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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Also, if thinking you're a cat doesn't harm you in any way, then there's nothing wrong with thinking you're a cat.
Are you saying transgender persons are faking it? They can simply choose to feel (well.. with therapy, to get over the horrible social construct..) like another gender? Or did their parents raise them poorly? Of course they were born with a gender identity..
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On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes.
Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one...
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On December 05 2012 01:48 BrTarolg wrote:
It is however, fascinatingly clear that many people in this thread (and not of their own fault) do not understand transgender or gender dysphoria very well.
But one should describe it as - imagine you were trapped in the body of an opposite sex, and forced by society to live as that sex from now on. It would be a humiliating, depressing (and for many transgender) suicidal experience.
Hormone therapy is one of the miracles of modern medicine which has been shown to cure the symptoms that these people have and allow them to live normal, happy lives
I know that nobody reads anything I write, but I would like to point out that I touched upon that a page earlier.
This kind of posts shows another fascinating thing: that people who feel like a certain sex absolutely fail to understand that this is not a universal human trait. Because I imagine that and I don't see a problem with that. What do you even mean by "forced by society to live as that sex"? If you are really forced by society to live as your sex dictates you, I feel sorry for you - but your tag is "United Kingdom" and last time I checked, that was not a hardcore Muslim country or anything like that, so you are pretty much free to do anything regardles of your sex, aren't you?
Maybe my problem in imagining the tragedy of "being forced to live as a female" is that I don't really live like a male anyway - at least definitely not in the way anything you could call a "society" would like it.
It all comes back to the marvelous post by floor exercise, also on the previous page: once, we are fighting gender stereotypes, because we want a free an equal word, the next minute we are using them to justify transgenderism? That does not make any sense at all.
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On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one...
Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male.
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Wait, if someone likes to do stereotypically "male" things, is not really uncomfortable with having a penis, is attracted to women, then how is it that they can say they're actually female inside?
I agree with the APA's move here, but it seems like the line is drawn simply because treating it as a mental disorder is no longer the most viable option since we have a physical treatment available and it becomes a matter of personal choice. Without that capability, I don't see why it wouldn't be classified as a mental disorder.
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On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example.
Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise.
Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures.
Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species.
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On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one...
Because mental contruct can have tangible physical effects on people. It is the same reason why anorexia is an actual disease. At it's base is an utterly stupid mental construction, but some people are so manipulable that they actually take it so seriously that they develop an undeniable and life-threatening condition from it.
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On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species.
You're right. You don't "become" a different gender. A Transgender person was born the gender with which they identify, it's their sex that's out of whack.
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On December 05 2012 03:23 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one... Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male.
Upon what basis do you make that assertion?
Were I raised differently, I would be a substantially different person, in both mind and body. Genetics (and the state of the mother's womb during gestation) have substantial effects on who a person becomes, but they are far from everything.
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On December 05 2012 03:23 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one... Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male.
I would really like someone to actually explain to me one day, how do they know this for sure. You have no idea how you think in the absence of society. You would probably never invent 99 % of the issues you are dealing with now in your life (whatever they are), because it would never cross your mind to even think about something so unpractical.
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On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one...
You don't get paid to play video games and thus don't fit the definition of progamer. If you identify as a male, however, then you are a male according to yourself and whoever else will acknowledge you as one, because the criteria for gender categorization is behavioural and socially constructed to being with.
On December 05 2012 03:17 helvete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Also, if thinking you're a cat doesn't harm you in any way, then there's nothing wrong with thinking you're a cat. Are you saying transgender persons are faking it? They can simply choose to feel (well.. with therapy, to get over the horrible social construct..) like another gender? Or did their parents raise them poorly? Of course they were born with a gender identity..
Just because something is socially constructed, doesn't mean it doesn't have any biological substrates. You can socially construct something based on your genetic predisposition. Gender is malleable and not fixed. There's ample evidence that people are socialized to fit gender roles.
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On December 05 2012 03:30 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:23 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one... Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male. Upon what basis do you make that assertion? Were I raised differently, I would be a substantially different person, in both mind and body. Genetics (and the state of the mother's womb during gestation) have substantial effects on who a person becomes, but they are far from everything.
Gender roles are socially constructed and I think you're confusing those with actual gender. They way you're raised determines what you think males and females are supposed to do or how they're supposed to behave. But you can behave any way you want and people can call you whatever they want, you'll still identify as a gender.
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On December 05 2012 03:30 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:23 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one... Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male. Upon what basis do you make that assertion? Were I raised differently, I would be a substantially different person, in both mind and body. Genetics (and the state of the mother's womb during gestation) have substantial effects on who a person becomes, but they are far from everything.
Well this whole transgender thing we're discussing seems to strengthen the argument that gender is far from a simple social construct.. The belief that it's a social construct and nothing else made doctors switch sexes of children with disfigured sex organs(just raise them as the sex we gave them!), with horrific consequences for those exposed to this insanity. Gender identity is NOT solely a social construct.
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On December 05 2012 03:28 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. You're right. You don't "become" a different gender. A Transgender person was born the gender with which they identify, it's their sex that's out of whack.
Allow me to correct myself, as I'm not a native english speaker (in my language gender=sex). The point of the analogy was to show that you cant become different species or different sex.
