EPTAPA: Transgender Is No Longer A Mental Disorder - Page 9
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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3Form
United Kingdom389 Posts
It seems a lot of people take the mind as being infallible, but I think it's important to understand the synergy between body and mind. Altering your body, through surgery and hormones, in order to maintain your mind is no different from altering your mind, through psychiatry/hormones/drugs, to suit your body. I probably have an utterly bigoted perspective - I did live for a year with a lad who is keen on this stuff, always ranting about trans and asexuals on facebook, not sure if he is actually now "trans" or whatever but he's certainly come out as a homosexual - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being effete as a man. Also, do "trans" tend to come from dysfunctional backgrounds? And my final bigoted point - what effect would taking doses of testosterone have on a male who felt he should be a female? | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 04 2012 23:19 aTnClouD wrote: It's not a matter of proving anything, it's all about what's socially acceptable or not. Pedophilia will never be socially acceptable hence it will forever be considered a disorder. In Ancient Greece (and many other cultures) pederasty was not exactly frowned upon and pederasty has become synonymous with pedophilia in the modern lexicon (even though it actually isn't in the DSM-IV sense). | ||
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fugs
United States135 Posts
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On December 04 2012 23:24 3Form wrote: I guess it all comes down to whether you believe in the inviability of the body or the inviability of the soul (mind), because I really don't understand why the onus always seems to be on altering the body in order to satisfy the mind. Why not alter the mind in order to satisfy the body? It seems a lot of people take the mind as being infallible, but I think it's important to understand the synergy between body and mind. Altering your body, through surgery and hormones, in order to maintain your mind is no different from altering your mind, through psychiatry/hormones/drugs, to suit your body. I probably have an utterly bigoted perspective - I did live for a year with a lad who is keen on this stuff, always ranting about trans and asexuals on facebook, not sure if he is actually now "trans" or whatever but he's certainly come out as a homosexual - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being effete as a man. Also, do "trans" tend to come from dysfunctional backgrounds? And my final bigoted point - what effect would taking doses of testosterone have on a male who felt he should be a female? Interesting points, especially the first 2 paragraphs. Altering the mind instead of the body seems to carry much less physical risks. I can often understand why somebody does cosmetic surgery, bigger breasts, smaller nose etc. Media/Hollywood et al. try to sell us a certain beauty ideal, people who are far away from it tend to feel pressure to alter their appearance and go to plastic surgeons. But I have to say that I cannot really understand people who go through a year long process, involving multiple surgeries, hormone therapies to completely change their gender. Boggles my mind to be honest. Our societies should try to teach the young ones to be more satisfied with their appearances again, instead of chasing unrealistic ideals. Don't know if it is a good choice to put the transgender thing off the "psychological disorder" list. In the end I simply don't care enough to put some deep thoughts into it, but my first reaction is "not a smart choice" because I think it encourages people, who are on the brink, to undergo surgery and drastically change their bodies, which I don't think is a good idea. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
The main point is that I do not feel as a man or woman. I just happen to have a penis, so I guess I am a man. But I really couldn't care less. I am attracted to women, so I am kinda glad that I do indeed have a penis, because it makes things much easier. But if I had a vagina instead, that would just make me a lesbian, I guess. I have absolutely no relation with my body and particularly no feeling towards my reproductive organs. Yes, they are fun to use, even more so when my wife is involved, but that is it. I don't know if I have explained it well, but the whole point is that I am completely unable to comprehend how transgender people feel. Now I am a very uninvested person: if I don't understand something, but it does not hurt me, I am like "whatever". But I can certainly imagine, how with those people who feel the urge to push their opinions about everything, this kind of inability to understand can cause a lot of stress. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On December 04 2012 23:24 3Form wrote: I guess it all comes down to whether you believe in the inviability of the body or the inviability of the soul (mind), because I really don't understand why the onus always seems to be on altering the body in order to satisfy the mind. Why not alter the mind in order to satisfy the body? It seems a lot of people take the mind as being infallible, but I think it's important to understand the synergy between body and mind. Altering your body, through surgery and hormones, in order to maintain your mind is no different from altering your mind, through psychiatry/hormones/drugs, to suit your body. I probably have an utterly bigoted perspective - I did live for a year with a lad who is keen on this stuff, always ranting about trans and asexuals on facebook, not sure if he is actually now "trans" or whatever but he's certainly come out as a homosexual - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with being effete as a man. Also, do "trans" tend to come from dysfunctional backgrounds? And my final bigoted point - what effect would taking doses of testosterone have on a