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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder?
They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem.
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Reading that quote in the OP, I'm wondering. If you're born a girl but you want to be a man, how do you know what it feels like to be a man? I mean, I've read about people who had a sexchange but later reverted it, which kind of implies that it was all in their head. Like, I have zero idea about what it would be like to be a woman.
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On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem.
does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment?
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On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment?
The medical term is "GRS" (gender reassignment surgery), and, for the most part, it's a positive change, though there's obviously a lot of grey area. FtM transsexuals, for example, generally have a harder time integrating into normal society, because surgical science hasn't figured out how to make a functioning penis, which limits sexual options.
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afaik there's fairly conclusive evidence that trans people's brains are wired differently than "normal" people's.
These sorts of statements always strike me as odd and a little humorous.
After all, absolutely everything we think and do is dictated by our brains, so everything is "wired" in some way. The fact that I decided to have a tuna sandwich today could be deduced from my brain if the knowledge and technology was sufficiently advanced. People still have this idea that the thoughts and the hardware are somehow distinct and separate, and that discovering a difference in a brain proves that only certain thoughts are "wired" that way, instead of ALL thoughts.
I'm shying away from the term "wired" now, because I know people will make an arbitrary distinction between the brain's architecture and the signals within it. My point is, it is all determined by something, what difference does it really make what it is determined by?
On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment?
This is actually a very interesting question... And the reason it is so interesting is because the best treatment and ALSO the best medical/social assessment is actually determined by what we are capable of doing.
For example, if decades ago there was discovered a drug that could "reverse" homosexuality, then homosexuality would still be classified as a mental disorder or illness and treated/eliminated. Since no such drug exists, and since reparative therapy doesn't work, we conclude that society is the problem and not the brain. Really interesting when you think about it, that the best treatment in some circumstances is to convince ourselves it isn't actually a problem at all, because we are powerless to change it.
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On December 04 2012 15:59 Troxle wrote:
I'll give it from my side. I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events).
I don't mean to come off as offensive (but I know this will), but don't you think wanting to mutilate yourself or any of the other things you mentioned could be considered a mental disorder?
I hope I don't come off as an asshole, I legitimately just can't really wrap my head around the subject. I have several gay friends but I think this is an entirely different ballpark. I also don't really understand how this is an issue of civil rights, if anyone cares to explain.
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To the people saying that its not scientific to not call it a disorder:
Wiktionary: Disorder is a physical or psychical malfunction.
Either you can take the stand that it is something wrong in their (the transgenders) mind, or that it is something wrong with their bodies. Since we tend to put greater emphasis on the mind when judging others, I say it is less damning to say its something wrong with their bodies (if you have to choose one). This is also in line with what the transgenders themselves feel. A more scientific approach would be to consider that the body in itself and the mind in itself, of a transgender, is perfectly fine. Then the best, the most precise description would be to state that for a transgender there is a mismatch between body and mind. And that is precisely what APA is saying.
Call it for what it is, avoid baggage, that is the scientific way.
Funnily enough, I have more problem with cosmetic surgery like breast and lip enlargement. Probably because those ideals seems to be pushed upon us externally, and are much less natural (and more akin to wanting to remove an arm). Btw, saying that wanting a sex-change is the same as wanting to remove an arm is similar to saying that women are amputees because they don't have a penis.
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On December 04 2012 17:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +afaik there's fairly conclusive evidence that trans people's brains are wired differently than "normal" people's. These sorts of statements always strike me as odd and a little humorous. After all, absolutely everything we think and do is dictated by our brains, so everything is "wired" in some way. The fact that I decided to have a tuna sandwich today could be deduced from my brain if the knowledge and technology was sufficiently advanced. People still have this idea that the thoughts and the hardware are somehow distinct and separate, and that discovering a difference in a brain proves that only certain thoughts are "wired" that way, instead of ALL thoughts. I'm shying away from the term "wired" now, because I know people will make an arbitrary distinction between the brain's architecture and the signals within it. My point is, it is all determined by something, what difference does it really make what it is determined by?
I don't know if this is a useful analogy, but the "wiring" is sort of like the hardware of your PC. If you try to install 64bit software on a 32bit machine, it might kind of work, but it's a hell of a lot better to switch to 64 because that's what the hardware was meant to execute.
Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment? This is actually a very interesting question... And the reason it is so interesting is because the best treatment and ALSO the best medical/social assessment is actually determined by what we are capable of doing. For example, if decades ago there was discovered a drug that could "reverse" homosexuality, then homosexuality would still be classified as a mental disorder or illness and treated/eliminated. Since no such drug exists, and since reparative therapy doesn't work, we conclude that society is the problem and not the brain. Really interesting when you think about it, that the best treatment in some circumstances is to convince ourselves it isn't actually a problem at all, because we are powerless to change it.
