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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
As a mentally ill person, I'm okay with this. More attention on me and my disorders.
Oh, and protip: If you want to know how to deal with a transgendered person, the answer is: Like a person. No special positive treatments, no special negative treatments. Exactly the same way you did before it was even hinted they are transgendered.
If anyone is curious why, it's touchy, it's simple. There are those who cannot understand how other people can't think like them, and thus assume that everything that doesn't make sense to them must be wrong and act as such. This tends to lead to extremly banal hostilities and positions.
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Question: What is the difference between believing that you are a man born is a woman's body and, what people have been arguing, that the person IS is man in a woman's body? Can you even differentiate between the two?
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On December 04 2012 14:48 Proxie wrote:
Question: What is the difference between believing that you are a man born is a woman's body and, what people have been arguing, that the person IS is man in a woman's body? Can you even differentiate between the two?
Those 2 things really are the same thing (gender identity). Earlier there was a discussion about the difference between someone thinking they should have been born as a different gender, and someones gender not matching one that was assigned at birth. An important distinction in that case is that its not a question of what they should be its what they are. So its not that transgendered individuals want to change their gender, the want to change their body to match what their gender already is.
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the key word here is "disorder"
the issue is not about mental health, but that it does not affect your work/school/family in a significant negative manner
everyone here is mentally unhealthy to varying degrees, but as long as it doesn't cause you to fail school, get fired, or be violent toward family members it isn't a disorder.
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I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable
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On December 04 2012 14:40 Fuzzmosis wrote:
If anyone is curious why, it's touchy, it's simple. There are those who cannot understand how other people can't think like them, and thus assume that everything that doesn't make sense to them must be wrong and act as such. This tends to lead to extremly banal hostilities and positions.
I think this part is wrongheaded.
I find that the reason why it's "touchy" is that the people who are on the "other side" don't accept that it's real. They don't buy into the idea that gender dysphoria exists as a concept. To them, they simply see it as someone deciding, perhaps on a lark, perhaps after some introspection, to alter their bodies and lifestyles.
If it's something that is not under a person's control, then refusing to accept them for something they had no control over is rather assholish. But if it's someone's choice, then by making that choice, they open themselves and their choices up to ridicule.
This is also why it's not OK to pick on people of <insert race here>, while it is (relatively) OK to pick on fat people. Because being fat is their choice; by making that choice, they also choose to accept the consequences of being potentially picked on.
People are judged by the choices they make. Thus, because the "other side" doesn't see this as something innate but as a choice, they are perfectly fine being dicks to these people for making that choice.
On December 04 2012 14:54 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 14:48 Proxie wrote:
Question: What is the difference between believing that you are a man born is a woman's body and, what people have been arguing, that the person IS is man in a woman's body? Can you even differentiate between the two? Those 2 things really are the same thing (gender identity). Earlier there was a discussion about the difference between someone thinking they should have been born as a different gender, and someones gender not matching one that was assigned at birth. An important distinction in that case is that its not a question of what they should be its what they are. So its not that transgendered individuals want to change their gender, the want to change their body to match what their gender already is.
I think the point he's trying to get at is the difference between what someone wants and what someone actually is. That is, if they do have gender dysphoria, is there something besides what they say that can be used to diagnose it. It's a question of "hard" science vs. "soft" science.
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On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable
All of the supposedly transgendered individuals that you list as examples why you aren't opposed to them aren't transgendered. Those people are cross dressers. While Boy George may wear womens clothes and act feminine he still considers himself a man, and this is apparent in the way that he interacts in society (male pronouns etc).
This may be contributing toward your confusion. There is a difference between gender roles and gender just like there is a difference between being feminine and being female. As a guy I can say that I am feminine or effeminate if I act in a matter that is considered to be identified with femininity. But I cannot say that I am female, because I don't identify as such. Transgendered individuals don't want to act like the other gender, they are the other gender and their issue comes from.
A: wanting their body to match that gender
and
B: wanting to be perceived as such in society
I can identify as male all I want, but if I have large breasts and walk into a male restroom I will probably get asked to leave at best, and at worst could be subject to transphobic violence. Its also generally hard to act in society as a member of the gender you identify as when other people don't recognize that gender. That is why some transgendered individuals choose surgery or other ways of "transitioning" into their true gender.