male who felt he should be a female? I normally stay out of topics like this, but I will say a few things that is on my mind from personal experience. Maybe it will help you look at it differently, maybe not. I should first address that transsexual people don't have to come from dysfunctional backgrounds, and I don't think they are a higher percentage of transsexuals either. I don't really see a good reason as to why they should either, but maybe you could give a example. The second thing is that "changing the mind" is pretty much is what happens all out through the transsexuals childhood. It is seldom that someone who was born male get raised as a female. Very often, close to always, you are raised depending on your sex when you are born, and that will be the view that is more or less "forced" on you. If you still doubt your gender after 10+ years, even throughout the years when you are as most susceptible for suggestions, then do you really think that a few times to a therapist would help? Maybe (very much maybe) with years and years of therapy and lots of medication it could help and you would then be "cured", but even then you might need to continue medication. I would think that a surgery and hormones would be a much better alternative, even though I don't know if you have to eat hormones for the rest of your life. If that is the case the different approaches would be similar in that regard. But I think hormones would be preferred. With all that said, you must also remember that it is not enough that you just one day go out and say "no I don't want to be female, I want to be a male" and BAM you get approved to change gender (with operations and everything). You have to go through a lot of medical examination, checkups, interviews and so on. No one, hopefully, will or can change gender on a whim, there is much much more to it that what people realize. One more thing. I think it is impossible to put your self in the position of a transsexual. I can not for my life imagine the feeling of being born as a female with a mind like a male, a female body with my mind. Maybe someone can, but I can't. And I would like everyone to stop make the "Think about if you where in that situation", "What if you where suddenly transformed to male/female" because frankly, you can't. I am not going to say I know how transsexual feels, because I don't. I do know that they are depressed and that it feels wrong for them. But that is only because I have been told so by actual transsexuals. But with all that said. I think the last thing to ask is, does it hurt you? Is other people being transsexual a problem for you? And I don't mean that in the "I find it to be disgusting" kind of way. The answer to that is probably no. Unless you have a friend/family who is transsexual where it admittedly can hurt. I am not going to lecture anyone on such morals. This is already such a big fucking wall of text anyway.... | ||
micronesia
United States24799 Posts
On December 04 2012 23:21 Barrin wrote: Pedophilia is sexual exploitation of another living human and will always be spat upon in a moral society. This is inaccurate. Pedophilia is not exploitation of another living human being since it is just a sexual inclination. What the person actually does to children determines whether or not exploitation occurs. My understanding is that people with pedophilia have no choice in the matter. Child rapists/molesters/etc do. | ||
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nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:13 micronesia wrote: This is inaccurate. Pedophilia is not exploitation of another living human being since it is just a sexual inclination. What the person actually does to children determines whether or not exploitation occurs. My understanding is that people with pedophilia have no choice in the matter. Child rapists/molesters/etc do. DSM-IV's definition of pedophilia as a mental disorder requires that someone act upon it or that their sexual urges or fantasies cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty. http://behavenet.com/pedophilia It's not just having the sexual inclination towards prepubescent children. In the court of public opinion and the "popular" definition? "Pedophilia" is a nebulous concept that usually includes ephebophilia too and tends to be applied to general sexual attraction, but not in the psychological sense. | ||
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micronesia
United States24799 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:22 TheTenthDoc wrote: DSM-IV's definition of pedophilia as a mental disorder requires that someone act upon it or that their sexual urges or fantasies cause them distress or interpersonal difficulty. http://behavenet.com/pedophilia It's not just having the sexual inclination towards prepubescent children. In the court of public opinion and the "popular" definition? "Pedophilia" is a nebulous concept that usually includes ephebophilia too and tends to be applied to general sexual attraction, but not in the psychological sense. Sources vary slightly on exactly what is needed to qualify. The point I want to make is that you don't have to be raping children to be a pedophile, the same way you don't have to be a pedophile to rape children. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
