performed a gender construction. That is all I'm suggesting. Sex has always been there, gender not so much. Gender and sex are different. Sex is your genitals. Gender is how you identify. There are three categories of identification. Sex: your genitals Orientation: the genitals that make you tingly Gender: a category of self identification Where does genetics fall? Two X chromosomes makes you a female, but in which sense? Two X chromosomes=Sex Female=Gender So if you don't call someone "female" just because they have two X chromosomes, what label do you use? What if someone has two X chromosomes and a penis? Well, a big part of the deconstruction of gender labels deals with returning self-identicative agency to the individual, so ultimately, the propriety of a label relies somewhat upon the determination of the person in question. Hmm, okay. Mind commenting on this?
Wait, if someone likes to do stereotypically "male" things, is not really uncomfortable with having a penis, is attracted to women, then how is it that they can say they're actually female inside?
Is it just that they want to be referred to as female? More or less. Hmm, let me put it into different words. Throughout the bulk of our organized, civilized history, we applied the "talks like a duck, walks like a duck, its a duck" philosophy to the application of gender labels; however, it has become increasingly clear that the "feeling" of a gender and the typical sexual indicators of gender are not as closely linked as we once thought (and previously, they were considered undivorceable). In other words, humans aren't ducks
Alright. Happy 3000th, by the way :D
I hate to bring up the "guy who thinks he's a cat" thing again, but I'd really like it cleared up. So: is feeling like you were supposed to be a cat a disorder? Assuming the answer is yes, if there was a viable method of turning someone into a cat without affecting their mind, would it still be a disorder? (Assuming yes), is it because someone who calls themselves "female" actually has the mind of a female, whereas someone who calls themselves a "cat" actually has the mind of a human that only thinks they're a cat? If that's the case, is there a way to distinguish between a human mind that actually is female versus a human mind that merely thinks they are in the way someone would think they're a cat?
I have no idea if you're a psychologist so that might be beyond the scope of your expertise.
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On December 04 2012 23:43 AngryMag wrote:
But I have to say that I cannot really understand people who go through a year long process, involving multiple surgeries, hormone therapies to completely change their gender. Boggles my mind to be honest. Our societies should try to teach the young ones to be more satisfied with their appearances again, instead of chasing unrealistic ideals.
Don't know if it is a good choice to put the transgender thing off the "psychological disorder" list. In the end I simply don't care enough to put some deep thoughts into it, but my first reaction is "not a smart choice" because I think it encourages people, who are on the brink, to undergo surgery and drastically change their bodies, which I don't think is a good idea.
Even as someone who supports people getting these surgeries, I'll admit that I can't understand it myself. I would not want to have a woman's body (other than the "lol rofl I'd play with my boobs all day" factor, which would get old after a short while)... but I think I would accept living that way before I'd get surgery to change things.
But here's the thing- what we think doesn't matter. It's about what the transgender person thinks. They clearly feel an extreme need to change their bodies, to the point where suicide starts looking appealing if they aren't allowed to do it. If these surgeries truly improve the quality of their life... who are we to say they shouldn't do it?
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On December 05 2012 04:42 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. They don't ban people for having opinions, they ban people for being hurtful and ignorant. I am just going to come out right now: I'm a 17-year-old trans girl, and nobody I know is disgusted by my appearance, most of them can't even "tell" that I'm transgender. So, not only are you openly criticizing the appearances of real people on the Internet, you're displaying your ignorance of the topic. "... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
I'm sorry i offended you, didn't realize anyone gives a shit about what others have to say on the internet, especially when they are talking in a general sense. Glad you found people that accept and embrace you for who you truly are, if you were born in my home country, you would have a very hard time for sure heh. I may call it ignorance, but my argument is, why should i bother trying to understand you when i don't care to know you. I don't impose on others that they should try to have a deep understanding of me as a person, so why the double standard?
Whenever i see a hot topic about homosexuals, transsexuals and some other variation, the general feeling i get is that most of the people who will comment will have to be very careful, treading on thin ice, not to say something hurtful towards said minorities. This, to me is a form of attention whoring + playing the victim + overly sensible combination, which i don't particularly like. You want to be treated like the rest of us, but you never skip a beat in pointing out whenever someone says something inappropriate according to your moral values. Very clever in a way, forcing the rest of the population in reacting to your needs.
Don't know why but i have an urge to affiliate myself to the republican party all of a sudden.
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On December 05 2012 04:02 tMomiji wrote:
Huh?
This doesn't sound quite right. I thought it was a mental disorder since they're born with a brain that doesn't match their body. I mean that doesn't mean they should be discriminated against, but...this leaves me scratching my head a little.
Am I just being stupid again?
To call it a disorder is to deny their gender identity (you only think you are X because you have a mental disorder). It means that "cures" would focus on convincing these people to live as the gender they were assigned at birth. Gender is not a question of what is in between your legs so its not matter of "brain doesn't match their body" its that their body makes it difficult for them to live as the gender they identify as, both because of societal norms and because of the internal trauma it causes them (most guys want a penis and vice versa). Now treatment for individuals with gender dysphoria will focus on helping them to live comfortably as a member of the gender that they identify with.
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On December 05 2012 04:45 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +
"... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
Sadly people like him form the majority of the world. People who would rather deprive someone of their happiness than stop being stupid and try to understand the issue.
Exactly. Look at his all-too-common view of the issue... "don't know, don't wanna know, just keep those "others" away from me."
Comparable to a racist seeing a black person or a Jesus freak seeing a Muslim woman in a burqa, he sees a transgender person as a lower class of human that doesn't deserve respect and isn't worth thinking about. It's just "stay away from me and I'll be fine"... and if he encounters one, I doubt pleasant words would be exchanged.