It should also be noted that not all of them hate their bodies and not all of them choose surgery. Some are content simply with hormone therapy. Some are happy just to be themselves and have no problem bein mistaken for the opposite gender. But not everyone is ok with that, and so it seems to be reasonable to allow them to change themselves to make their daily lives easier
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On December 04 2012 14:54 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 14:48 Proxie wrote:
Question: What is the difference between believing that you are a man born is a woman's body and, what people have been arguing, that the person IS is man in a woman's body? Can you even differentiate between the two? Those 2 things really are the same thing (gender identity). Earlier there was a discussion about the difference between someone thinking they should have been born as a different gender, and someones gender not matching one that was assigned at birth. An important distinction in that case is that its not a question of what they should be its what they are. So its not that transgendered individuals want to change their gender, the want to change their body to match what their gender already is.
I think the point he's trying to get at is the difference between what someone wants and what someone actually is. That is, if they do have gender dysphoria, is there something besides what they say that can be used to diagnose it. It's a question of "hard" science vs. "soft" science.[/QUOTE]
I think it would be difficult to have some "hard" evidence to prove that someone is or isn't transgendered, but I think that few people would choose to switch and live as a gender that they don't identify with. No amount of hormone therapy or surgery would change someones gender identity, so those kinds of treatments would help someone who "wants to be the other gender"
EDIT: sorry it appears that I have quoted myself instead of the person I was intending to answer. I don't really know how to fix this but if this is intended to be in answer to the post above by NicolBolas
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Strange subject for me. I've never met a transgender as far as I know. It's an issue my mind literally cannot comprehend. I'm admittedly ignorant on it. I grew up with my cousin who was open about being gay very early in life. I never felt he was mentally ill or really even different from me besides our differences in sexual orientation. However when it comes to transgender I just don't see how it is not in fact a mental illness. Maybe that's just because I'm ignorant to it and can't relate in the slightest bit but I don't really see how it wouldn't be considered a mental illness. That's not to say such a person should be treated badly or different.
I've also heard people say it's not wrong for a transgender to not disclose their "previous sex" before a relationship or what have you. That's just not something I could ever agree with. I would be disturbed to be in such a situation.
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What does a gender reassignment cost a person these days, on average? Since it's no longer a "disorder", how does that affect the price or availability? Is this a step forward, or what?
EDIT: I'm not too sure how well-versed the public at large is about the APA's classifications on anything. Until these things touch their lives, you'd think they would continue to live in blissful ignorance and form their own opinions about how they feel about transgender.
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On December 04 2012 15:26 heliusx wrote:
Strange subject for me. I've never met a transgender as far as I know. It's an issue my mind literally cannot comprehend. I'm admittedly ignorant on it. I grew up with my cousin who was open about being gay very early in life. I never felt he was mentally ill or really even different from me besides our differences in sexual orientation. However when it comes to transgender I just don't see how it is not in fact a mental illness. Maybe that's just because I'm ignorant to it and can't relate in the slightest bit but I don't really see how it wouldn't be considered a mental illness. That's not to say such a person should be treated badly or different.
If you don't really understand it how can you be so quick to decide that it must be a mental illness  .If we consider that gender identity and biological sex (XY vs XX) are independent then it is not hard to imagine a case where the 2 might not match up. The question is, if your gender identity doesn't match your biological sex, could we consider it a disorder of the brain (i.e. ideally you must agree with you biological sex and treatment should focus on changing your gender identity) or should we consider it to be an issue with the body (i.e. we should accept the patients gender identity as is and focus on helping them comfortably participate in society as that gender). Past efforts to change the gender identity of those diagnosed with GID have essentially failed, and only lead to them suppressing their true identity, which is traumatic. Thus I think it is prudent that we focus on accepting the identified gender of transgendered individuals, and help them overcome social barriers to engaging in society as that gender.
Also not that I think you want to discriminate against transgendered individuals, but classifying them a mentally unstable makes it very easy to do so.