Biology has (recently) taught us that gender, sex, and sexuality are very fluid. Sexuality/gender issues is one of the cutting edges of biology research, and we're learning more and more about how little we know every day.
I don't mean to come off as offensive (but I know this will), but don't you think wanting to mutilate yourself or any of the other things you mentioned could be considered a mental disorder?
I hope I don't come off as an asshole, I legitimately just can't really wrap my head around the subject. I have several gay friends but I think this is an entirely different ballpark. I also don't really understand how this is an issue of civil rights, if anyone cares to explain.
One could argue that the drive to self-mutilation is a societal issue, not a psychiatric one. If we accept that trans people have a right to be who they are, and aren't discriminated for it, then s/he wouldn't have any impulse to self-mutilate; trained doctors would perform the procedure, covered by insurance.
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On December 04 2012 15:59 Troxle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable I'll give it from my side. I don't exactly have issues with how I look other than I look male. I know I am an attractive/cute male. I get complimented about it all the time. But that's not me. I identify as a female, and feel that my body should have been female to match as well. The options to correct it are rather simple honestly. I'll take some anti-androgens to stop the testosterone from further masculinizin' me and I'll take estradial to put estrogen in my system. This will give me softer skin, less muscle mass, and breasts so I will appear outwardly, as a cisfemale (someone who was born female and does not identify under the trans umbrella). As far as surgery goes, I will not opt for FFS (facial feminization surgery) because I don't have cosmetic issues with myself, sure my chin could probably use it and so could my forehead, but I'll look female without it and I'm not vain enough to care. As far as SRS/GRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery/Genital Reassignment Surgery) goes, I do plan to get this. I guess you could call it a cosmetic reason, because I don't want to be walkin' around in tight women's clothes with a bulge in my pants that makes onlookers skeptical. It also feels very foreign to me when my male bits are bein' active (whether masturbatin' or durin' sexual penetration). Now I plan to pay for that on my own, but that's my choice. For some people, they really can't stand their male parts and have gone to drastic lengths (I've had a few episodes where I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events). Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:57 dUTtrOACh wrote:On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term. Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket. Depends on the company, the country and the surgeon. And that's the price for male to female. If I remember correctly, female to male surgery starts around $70k and only jumps up?
I've always wondered about this and this seems like an appropriate place to ask so~
When someone does the female > male or male > female surgery, what is sex like? Vagina's are pretty crazy things and I guess a penis is too, but can you actually "get off" like a natural born male or female? Can the doctors make it where a female > male is able to ejaculate? Does it get hard on its own? Or is there some kind of thing they do to make it hard? Can the male > female women cum? I understand wanting to look like the sex you identify with, but the actual act of having sex is a major part of daily (or in some cases monthly) lives of people. I would be shocked if people were giving up the ability to have an orgasm to have the surgery, but if they are then its a testament to their dedication to this life changing procedure.
I know that sounds kind of vulgar, but again, I grew up in a really sheltered part of the world in a really sheltered family. I'm pretty clueless about this stuff and the first link I tried looked innocent but it was like searching lemonparty or whitehouse @.@ (cannot unsee).
Seems strange to me that they were ever considered mentally ill in the first place. So, its good that they don't have that cloud of persecution hanging over their heads anymore.
Thanks <3
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It should be considered a mental disorder.
If somebody is willing to stuff themselves with drugs to get tits and a figure that sort of resembles a female then I believe that those people have something wrong with them.
Also... Transgender from female to male is fucked up, have you seen what they do? They get these fake shrivelled up dicks.
Male to Female they just chop your dick off and do a few other things, however I believe any form of self mutilation to be something you are not is screwed up.
I'm sure if I had surgery to be changed from a human to dolphin, people would say I was mentally unstable.
