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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
On December 04 2012 18:44 BrTarolg wrote:
I think it is quite the opposite actually
People who goes through trans therapy, either through hormones or a combination with surgery etc. often feel extremely liberated and happy for the first time in their life, and their sexual desire and ability to experience orgasms is usually increased through their transition, not the other way around.
first of all, I agree.. I never wanted sex until after I was happy with my body through transition, even pre-surgery.
second of all, I'm not talking about transition's effects on the desire to orgasm.. I'm talking about surgery's effect on the mechanical ability to orgasm, it's entirely possible to never orgasm again if the surgery doesn't go well, but it's a risk you take, some would say it's not even a risk to them, I know someone who masturbated for the first time at 21, after their sex change.
I'm not even entirely sure what you're disagreeing with me on here
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It's not really hard to understand, people can be born with three arms, with no eyes, with congenital analgesia, etc. so why couldn't they be born with a wrong body?
But doesn't that mean that it's not a mental disorder but a body disorder? As in a physical handicap?
I'm kinda uneducated on this matter, but how advanced is gender/sex (sorry! I don't know which one it is) reassignment surgery?
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Obviously a step in the right direction, good job.
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Scientifically, it either is or isn't a disorder. It is what it is. So if they are declassifying it based on some new study that says its not a disorder, then that's fine. But declassifying it in order to be nicer to transgendered people... I'm not really on board with that. There are better ways to prevent poor treatment of transgendered people than messing with our official definitions/terms.
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On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote:
It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
You've got to see that that is not a mentally healthy thing.
So, you can get the surgery for free still?
I'm not sure what i think about this really. If it was a disorder, then it's fair to 'cure' it for free. But if it's not even a disorder and it's just something some people want, then.. well why get that for free?
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On December 04 2012 16:20 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:59 Troxle wrote:On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable I'll give it from my side. I don't exactly have issues with how I look other than I look male. I know I am an attractive/cute male. I get complimented about it all the time. But that's not me. I identify as a female, and feel that my body should have been female to match as well. The options to correct it are rather simple honestly. I'll take some anti-androgens to stop the testosterone from further masculinizin' me and I'll take estradial to put estrogen in my system. This will give me softer skin, less muscle mass, and breasts so I will appear outwardly, as a cisfemale (someone who was born female and does not identify under the trans umbrella). As far as surgery goes, I will not opt for FFS (facial feminization surgery) because I don't have cosmetic issues with myself, sure my chin could probably use it and so could my forehead, but I'll look female without it and I'm not vain enough to care. As far as SRS/GRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery/Genital Reassignment Surgery) goes, I do plan to get this. I guess you could call it a cosmetic reason, because I don't want to be walkin' around in tight women's clothes with a bulge in my pants that makes onlookers skeptical. It also feels very foreign to me when my male bits are bein' active (whether masturbatin' or durin' sexual penetration). Now I plan to pay for that on my own, but that's my choice. For some people, they really can't stand their male parts and have gone to drastic lengths (I've had a few episodes where I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events). On December 04 2012 15:57 dUTtrOACh wrote:On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term. Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket. Depends on the company, the country and the surgeon. And that's the price for male to female. If I remember correctly, female to male surgery starts around $70k and only jumps up? Thanks for sharing, that takes a lot of courage (I know it's anonymous internet whatever, but still). Posts like this are the slow chisel that chips away at the ugly monolith of bigotry... you're humanizing the issue in a way that the people on the fence can't ignore. <3
I hope you're not misunderstanding my questions as some form of "shopping around". I just hate seeing false impressions of change or understanding being spewed forth while the medical profession milks everything they can out of people in a very desperate situation, possibly suffering from a depression that could hurt their ability to afford the surgery they desire (the way depression affects school & work, as well as its cascading effects that result from the economic hardship). There's not much I hate more than that type of atrocious shit. As a Canadian, I strongly believe in free healthcare, but tolerate the existence of progressive medicare in countries where free healthcare isn't available.