Ultimately I feel it's not a group of people who want to call attention to the issues regarding societal gender roles, it's just people who want to hop the fence to the other side. Which is fine, whatever, but then they have this really obnoxious way of accusing everyone who thinks otherwise a bigot. Even the idea of "gender identity" is backwards to me considering all the work that goes into feminism and equality. If you like things that society says is for girls, you were supposed to be a girl? Wouldn't it be much simpler to ask is "why is it that only girls can like this in our society, isn't that dumb?" and then challenging by liking it anyway regardless of what gender you were born as. It just seems like such a lazy, convenient attitude to peg your personality to gender. I don't think I am who I am because I am a man. I think I am who I am simply because this is the mind and personality I have. My penis rarely enters the equation (despite its ginormous size. It's huge) If more and more people feel some incongruity with their gender and their mind, isn't that just evidence that the roles themselves are stupid? Isn't it ultimately a much more effective strategy to stop enforcing them, rather than tell everyone they have gender dysphoria and need surgery to fix it? Doesn't that in a way encourage the separation of genders to justify the act of altering the body to fit the mind? I can't wrap my head around it, it just seems so backwards to me. | ||
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:19 nebula. wrote: i'm sorry but did they seriously change this now? in 2012? lol Why are you surprised? As a swede you must know how influential feminism is. According to feminists, we're not born as men and women; it's all in the upbringing right? So people who are transgender are mentally unstable.. chromosomes and DNA be damned! On December 05 2012 00:26 floor exercise wrote: In general I find the whole concept, or at least how it is portrayed by trans people, to be almost regressive in respects gender equality. They draw serious lines in the sand of how a woman and a man act, think, dress, even their physical appearance, to justify changing themselves. Ultimately I feel it's not a group of people who want to call attention to the issues regarding societal gender roles, it's just people who want to hop the fence to the other side. Which is fine, whatever, but then they have this really obnoxious way of accusing everyone who thinks otherwise a bigot. Even the idea of "gender identity" is backwards to me considering all the work that goes into feminism and equality. If you like things that society says is for girls, you were supposed to be a girl? Wouldn't it be much simpler to ask is "why is it that only girls can like this in our society, isn't that dumb?" and then challenging by liking it anyway regardless of what gender you were born as. It just seems like such a lazy, convenient attitude to peg your personality to gender. I don't think I am who I am because I am a man. I think I am who I am simply because this is the mind and personality I have. My penis rarely enters the equation (despite its ginormous size. It's huge) If more and more people feel some incongruity with their gender and their mind, isn't that just evidence that the roles themselves are stupid? Isn't it ultimately a much more effective strategy to stop enforcing them, rather than tell everyone they have gender dysphoria and need surgery to fix it? Doesn't that in a way encourage the separation of genders to justify the act of altering the body to fit the mind? I can't wrap my head around it, it just seems so backwards to me. Or can it be.. can it be that this whole "we are what we say we are!" mentality is bullshit? That it's only one facet in a multifaceted reality? I'd do some research into the horrible consequences this attitude can have in regards to haphazardly choosing a gender for children who are born with disfigured sexual organs if I were you and I wanted to gain a healthy perspective. We don't get to choose the way we are. We can affect it more than what was thought possible a hundred years ago, sure, but we don't get to choose. | ||
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JackDragon
525 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:19 nebula. wrote: i'm sorry but did they seriously change this now? in 2012? lol I don't get it? Why is this odd? Intersexuality haven't exactly been a hot topic before and changes like this normally comes slow. For the record Sweden still consider it a mental disorder to my knowledge. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:26 micronesia wrote: Sources vary slightly on exactly what is needed to qualify. The point I want to make is that you don't have to be raping children to be a pedophile, the same way you don't have to be a pedophile to rape children. And to add to that, the courts don't convict people on the basis that they find children sexually attractive as in their sexual orientation. It's the actual act, as in if you actually had sexually intercourse or in some shape or form have pictures which could be perceived as sexual. The question regarding pedophilia as a definition however would be if its just merely is a summary of the sexual orientation, or that it also includes an actual act as well. That you are not really a pedophile unless you, with the sexual orientation cast aside, also have been in some sort of sexual activity as well. | ||
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fugs
United States135 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:26 helvete wrote: Why are you surprised? As a swede you must know how influential feminism is. According to feminists, we're not born as men and women; it's all in the upbringing right? So people who are transgender are mentally unstable.. chromosomes and DNA be damned! Or can it be.. can it be that this whole "we are what we say we are!" mentality is bullshit? That it's only one facet in a multifaceted reality? I'd do some research into the horrible consequences this attitude can have in regards to haphazardly choosing a gender for children who are born with disfigured sexual organs if I were you and I wanted to gain a healthy perspective. We don't get to choose the way we are. We can affect it more than what was thought possible a hundred years ago, sure, but we don't get to choose. "we" This isn't about you, unless you're transsexual then this doesn't have anything to do with you. Transsexual people go through their lives in fear, doubt, and suffering because of their body. You were fortunate enough not to have a problem with your sex, but not everyone was that fortunate. Why does someone else's body matter so much to you and people like you (with your attitude towards the subject). You're saying that you can't wrap your head around it, but that's not the point. You can't put your hands over your eyes and all of the sudden know what a blind person goes through. Yet you understand they have their own suffering. You don't need to understand the disorder to show sympathy. We aren't talking about changing YOUR body. We're talking about giving people better lives. I'm transsexual, and if there was some pill I could take that would make me comfortable in my body I'd take it; but there isn't, so surgery and hormones is what I've got. And I'm incredibly relieved that those opportunities are there, because this isn't something you can just get over. For me, and many other people, it's transition or suicide. Speaking of which, the suicide rate for transsexual people is hovering just under 50% so think about that before you just brush off what we're going through. | ||