Male to Dolphin Reference: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154792/dolphinoplasty
Also, mega bias is here since Scarlett is transgender.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 04 2012 17:43 blug wrote:It should be considered a mental disorder. If somebody is willing to stuff themselves with drugs to get tits and a figure that sort of resembles a female then I believe that those people have something wrong with them. Also... Transgender from female to male is fucked up, have you seen what they do? They get these fake shrivelled up dicks. Male to Female they just chop your dick off and do a few other things, however I believe any form of self mutilation to be something you are not is screwed up. I'm sure if I had surgery to be changed from a human to dolphin, people would say I was mentally unstable. Male to Dolphin Reference: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154792/dolphinoplastyAlso, mega bias is here since Scarlett is transgender.
you know nothing about these surgeries and should limit your opinions to what you know
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On December 04 2012 17:33 Joedaddy wrote:
I've always wondered about this and this seems like an appropriate place to ask so~
When someone does the female > male or male > female surgery, what is sex like? Vagina's are pretty crazy things and I guess a penis is too, but can you actually "get off" like a natural born male or female? yes, for the most part Can the doctors make it where a female > male is able to ejaculate?
orgasm, yes. ejaculate, no. Does it get hard on its own? Or is there some kind of thing they do to make it hard? the testosterone-enlarged clitoris/penis gets hard, if they chose a metoidioplasty, their penis is cut free from the clit hood and is basically a functioning micropenis. the trans guys that get phalloplasty to have a more penetrative penis need a pump installed inside it to get hard Can the male > female women cum? yes I understand wanting to look like the sex you identify with, but the actual act of having sex is a major part of daily (or in some cases monthly) lives of people. I would be shocked if people were giving up the ability to have an orgasm to have the surgery, but if they are then its a testament to their dedication to this life changing procedure.
losing the ability to orgasm is a risk that we take and have to weigh, but it's not an especially large risk with the advances in medicine and surgery technology
also, for the record, not every trans person wants or needs surgery.. some are perfectly content with the equipment they were born with, as long as they are treated as their identified gender
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It seems like a big discussion over semantics, should people who want to change their sex be still treated?: yes, and should people still not discriminate against members of the transsexual and transgender community?: yes.
Now will this stop anyone who should transition from transitioning, or result in a body (public or private) preventing them? Highly unlikely. Will this stop anyone who is prejudiced towards the trans community because it was classified as a disorder? Also highly unlikely.
So maybe it will stop prejudice, but I'm a sceptic in this regard.
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On December 04 2012 17:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment? This is actually a very interesting question... And the reason it is so interesting is because the best treatment and ALSO the best medical/social assessment is actually determined by what we are capable of doing. For example, if decades ago there was discovered a drug that could "reverse" homosexuality, then homosexuality would still be classified as a mental disorder or illness and treated/eliminated. Since no such drug exists, and since reparative therapy doesn't work, we conclude that society is the problem and not the brain. Really interesting when you think about it, that the best treatment in some circumstances is to convince ourselves it isn't actually a problem at all, because we are powerless to change it.
Yes and no. Once you start deciding that you can just modify people's brains, especially if it is against their will (and if it's not, there would be plenty of homosexuals who would refuse "treatment" and still want civil rights, so nothing will have been eliminated), to conform to your own ideas of normalcy, you're starting to get into very dangerous waters.
As an example, there are deaf people who actually strongly dislike parents getting cochlear implants for their deaf children so that they can hear. These people consider such implants as "genocide" (yes, some of them use that word) against deaf culture. Now personally, I disagree with such a position, as there's a very clear and objective problem with deafness.
But something similar is true for people with high-functioning Autism. Many of them see the effort to find a drug to diminish or cure such Autism to be anathema to letting such people develop naturally.
I think at this point, there are real concerns about the idea of "curing" such people with mind-affecting drugs, even if a "cure" was discovered that actually worked. You know, without the psychological scarring and such that modern "treatments" cause.
On December 04 2012 17:43 blug wrote:
It should be considered a mental disorder.
If somebody is willing to stuff themselves with drugs to get tits and a figure that sort of resembles a female then I believe that those people have something wrong with them.
Yes. Something is wrong with them. Their brains are squatting in the wrong bodies. That's the point. They want to change their bodies to match their brains.
On December 04 2012 17:43 blug wrote:
Also... Transgender from female to male is fucked up, have you seen what they do? They get these fake shrivelled up dicks.
Male to Female they just chop your dick off and do a few other things, however I believe any form of self mutilation to be something you are not is screwed up.
So, your basis for believing it's a mental disorder has nothing to do with scientific inquiry, facts, or evidence of any kind. It's because you find it personally repulsive.
That's the other kind of issue people have. Not so much a "it's their choice, and I can be a dick to people for their choices" as a "transpeople freak me out."
Somehow, I can't bring myself to care if they freak you out.
Nice strawman, but that doesn't actually deal with any argument presented here. Thanks for playing.
On December 04 2012 18:03 Kerotan wrote:
It seems like a big discussion over semantics, should people who want to change their sex be still treated?: yes, and should people still not discriminate against members of the transsexual and transgender community?: yes.