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On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable
Dunno how 'reliable/objective' of a third party I can be as a trans person, but the closest approximation to the feeling I can think of is just absolute self-loathing and disgust, an internal feeling of everything being wrong. It's not really about being insecure with the body in a traditional sense (hell, post-transition, I'm hardly great-looking, and just like any other person I have hangup--nose looks a bit big, hips are too flat, etc etc bullshit stuff) but an innate sense of incongruity. Again, I've felt both gender dysphoria, and typical hangups, and they are completely different in feeling.
The surgery deal seems to be the biggest hangup for people that aren't trans--I guess rightfully so. The genitals are the core of their existence in many ways from a biological standpoint, and the rationale to be willing to void them seems beyond contemplation, but that in my opinion merely speaks to the severity of the inner discontent. But not all trans people have genital dysphoria. Some simply feel indifferent, transition but stay non-operative. Some do it simply for legal benefits--gender marker changes on licenses/birth certificates/marriage licenses/etc. I'm sure some do it for their partners mostly as well. It's a really tricky and dynamic thing, but in a lot of cases it's simply because it's a source of extreme depression. To use a personal anecdote, in day to day life I'm not even reminded that I'm trans, then at the end of the day I step into the shower and, hell, it's almost like I forgot--oh, yeah, THAT.
To clarify though, part of it is still considered a disorder--the Gender Dysphoria. They just removed the Gender Identity Disorder--which roughly equated to a roundabout way of saying the persons gender is their disorder. Now, the gender dysphoria is the disorder, same as someone with chronic depression, the depression itself is the disorder.
On December 04 2012 15:11 NicolBolas wrote:
I think this part is wrongheaded.
I find that the reason why it's "touchy" is that the people who are on the "other side" don't accept that it's real. They don't buy into the idea that gender dysphoria exists as a concept. To them, they simply see it as someone deciding, perhaps on a lark, perhaps after some introspection, to alter their bodies and lifestyles.
If it's something that is not under a person's control, then refusing to accept them for something they had no control over is rather assholish. But if it's someone's choice, then by making that choice, they open themselves and their choices up to ridicule.
This is also why it's not OK to pick on people of <insert race here>, while it is (relatively) OK to pick on fat people. Because being fat is their choice; by making that choice, they also choose to accept the consequences of being potentially picked on.
People are judged by the choices they make. Thus, because the "other side" doesn't see this as something innate but as a choice, they are perfectly fine being dicks to these people for making that choice.
This is a pretty good explanation of one of the fundamental issues with many discussions on transsexuality. Because it is not directly observational outside of individuals expressions and actions, it is construed by some to be voluntary.
I highly doubt anyone would choose to be trans, heh.
On December 04 2012 15:11 NicolBolas wrote:
I think the point he's trying to get at is the difference between what someone wants and what someone actually is. That is, if they do have gender dysphoria, is there something besides what they say that can be used to diagnose it. It's a question of "hard" science vs. "soft" science.
The only 'hard' science evidence is sections of the brain that have been shown to use different transmitters in males and females--and trans people have been shown on cadivers to have the transmitter matched with their gender identity. Sample sizes were small though, and it's not exactly thoroughly checked yet. It's a start though. It seems like there's not a lot of science done on transsexuality from a biological standpoint.
On December 04 2012 15:15 packrat386 wrote:
All of the supposedly transgendered individuals that you list as examples why you aren't opposed to them aren't transgendered. Those people are cross dressers.
Keep in mind transgender is an umbrella term used mainly as a 'catch-all' to describe gender non-conforming, and includes Transsexuals, BiGender individuals, gender fluid individuals, cross-dressers, drag performers, and a few other groups.
If you're describing individuals that directly were assigned a sex at birth opposite (in a binary-gender sense) to their gender identity, then they are indeed transsexual.
On December 04 2012 15:31 dUTtrOACh wrote:
What does a gender reassignment cost a person these days, on average? Since it's no longer a "disorder", how does that affect the price or availability? Is this a step forward, or what?
EDIT: I'm not too sure how well-versed the public at large is about the APA's classifications on anything. Until these things touch their lives, you'd think they would continue to live in blissful ignorance and form their own opinions about how they feel about transgender.