Sorry if this came off sounding harsh, I'm not trying to say he is as bad as a racist... it's just that being uneducated about a topic like this isn't great thing for society.
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It was about time they took gender identity disorder off the list of mental disorders. The gender dysphoria itself (the severe emotional pain that comes from the incongruence between neuroanatomical gender and assigned sex that drives people to transition or suicide) is the mental disorder, just like chronic depression.
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The thing is, what is a mental disorder? Is it bad? Can it lead to discrimination like the OP implied?
The only mentally disorder that I could consider "bad" or at least worry me are the one that could make someone physically harm me (and not psychologically harm me, unless it is some sort of recognized harassment but i'm besides the point here...).
If I am a white dude and I think I am a black dude, am I like mentally ill? If I am a old man and I think I'm a child, am I mentally ill? If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? If I think I am two persons at once (kind of schizophrenic), I am mentally ill? If I am not socially adapted (kind of autistic), am I mentally ill?
These are the questions I would ask myself and I'd like to think what society think of that, but that leads to the definition of mentally ill and its practical consequences.
I will never discriminate the person I described in the second paragraph, but I will not consider them what they think they are (if a white man think he is black, I cannot consider him the same way, unless if I want to be polite with him).
I don't believe in the "you are what you think you are", like the gender is your self identification or your ethnic origin is your self identification ethnic origin or your age is your self identification age... You can do that is you want to please people or to help them feel better but I don't see other justifications.
That being said I believe in everyone doing and feeling the way he wants to. If you want to feel or to act like a woman, it's up to you.
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On December 05 2012 05:07 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:45 Thorakh wrote:
"... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say?
Sadly people like him form the majority of the world. People who would rather deprive someone of their happiness than stop being stupid and try to understand the issue. Exactly. Look at his all-too-common view of the issue... "don't know, don't wanna know, just keep those "others" away from me." Comparable to a racist seeing a black person or a Jesus freak seeing a Muslim woman in a burqa, he sees a transgender person as a lower class of human that doesn't deserve respect and isn't worth thinking about. It's just "stay away from me and I'll be fine"... and if he encounters one, I doubt pleasant words would be exchanged. Sorry if this came off sounding harsh, I'm not trying to say he is as bad as a racist... it's just that being uneducated about a topic like this isn't great thing for society.
If it's all too common, then maybe did you stop to think that i'm in the right? As in the natural order of things. And how am i depriving them of happiness if i don't engage in contact with them? You're implying their happiness is directly correlated to my interactions with them. I'm sure they will be just fine without getting to know me, especially when they have you to embrace them with open arms.
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On December 05 2012 04:58 Rhayader wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:42 Crawdad wrote:On December 05 2012 04:26 Rhayader wrote:
This is going to be very OT but: Why do so many of you care enough to engage in a complex and overlong discussion about transgenders and their problems? I personally never met one, and looking at the photos of the ones who comment below the article, i don't think i could keep a straight face if i would, let alone befriend them. So why do you all care so much about the problems of a very very niche segment of the population? Do you value being progressive and open minded so much? And why are people getting banned for being disapproving? If it's deemed normal to chop your dick off because of a compulsive need, i think it's more than normal for feeling disgust towards people who would perform such an action. Would be nice of admins if they didn't try to streamline all the posters on this site towards pretty much the same liberal/PC viewpoints by banning everyone who feels otherwise. They don't ban people for having opinions, they ban people for being hurtful and ignorant. I am just going to come out right now: I'm a 17-year-old trans girl, and nobody I know is disgusted by my appearance, most of them can't even "tell" that I'm transgender. So, not only are you openly criticizing the appearances of real people on the Internet, you're displaying your ignorance of the topic. "... let alone befriend them." Come on man, do you not see why that is a horrible thing to say? I'm sorry i offended you, didn't realize anyone gives a shit about what others have to say on the internet, especially when they are talking in a general sense. Glad you found people that accept and embrace you for who you truly are, if you were born in my home country, you would have a very hard time for sure heh. I may call it ignorance, but my argument is, why should i bother trying to understand you when i don't care to know you. I don't impose on others that they should try to have a deep understanding of me as a person, so why the double standard? Whenever i see a hot topic about homosexuals, transsexuals and some other variation, the general feeling i get is that most of the people who will comment will have to be very careful, treading on thin ice, not to say something hurtful towards said minorities. This, to me is a form of attention whoring + playing the victim + overly sensible combination, which i don't particularly like. You want to be treated like the rest of us, but you never skip a beat in pointing out whenever someone says something inappropriate according to your moral values. Very clever in a way, forcing the rest of the population in reacting to your needs. Don't know why but i have an urge to affiliate myself to the republican party all of a sudden.
What the fuck dude. You essentially come at this with the viewpoint that you out of hand think that transgendered people are ridiculous and unlikable and then you're surprised when people find that offensive? They aren't trying to force you to have a deep understanding of who they are, but they would like you to try to understand rudimentary facts about the difficulties of being transgendered in modern society so that you can STOP BEING SO BIGOTED. Knowing nothing about this person other than their gender identity you have already decided that you don't want to know them because of that alone.
Also calling advances in civil rights for LBGT people "attention whoring" is incredibly offensive. They want to be treated like normal people, but because of the way our society is currently oriented they are FORCED oftentimes to point out behaviour that they view is inappropriate because that behaviour (gay bashing etc) is often socially acceptable and even encouraged.
Its not that you don't know its that you refuse to learn. Its not that you don't help but that you refuse to care.
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On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill?
Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place.
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EPT