Now will this stop anyone who should transition from transitioning, or result in a body (public or private) preventing them? Highly unlikely. Will this stop anyone who is prejudiced towards the trans community because it was classified as a disorder? Also highly unlikely.
So maybe it will stop prejudice, but I'm a sceptic in this regard.
A big part of science (which people seem to forget is what Psychology is) is classification. Biological classification is all about documenting the relationship between species, as this can offer insights into them and so forth.
It's important to psychology to know what is and is not "behavior within expected human norms". Indeed, drawing that line is half of the point of the entire field. "Behavior within expected human norms" are things psychologists should not be trying to "fix" in patients.
By declassifying it as a disorder, it means that psychology no longer considers it a mental problem. If a psychologists detects gender dysphoria in a patient, the DSM-V now states that this is not something they should be trying to cure or treat in some way.
So no, it's not mere semantics. Or rather it is, but it's semantics in a way that matters. It's saying that the stomach isn't part of the respiratory system; it's in the digestive system. So you should go see an expert on the digestive system, not a pulminologist when you have stomach problems.
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On December 04 2012 17:03 ninini wrote:
When I hear talk of not feeling like your gender, or that the brain is of the wrong gender, you lose me. Biologically, gender is pretty straightforward. Except for mutations, you are either male or female, no exceptions, and it's impossible to confuse the two.
Feminism tries to make male and female into the same thing, while the concept of transgender goes the other way, claiming that if you don't relate to your gender, you should change.
Neither of these concepts would exist if we just saw the genders for what they actually were, and got rid of the stereotypes. I don't see any reason why a man couldn't wear a dress, put on a lot of makeup, and overall act in a stereotypical female way, without having to question his gender. Why let stereotypes confuse you?
If someone feels like they don't belong to their gender, then maybe they should try redefining their ideas about what gender really is, rather than changing themselves. I just think it's sad, because you can't question your gender without questioning your existence.
Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not against transgenders. I'm not gonna decide what is allowed to do with your own body, but when someone says that a certain part of them feels like and qualifies them as the other gender, it doesn't make sense, and it shows a lack of understanding in genetics.
It's not about gender roles. Everything you said about what gender really is is absolutely correct. There's no reason that a man can't wear makeup and a dress other than ridiculous social bullshit telling him that it's somehow emasculating. But that doesn't have anything to do with transsexualism. Being trans is primarily about your physical sex; there are plenty of butch trans women and effeminate trans men out there. I myself am totally happy acting in a way which society dictates is masculine. I sit around on the internet watching Starcraft, playing DotA, swearing at people, not socialising much or having any close friendships. I make dick jokes constantly, watched the shit out of The Avengers and have no interest in chick flicks, rom-coms, whatever, I have no particular interest in skirts and dresses or makeup or pink, I do watch MLP but that's a show for guys nowadays. I'm not trans because I want to do 'girl stuff', it's because, for some reason that nobody, including me, truly understands, on some basic level some part of my brain just requires that I be female. Which means doing all the nerdy guy stuff that I do right now except I'm physically female and people call me she. That's about it.
That being said, there are plenty of trans women who act in a feminine way too, and trans men who act masculine, just like there are plenty of cis (ie, not trans) men and women who act in accordance to their gender roles. A majority, in fact. But there are also a decent number of trans people like me who don't fit into the gender role of their preferred sex, so saying that we all just need to abandon society's ideas of what men/women should do doesn't work.
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On December 04 2012 18:21 Twilight Sparkle wrote:But there are also a decent number of trans people like me who don't fit into the gender role of their preferred sex, so saying that we all just need to abandon society's ideas of what men/women should do doesn't work.
fuck yes well said
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Maybe someone could explain more clearly why I'm wrong, but even though I am the biggest proponent in the world (family member is trans), I fail to see how a mental disconnect like feeling like the gender of your conciousness doesn't match your body ISN'T a disorder qualifying for treatment under DSM? I mean, if we are offering a slough of medical treatments for this identity issue, then there should be a medical diagnosis based on a disorder. It is in no way the same to me as homosexuality, which isn't something that should even involve a doctor's input.
Hell, how can we diagnose a child or teen and allow them to begin social transition without defining it as a doctor diagnosed medical issue? How can we give hormone blockers for something that isn't even a disorder?