Why do you think identifying with different gender/sex (I can't understand the difference yet) than you were born is not a psychiatric disorder? By term psychiatric disorder I mean the problem is related to thinking/brain activity, not hormonal/sex organs.
Also, how's the gender and sex different? Is gender a mental construct(how one is associating oneself)?
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On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species.
No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison?
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On December 05 2012 03:37 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison?
Didn't you just prove my point and explain why? A human female constitutes a uterus and therefore an ability to bear children, therefore, the transfer you were talking about isn't quite full, despite having some/many resemblances to the "target" sex/gender.
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On December 05 2012 03:46 Gustis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:37 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison? Didn't you just prove my point and explain why? A human female constitutes a uterus and therefore an ability to bear children, therefore, the transfer you were talking about isn't quite full, despite having some/many resemblances to the "target" sex/gender.
So infertile people aren't considered female? What about an otherwise healthy woman who was just born without a uterus, is she also not female? What about women who have had hysterectomies, are they no longer female?
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On December 05 2012 03:46 Gustis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:37 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison? Didn't you just prove my point and explain why? A human female constitutes a uterus and therefore an ability to bear children, therefore, the transfer you were talking about isn't quite full, despite having some/many resemblances to the "target" sex/gender.
So someone who is infertile is no longer a human female to you? If the can't produce kids they are no longer human? or are they no longer male/female? I'm saying you can be female without being able to produce kids, you don't agree with that?
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On December 05 2012 03:46 Gustis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:37 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:26 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 03:16 JackDragon wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? It is more about the differences then anything else. A human and a cat is so different that you can not compare them. A human can talk and make him/herself understood. A human and a cat just don't come close, so it is a bad example. Well first of all, thanks for clarifying that there are more differences between cats and humans than males and females. I wasn't really trying to prove otherwise. Second, you can compare them, as both are mammals, have hearts, brains etc - both are living creatures. Third of all, what you said does not disprove what I'm trying to say. The point of the analogy was to show that you can't become either of those things: different gender AND different species. No the point is that you don't understand. A male can vary well become a female because the difference is not that big as you make it out to be. Frankly a male to female change is so good at the moment that the only thing we can't do at the moment is to make the person a uterus. We can make a vagina that has the same feeling as a real one. (for both persons that is). A to change a female to a male however is a bit lacking at the moment but give it some time and I hope it will be fixed. And if you think about it that is no different then a normal male or female who is infertile. Have I cleared it up know why that is a bad comparison? Didn't you just prove my point and explain why? A human female constitutes a uterus and therefore an ability to bear children, therefore, the transfer you were talking about isn't quite full, despite having some/many resemblances to the "target" sex/gender.
If I understand things correctly, the most important change is the hormonal one. The surgery is more of a social thing, which of course can be very important as well!
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On December 05 2012 03:35 helvete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:30 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:23 Klondikebar wrote:On December 05 2012 03:18 Severedevil wrote:On December 05 2012 03:10 reincremate wrote:On December 05 2012 03:04 Gustis wrote:On December 05 2012 02:56 helvete wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Gustis wrote:
So being a male human and thinking you are a male cat is a psychiatric disorder
and being a male human and thinking you are a female human is not?
Could anyone explain why?
I understand we shouldn't discriminate anyone. However, I think we are not discriminating people with various psychiatric disorders, for example, do we hate on people that have major depressive disorder? Are you honestly comparing the difference between a human and a cat, and a male and female human? Is that really what I'm reading here? Holy. Shit. Why not? It was meant to show that they both are wanting to be/thinking of being something you are not.Similarly, as cat is not human, male is not a female. Why does my analogy fall short? Is it because it's almost possible to transition from male to female(as opposed to from human to cat)? There's a distinction between gender and sex. Gender is a socially constructed identity, whereas sex is just the physical aspects of the body resulting from XY or XX chromosomes. Right. So why are we paying so much deference to a mental construct? If I identify as a professional gamer, TL is hardly obligated to treat me as one... Gender is not a socially constructed identity. It is a self identification. In the absence of society, I would still identify as male. Upon what basis do you make that assertion? Were I raised differently, I would be a substantially different person, in both mind and body. Genetics (and the state of the mother's womb during gestation) have substantial effects on who a person becomes, but they are far from everything. Well this whole transgender thing we're discussing seems to strengthen the argument that gender is far from a simple social construct.. The belief that it's a social construct and nothing else made doctors switch sexes of children with disfigured sex organs(just raise them as the sex we gave them!), with horrific consequences for those exposed to this insanity. Gender identity is NOT solely a social construct.
The definition of gender is a social construct (the categories with which we describe things that exist in reality). The physical basis for an individual's gender identity is not. David Reimer is the most prominent example of what you're referring to: the fact that individuals are genetically predisposed to have a gender identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer. When something doesn't fit a constructed category (e.g., a sexually male individual identifying as a female), a lot of people believe it to be unhealthy or somehow wrong because it doesn't fit with the categories they're familiar with (e.g., gender = genitals).
Also, gender defined as behaviour is malleable, just not to the extent that cases of forced gender reassignment like that of David Reimer are. There's plenty of psychological research on gender role socialization that demonstrates that people develop gender roles. But this point that gendered behaviour isn't fixed is only tangentially related from the one I made in the previous paragraph, which is that categories like gender are arbitrary and thus cannot be used to diagnose transgendered people as unhealthy.
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EPT
