EPTAPA: Transgender Is No Longer A Mental Disorder - Page 5
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On December 04 2012 13:50 DigiGnar wrote: I'm trying to say that wanting your arms off and wanting to have your dick inverted are both treatment options for massive depression. No they are not, one is actually happening, second one is you being obtuse. None got treated out of depression by cutting arms off. It is like saying that no matter what pills you eat they will cure you, well if you eat poison pills (cutting your arms off) , they won't , if you actually eat the prescribed ones (reassignment surgery) you will get better. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On December 04 2012 15:31 dUTtrOACh wrote: What does a gender reassignment cost a person these days, on average? Since it's no longer a "disorder", how does that affect the price or availability? Is this a step forward, or what? EDIT: I'm not too sure how well-versed the public at large is about the APA's classifications on anything. Until these things touch their lives, you'd think they would continue to live in blissful ignorance and form their own opinions about how they feel about transgender. In a lot of countries it is covered by national healthcare. | ||
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Kaorix
Canada13 Posts
http://juliaserano.blogspot.ca/2012/12/trans-people-still-disordered-according.html "Transvestic Disorder can be applied to any person who is sexually active while wearing clothing incongruent with their birth-assigned sex" | ||
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GnarlyArbitrage
575 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:10 mcc wrote: No they are not, one is actually happening, second one is you being obtuse. None got treated out of depression by cutting arms off. It is like saying that no matter what pills you eat they will cure you, well if you eat poison pills (cutting your arms off) , they won't , if you actually eat the prescribed ones (reassignment surgery) you will get better. Are you saying there isn't a thing such as "Body Integrity Identity Disorder?" | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On December 04 2012 15:59 Troxle wrote: I'll give it from my side. I don't exactly have issues with how I look other than I look male. I know I am an attractive/cute male. I get complimented about it all the time. But that's not me. I identify as a female, and feel that my body should have been female to match as well. The options to correct it are rather simple honestly. I'll take some anti-androgens to stop the testosterone from further masculinizin' me and I'll take estradial to put estrogen in my system. This will give me softer skin, less muscle mass, and breasts so I will appear outwardly, as a cisfemale (someone who was born female and does not identify under the trans umbrella). As far as surgery goes, I will not opt for FFS (facial feminization surgery) because I don't have cosmetic issues with myself, sure my chin could probably use it and so could my forehead, but I'll look female without it and I'm not vain enough to care. As far as SRS/GRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery/Genital Reassignment Surgery) goes, I do plan to get this. I guess you could call it a cosmetic reason, because I don't want to be walkin' around in tight women's clothes with a bulge in my pants that makes onlookers skeptical. It also feels very foreign to me when my male bits are bein' active (whether masturbatin' or durin' sexual penetration). Now I plan to pay for that on my own, but that's my choice. For some people, they really can't stand their male parts and have gone to drastic lengths (I've had a few episodes where I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events). Depends on the company, the country and the surgeon. And that's the price for male to female. If I remember correctly, female to male surgery starts around $70k and only jumps up? Thanks for sharing, that takes a lot of courage (I know it's anonymous internet whatever, but still). Posts like this are the slow chisel that chips away at the ugly monolith of bigotry... you're humanizing the issue in a way that the people on the fence can't ignore. <3 | ||
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cresse
United States59 Posts
One of the biggest problems surrounding transgenderism and transsexuality (they are slightly different things, often lumped together) is that they are not easily understood by the general populace, and there's not a whole lot of incentive to learn about them because... well, they're different. Especially on the internet, where that sort of behavior is streamlined. According to studies, people spend something like two whole seconds on a webpage or thread or whatever that they're not interested in. Why would you read about something that you don't understand when you can watch streams or look at pictures of puppies instead? The APA removing transgenderism from the DSM is a step in a wonderful direction. Hopefully this raises awareness and gets people eager to read literature about it, or understand it in general. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:08 tokicheese wrote: I think it's pretty clearly a mental "issue". It's not necessarily a negative thing but it is a product of your mind. I don't know enough about the DSM to say whether or not it should be included but imo it should. Someone who is distressed by something occurring in their mind that they cannot help imo is suffering from a mental disorder. As has been said other times in this thread, what's happening in the mind of a transgendered individual isn't what's distressing them. They identify with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth, and they are generally pretty comfortable with that (at least after they have had some time to get use to it). What they aren't comfortable with is their body. The fact that it is incongruent with their identified gender makes it hard for the to function in society as a person of that gender. It may also disgust them or generally make them depressed (very few women think they look attractive with a penis and vice versa). So the issue is that something has gone wrong in their mind, its that their body and presentation in society is making their life as their identified gender difficult. | ||