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I'm not so sure what to think about this. I'm all for the fair treatment of transgender, and for giving them the chance to alter their body to be more in line with their real gender. But I think classifying it as a mental disorder is not inherently unfair. Unlike homosexuals, transgender people invariably seem to experience mental anguish by having a sex that does not match their gender. It always is a problem, and it often requires medical intervention, then the rationale for not classifying it as a disorder, seems rather thin. Though I must admit I'm not completely informed of the criteria that must be met for something to be a mental disorder.
Then again, if the label mental disorder is being used to discriminate against the transgender, it is probably a good social policy, but abusing what is essentially a scientific classification for social goals seems questionable to me. Though I must admit this probably does more good than harm.
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On December 04 2012 19:58 Crushinator wrote:
I'm not so sure what to think about this. I'm all for the fair treatment of transgender, and for giving them the chance to alter their body to be more in line with their real gender. But I think classifying it as a mental disorder is not inherently unfair. Unlike homosexuals, transgender people invariably seem to experience mental anguish by having a sex that does not match their gender. It always is a problem, and it often requires medical intervention, then the rationale for not classifying it as a disorder, seems rather thin. Though I must admit I'm not completely informed of the criteria that must be met for something to be a mental disorder.
It's not a mental disorder since the problem isn't in the brain, it's in the body. That transgender people may experience mental anguish doesn't change that. If you have a broken leg that's causing you a lot of pain, you may experience mental anguish too. Doesn't make a broken leg a mental disorder.
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On December 04 2012 20:00 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:58 Crushinator wrote:
I'm not so sure what to think about this. I'm all for the fair treatment of transgender, and for giving them the chance to alter their body to be more in line with their real gender. But I think classifying it as a mental disorder is not inherently unfair. Unlike homosexuals, transgender people invariably seem to experience mental anguish by having a sex that does not match their gender. It always is a problem, and it often requires medical intervention, then the rationale for not classifying it as a disorder, seems rather thin. Though I must admit I'm not completely informed of the criteria that must be met for something to be a mental disorder.
It's not a mental disorder since the problem isn't in the brain, it's in the body. That transgender people may experience mental anguish doesn't change that. If you have a broken leg that's causing you a lot of pain, you may experience mental anguish too. Doesn't make a broken leg a mental disorder.
Well, the problem is a mismatch between the brain and the body, isn't it? I think it is not intellectually correct to say that the problem is solely physical.
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Ok first of all this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way it's actually a question maybe a stupid one too.
How about the evolutionary standpoint where a specie needs to reproduce itself to survive. When a person is gay or transgender his/her "mental disorder" stops itself from reproducing. Therefore it might be seen as a mental disorder because it goes against the instinct of any specie to reproduce itself.
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On December 04 2012 20:08 Lanfire wrote:
Ok first of all this is not meant to be disrespectful or insulting in any way it's actually a question maybe a stupid one too.
How about the evolutionary standpoint where a specie needs to reproduce itself to survive. When a person is gay or transgender his/her "mental disorder" stops itself from reproducing.
We don't define ourselves by our ability or desire to reproduce though. Not having an ability or desire to reproduce, can't be a sufficient or necessary condition for having a mental disorder.
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From just browsing over the discussion I have to say I'm disgusted.
By how little red is in this thread so far 
More bans for the ban god!
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edit: should have posted in ban thread
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^--- I'm pretty sure the "Angry straw liberals"-thing was considered martyring.
Genuine question since I didn't find it over the last couple of pages: In the case that wanting to have another gender is not considered a disorder what does that mean for insurances? Do they currently play "treatment" like medication or behavioral therapy? After the change, would they be required to pay for surgery or, since it's not a disorder anymore, required to pay for nothing at all?
If it's not categorized as some kind of disorder how can it achieve a different status as purely "cosmetic" operations? As far as I'm aware for e.g. breast enlargements/reductions if people want to get it payed by their insurance companies they have to get through rather lengthy and not really coherent tests to "prove" that they have some kind of psychological problem with the current state that can be easier fixed with surgery than with therapy.