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:58 fugs wrote: "we" This isn't about you, unless you're transsexual then this doesn't have anything to do with you. Transsexual people go through their lives in fear, doubt, and suffering because of their body. You were fortunate enough not to have a problem with your sex, but not everyone was that fortunate. Why does someone else's body matter so much to you and people like you (with your attitude towards the subject). You're saying that you can't wrap your head around it, but that's not the point. You can't put your hands over your eyes and all of the sudden know what a blind person goes through. Yet you understand they have their own suffering. You don't need to understand the disorder to show sympathy. We aren't talking about changing YOUR body. We're talking about giving people better lives. I'm transsexual, and if there was some pill I could take that would make me comfortable in my body I'd take it; but there isn't, so surgery and hormones is what I've got. And I'm incredibly relieved that those opportunities are there, because this isn't something you can just get over. For me, and many other people, it's transition or suicide. Speaking of which, the suicide rate for transsexual people is hovering just under 50% so think about that before you just brush off what we're going through. Which post are you responding to? Certainly not mine, so please don't quote it. I agree with everything you say... | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 05 2012 00:56 Integra wrote: And to add to that, the courts don't convict people on the basis that they find children sexually attractive as in their sexual orientation. It's the actual act, as in if you actually had sexually intercourse or in some shape or form have pictures which could be perceived as sexual. The question regarding pedophilia as a definition however would be if its just merely is a summary of the sexual orientation, or that it also includes an actual act as well. That you are not really a pedophile unless you, with the sexual orientation cast aside, also have been in some sort of sexual activity as well. I was mostly pointing out that you can only be diagnosed with the mental disorder "pedophilia" if you act on those urges or it screws up your life. In that sense Fdez's point-removing pedophilia from the DSM-IV as a disorder-would only happen if they changed their definition or changed the name of what they currently call "pedophilia." I mean, you should have something in the DSM-IV to reflect the problem of acting on sexual attraction to prepubescents or being so sexually attracted to prepubescents that it screws up your life; I don't think anyone would disagree that's a mental disorder. You'll never nail down the common-law definition of the word because of the emotionally-charged nature of the topic. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On December 05 2012 01:04 TheTenthDoc wrote: I was mostly pointing out that you can only be diagnosed with the mental disorder "pedophilia" if you act on those urges or it screws up your life. In that sense Fdez's point-removing pedophilia from the DSM-IV as a disorder-would only happen if they changed their definition or changed the name of what they currently call "pedophilia." I mean, you should have something in the DSM-IV to reflect the problem of acting on sexual attraction to prepubescents or being so sexually attracted to prepubescents that it screws up your life; I don't think anyone would disagree that's a mental disorder. You'll never nail down the common-law definition of the word because of the emotionally-charged nature of the topic. I think the problem is that people are talking about this in too broad terms, let's narrow it down to Disorder<Sexual disorders<Hypersexuality. Because that is what it really is if you can't control your sexual urges, which is a case of Hypersexuality, only it's aimed at children 13 or under. | ||
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tronix
United States95 Posts
increased scrutiny in the courtroom most likely showed how things might get wacky when the prosecution or defense has the term "mental disorder" to fall back on. also, this was needed in order to start the process of legislation regarding the rights of transgenders. although, it might hurt some transgenders in the shorterm who relied on the DSM definition of Gender Identity Disorder as a legal defense against discrimination. ie) easier to win a case when you are arguing discrimination against a mentally ill person vs. socially awkward lifestyle choice. personally im on the fence about this one. im all for gay rights, but transgender is a whole different bag of peanuts; with questions about how they should be treated before and after medical procedures in terms of participation in activities prescribed to either sex. ie) public bathrooms, sports, army, etc If it happened to be the case that medical technology allowed for a complete gender transfer, without noticeable differences; then i might think differently. However, that is not the case. | ||
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