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On December 04 2012 17:59 Kaorix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:33 Joedaddy wrote:
I've always wondered about this and this seems like an appropriate place to ask so~
When someone does the female > male or male > female surgery, what is sex like? Vagina's are pretty crazy things and I guess a penis is too, but can you actually "get off" like a natural born male or female? yes, for the most part orgasm, yes. ejaculate, no. Show nested quote +Does it get hard on its own? Or is there some kind of thing they do to make it hard? the testosterone-enlarged clitoris/penis gets hard, if they chose a metoidioplasty, their penis is cut free from the clit hood and is basically a functioning micropenis. the trans guys that get phalloplasty to have a more penetrative penis need a pump installed inside it to get hard yes Show nested quote + I understand wanting to look like the sex you identify with, but the actual act of having sex is a major part of daily (or in some cases monthly) lives of people. I would be shocked if people were giving up the ability to have an orgasm to have the surgery, but if they are then its a testament to their dedication to this life changing procedure. losing the ability to orgasm is a risk that we take and have to weigh, but it's not an especially large risk with the advances in medicine and surgery technology also, for the record, not every trans person wants or needs surgery.. some are perfectly content with the equipment they were born with, as long as they are treated as their identified gender
I think it is quite the opposite actually
People who goes through trans therapy, either through hormones or a combination with surgery etc. often feel extremely liberated and happy for the first time in their life, and their sexual desire and ability to experience orgasms is usually increased through their transition, not the other way around.
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On December 04 2012 18:15 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 17:16 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 04 2012 17:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 17:07 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2012 16:57 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 04 2012 16:53 corpuscle wrote:On December 04 2012 16:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:
can't say that I agree with their conclusion. I don't think people should be discriminated against, obviously, but that shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not it is considered a disorder. and it is somewhat tiresome, as someone who has family who suffer from mental disorders, to listen to people talk about how it's offensive to be told they have a mental disorder. there is nothing wrong with having a disorder, and putting a negative stigma on it (while that may not be their intent) is really bad, imo. I agree that mental disorders shouldn't be stigmatized unfairly, but calling transgenderism (I don't know what else to call it) a mental disorder is still disingenuous, just like homosexuality. People who are depressed or suffer from ADD have a disorder (I have both), but someone who is trans is only "sick" in the respect that society doesn't accept them. Saying that someone who has transitioned and is happy with who they are still has an underlying mental disorder is degrading and unfair. do we have any evidence that they are not suffering from some sort of genetic/mental disorder? They are suffering from a genetic disorder. Specifically, their neurology doesn't agree with their physiology. Since changing neurology is difficult if not impossible (and even if it is possible, it would effectively change who the person is), changing physiology to match the neurology is the most effective way of dealing with the problem. does the research suggest that sex-changes (don't know the actual medical term) are the best treatment? This is actually a very interesting question... And the reason it is so interesting is because the best treatment and ALSO the best medical/social assessment is actually determined by what we are capable of doing. For example, if decades ago there was discovered a drug that could "reverse" homosexuality, then homosexuality would still be classified as a mental disorder or illness and treated/eliminated. Since no such drug exists, and since reparative therapy doesn't work, we conclude that society is the problem and not the brain. Really interesting when you think about it, that the best treatment in some circumstances is to convince ourselves it isn't actually a problem at all, because we are powerless to change it. Yes and no. Once you start deciding that you can just modify people's brains, especially if it is against their will (and if it's not, there would be plenty of homosexuals who would refuse "treatment" and still want civil rights, so nothing will have been eliminated), to conform to your own ideas of normalcy, you're starting to get into very dangerous waters. As an example, there are deaf people who actually strongly dislike parents getting cochlear implants for their deaf children so that they can hear. These people consider such implants as "genocide" (yes, some of them use that word) against deaf culture. Now personally, I disagree with such a position, as there's a very clear and objective problem with deafness. But something similar is true for people with high-functioning Autism. Many of them see the effort to find a drug to diminish or cure such Autism to be anathema to letting such people develop naturally. I think at this point, there are real concerns about the idea of "curing" such people with mind-affecting drugs, even if a "cure" was discovered that actually worked. You know, without the psychological scarring and such that modern "treatments" cause.
You are assuming the treatment has to be an after the fact cure. Well then, suppose the treatment was something preventative instead of retroactive. Suppose for example a mother could take a pill which would guarantee a straight child.
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I keep typing up something to post, then deleting it. I honestly can not figure out where to stand on this. Obviously, the ruling from more of a PC stance to remove discrimination is a good thing, and thus I have no issues with it.
How to actually view transgendered people and their problems are a completely different and complex issue. The trains of thought that this discussion uses move on quickly to a metaphysical discussion of what makes you actually you. Whether or not I think it's a mental disorder isn't even relevant, really. A person has the right to try and be happy and in the meantime it's not like we have anything resembling a fix to the feelings a trans-person feels about their body.... so as weird as surgery is I can't really fault a person for taking that path.
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EPT