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sephiria
106 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:08 tokicheese wrote: I think it's pretty clearly a mental "issue". It's not necessarily a negative thing but it is a product of your mind. I don't know enough about the DSM to say whether or not it should be included but imo it should. Someone who is distressed by something occurring in their mind that they cannot help imo is suffering from a mental disorder. But is that a practical approach? Research has afaik proven that there are indeed m/f brains, so the biological sex of the brain might indeed differ from the rest of the body. I would rate brain alignment above DNA. You also have to consider the state of a TS-person. It often takes many years to come to terms with one's own 'condition'. Guilt can be a huge factor (how can I be doing sth. like this to my friends/family/partner?). GID usually leads to outright war within the soul as long as it is not treated properly, and therapy without hormones just does not help. It is very hard to accept yourself under those circumstances, it can take years and comes in wake of depression and heavy physical reactions (insomnia, inability to eat properly, even limitation of one's ability to speak). If the point is reached where it starts to get better again it is very cruel to 'attack' the mind of the patient I think. After fighting so many battles and suffering so much, a sense of self (-acceptance) and hope is finally acquired, just to be put to the test immediately by society. Being classified as mentally ill can be hard, especially if you are not. I mean imagine you have finally uncovered your true self fully ( and being m or f is probably the most central point of 'self' ) and then, someone (dressed as a doctor) comes along: 'well technically you dont exist because everything you perceive as self is essentially just a hallucination caused by mental disorder. We are unable to eradicate you from the brain you are currently occupying, so we try to put up with you as best as we can.' 'Well, thanks, can I have your scalpel for a second please?' | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:27 packrat386 wrote: As has been said other times in this thread, what's happening in the mind of a transgendered individual isn't what's distressing them. They identify with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth, and they are generally pretty comfortable with that (at least after they have had some time to get use to it). What they aren't comfortable with is their body. The fact that it is incongruent with their identified gender makes it hard for the to function in society as a person of that gender. It may also disgust them or generally make them depressed (very few women think they look attractive with a penis and vice versa). So the issue is that something has gone wrong in their mind, its that their body and presentation in society is making their life as their identified gender difficult. You are simplifying the issue by trying to blame society alone here. If someone feels uncomfortable with having a penis, that is not entirely an interpersonal conflict. Those conflicts do exist, but there are still internal psychological conflicts as well which exist independently. Research has afaik proven that there are indeed m/f brains I don't think there is any scientific test which can deduce a persons gender. There may be indications, but it is still just a slight correlation. | ||
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sephiria
106 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: I don't think there is any scientific test which can deduce a persons gender. There may be indications, but it is still just a slight correlation. yes, but I was talking about sex at that point, not gender. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
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sephiria
106 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote: can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. there is a difference between having a mental disorder and essentially being one (being told that I mean). Most people in therapy I know regard it as part of themselves, but it does not define them on an absolute level. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote: can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. | ||
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TheLastTemplar