Edit: QQ SHOULD PROBABLY READ FIRST THREE PAGES INSTEAD OF LAST THREE. Already been answered. >_>
On December 04 2012 12:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 12:30 Calm wrote:
Sorry, I'm an idiot. This is a good thing. Yeah this was a concern I had as well. It seems like there's still a classification that would allow for medical coverage to help with transitions for those who want it, though we'll need to see if in practice that turns out to be the case. I suspect though this was explicitly written to allow medical coverage! :D
In general both the DSM and ICD catalogues are so slow and backwards when it comes to anything that's not mainstream. Hell, BDSM is still a diagnosis in the ICD and an official desease in most european countries. =(
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"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
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It's always kind of funny to see people flip out MASSIVELLY about any sex and gender related issue. Why do you think homosexuals/transgender people are the way they are? Do you think one day they woke up and decided to change their lives, "mutilate their bodies" like some people in this thread claim, be hated, discriminated and ostracised just for kicks and giggles?
People often carry their gender "badge" as some sort of pride "Oh look, I'm a man, look at these faggots" without considering the idea that they could have easily been in that person's shoes because, you know, no one actually chooses their sexuality or gender. It's just an interesting phenomenon in our species in general, basically EVERY SINGLE discrimination issue throughout our history has been about something a person cannot choose like the color of their skin, gender, sexual orientation or nationality.
However, sex and gender related issues take a lot longer to be accepted because at a fundamental biological level we notice and care about sex a lot more than most other things. So anything "unnatural" about it automatically makes us feel this repulsion. It makes sense except that we as human beings have this brain which can make rational logical decisions instead of following our instinctual tendencies.
As an example, this is why we don't support bullying even though technically it's a perfectly normal mechanism in nature to "filter out the weak".
The line between which gender you're born with is extremely thin, your dad's sperm was flipping a coin, so to speak (god damn that sounds weird, I apologize). In some people, something "messed up" and now there's a mismatch between their mind and their body. Unless you have evidence that it's possible to "fix them" so they would be "normal" again, you have no fucking right to discriminate them upon that criteria.
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On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
You're forgetting about mental harm. While changing may bring "harm" in one sense, it can be a "cure" for the depression one has when they aren't the sex they feel they should be. They aren't who they are. Otherwise, why would they feel so?
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On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
In this case, nothing has been cured. You still think you are female, and still have a male body and male DNA. But now you are physically unhealthy and your male body can't function properly. You will also never become a female, as we don't posess such advanced technology. Forever you are now stuck in a physically mutilated male body. The "treatment" has only caused irreparable damage, not cured anything.
How about an alternative scenario:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You accept yourself for who you are (someone who has a male body).
In this case no physical damage has been caused. You are still completely healthy and have all your working parts. No harm is caused by chasing an unattainable goal.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
Well, what do you tell people who suffer from depression? just be happy?
And it is absolutely beyond me how you can put the abstract concept of what gender and sex should be above the well being of another person. It's not like YOU lose anything if they actually have a chance to survive past age 30. I think you sound a lot like someone talking about cattle.
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I'm a girl who is dating a trans girl, which doesn't make me an expert but I know bullshit when I see it...
On December 04 2012 20:53 stevelouise wrote:
"Transgender" people have fully functional and healthy bodies. There's no problem with their body.
Consider:
1. You have a fully functional, healthy male body, with perfectly good DNA.
2. You think you are a female.
3. You mutilate your male body, becoming a mutilated physically damaged person with a non-functional body, but still Male.
1. A fully functional male body that the female brain isn't designed to handle.
2. You know who else thinks they are female? Females. Coincidence? I think not.
3. On a cellular level men and women are exactly the same, it's just a matter of gene expression induced by hormones. Change the hormones to E and the cells behave exactly as you would expect the cells to behave in a cisgendered female, physically the body changes as a result. Arguably the body becomes much more female than male. As for surgery, female reproductive organs are superior to male, it's an upgrade, not mutilation.
I think the same approach can be taken in a lot of cases. If a child feels like a basketball player but was born very short, rather than surgery to make them taller we should just teach people to accept themselves for who they are.
Many have tried the strategy that you suggest and it usually ends in suicide, which really is a good option if you're trans, because the alternative is living in a nightmare from which you can never awake from (save with the power of estrogen).
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So how exactly is something classified a mental disorder and do transgendered people fit that definition or not? If this is just a political thing then it is disappointing but predictable. If there is some standard and transgendered people do not fit that standard then ok.
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EPT