Iceland593 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote: I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? I mean, if there is absolutely nothing wrong with their brain, then obviously they don't have a disorder; but as far as I can tell, most of the reasoning behind the decision of the APA was based on social/political reasons. I don't know though, maybe someone else has more information on that kind of thing? | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:21 cresse wrote: This is a good thing. One of the biggest problems surrounding transgenderism and transsexuality (they are slightly different things, often lumped together) is that they are not easily understood by the general populace, and there's not a whole lot of incentive to learn about them because... well, they're different. Especially on the internet, where that sort of behavior is streamlined. According to studies, people spend something like two whole seconds on a webpage or thread or whatever that they're not interested in. Why would you read about something that you don't understand when you can watch streams or look at pictures of puppies instead? The APA removing transgenderism from the DSM is a step in a wonderful direction. Hopefully this raises awareness and gets people eager to read literature about it, or understand it in general. Generally you could cut down the mental disorder category to very few categories. Permanent brain anomaly and transient brain anomaly and other conditions. A lot of things in DSM is transient, which is problematic, because there is no real way of getting a diagnose revoked from your mental cv. The "disorder" related to transgender is related to depression/grief in it being cureable to some degree. The cured person, however, is still pinned to the diagnosis by potential employers and the lack of experience gained in the period of illness is killing their chances of acquiring a job. Essentially a diagnosis is a lifelong burden, no matter how cured you get and that is the most pressing problem! Now we can discuss what exactly should be in DSM. Mostly I believe it is used as a reference for conditions with special needs. That is a far too general principle and it can be discussed to death what constitutes such. No doubt it depends on society. For now there is a need for society to change towards a less judgemental way of looking at people with a diagnoses. Afterwards there is a need to redefine what kinds of disorders are "need to know". In the end there is a need for DSM to adapt to a much more fluid reality. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
Feminism tries to make male and female into the same thing, while the concept of transgender goes the other way, claiming that if you don't relate to your gender, you should change. Neither of these concepts would exist if we just saw the genders for what they actually were, and got rid of the stereotypes. I don't see any reason why a man couldn't wear a dress, put on a lot of makeup, and overall act in a stereotypical female way, without having to question his gender. Why let stereotypes confuse you? If someone feels like they don't belong to their gender, then maybe they should try redefining their ideas about what gender really is, rather than changing themselves. I just think it's sad, because you can't question your gender without questioning your existence. Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not against transgenders. I'm not gonna decide what is allowed to do with your own body, but when someone says that a certain part of them feels like and qualifies them as the other gender, it doesn't make sense, and it shows a lack of understanding in genetics. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote: do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? I mean, if there is absolutely nothing wrong with their brain, then obviously they don't have a disorder; but as far as I can tell, most of the reasoning behind the decision of the APA was based on social/political reasons. I don't know though, maybe someone else has more information on that kind of thing? I have nothing more than an armchair knowledge of psychology/neurology, so I won't pretend I'm an expert, but afaik there's fairly conclusive evidence that trans people's brains are wired differently than "normal" people's. I certainly don't think that their motivation was social/political, though; the common consensus on trans rights is very far from being in trans people's favor. I can certainly tell you from a fairly wide breadth of anecdotal experience that trans people are generally much happier after transitioning, but I won't claim that as fact. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On December 04 2012 17:03 ninini wrote: When I hear talk of not feeling like your gender, or that the brain is of the wrong gender, you lose me. Biologically, gender is pretty straightforward. Except for mutations, you are either male or female, no exceptions, and it's impossible to confuse the two. Feminism tries to make male and female into the same thing, while the concept of transgender goes the other way, claiming that if you don't relate to your gender, you should change. Neither of these concepts would exist if we just saw the genders for what they actually were, and got rid of the stereotypes. I don't see any reason why a man couldn't wear a dress, put on a lot of makeup, and overall act in a stereotypical female way, without having to question his gender. Why let stereotypes confuse you? If someone feels like they don't belong to their gender, then maybe they should try redefining their ideas about what gender really is, rather than changing themselves. I just think it's sad, because you can't question your gender without questioning your existence. Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not against transgenders. I'm not gonna decide what is allowed to do with your own body, but when someone says that a certain part of them feels like and qualifies them as the other gender, it doesn't make sense, and it shows a lack of understanding in genetics. Actually, "biologically," sex and gender are an incredibly complicated subject that biologists struggle with constantly. If you're interested, ArsTechnica's Kate Shaw is running a continuing series on the subject (link). edit: sorry about double post >< | ||
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