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term.
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I appear to have double posted. Sorry!
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On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:15 packrat386 wrote:
All of the supposedly transgendered individuals that you list as examples why you aren't opposed to them aren't transgendered. Those people are cross dressers. Keep in mind transgender is an umbrella term used mainly as a 'catch-all' to describe gender non-conforming, and includes Transsexuals, BiGender individuals, gender fluid individuals, cross-dressers, drag performers, and a few other groups. If you're describing individuals that directly were assigned a sex at birth opposite (in a binary-gender sense) to their gender identity, then they are indeed transsexual..
Sorry I have confused my terminology. What I meant to say is that those people still do identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth, whereas people that would have been diagnosed with GID identify with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. This distinction should be highlighted though. Transgenderism as a spectrum is generally not well understood or explained many people, and is evinced by the fact almost all of the discussion in this thread is really about a particular subset of transgendered individuals (those who identintify with a gender that they were not assigned at birth and choose to undergo surgery as a result).
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On December 04 2012 15:35 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:26 heliusx wrote:
Strange subject for me. I've never met a transgender as far as I know. It's an issue my mind literally cannot comprehend. I'm admittedly ignorant on it. I grew up with my cousin who was open about being gay very early in life. I never felt he was mentally ill or really even different from me besides our differences in sexual orientation. However when it comes to transgender I just don't see how it is not in fact a mental illness. Maybe that's just because I'm ignorant to it and can't relate in the slightest bit but I don't really see how it wouldn't be considered a mental illness. That's not to say such a person should be treated badly or different. If you don't really understand it how can you be so quick to decide that it must be a mental illness .If we consider that gender identity and biological sex (XY vs XX) are independent then it is not hard to imagine a case where the 2 might not match up. The question is, if your gender identity doesn't match your biological sex, could we consider it a disorder of the brain (i.e. ideally you must agree with you biological sex and treatment should focus on changing your gender identity) or should we consider it to be an issue with the body (i.e. we should accept the patients gender identity as is and focus on helping them comfortably participate in society as that gender). Past efforts to change the gender identity of those diagnosed with GID have essentially failed, and only lead to them suppressing their true identity, which is traumatic. Thus I think it is prudent that we focus on accepting the identified gender of transgendered individuals, and help them overcome social barriers to engaging in society as that gender. Also not that I think you want to discriminate against transgendered individuals, but classifying them a mentally unstable makes it very easy to do so.
yeah, mentally ill is probably not the correct word to use. I don't really know what transgender is or how it can happen besides the obvious. I don't think they are crazy people who are mentally unstable. Maybe this thread will let me understand a little bit.
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It's still clearly an issue for these people. Maybe it would be better to call it a bodily disorder than a mental disorder.
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On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term.
Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket.
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On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable
I'll give it from my side.
I don't exactly have issues with how I look other than I look male. I know I am an attractive/cute male. I get complimented about it all the time. But that's not me. I identify as a female, and feel that my body should have been female to match as well. The options to correct it are rather simple honestly. I'll take some anti-androgens to stop the testosterone from further masculinizin' me and I'll take estradial to put estrogen in my system. This will give me softer skin, less muscle mass, and breasts so I will appear outwardly, as a cisfemale (someone who was born female and does not identify under the trans umbrella). As far as surgery goes, I will not opt for FFS (facial feminization surgery) because I don't have cosmetic issues with myself, sure my chin could probably use it and so could my forehead, but I'll look female without it and I'm not vain enough to care. As far as SRS/GRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery/Genital Reassignment Surgery) goes, I do plan to get this. I guess you could call it a cosmetic reason, because I don't want to be walkin' around in tight women's clothes with a bulge in my pants that makes onlookers skeptical. It also feels very foreign to me when my male bits are bein' active (whether masturbatin' or durin' sexual penetration). Now I plan to pay for that on my own, but that's my choice. For some people, they really can't stand their male parts and have gone to drastic lengths (I've had a few episodes where I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events).
On December 04 2012 15:57 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term. Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket.
Depends on the company, the country and the surgeon. And that's the price for male to female. If I remember correctly, female to male surgery starts around $70k and only jumps up?
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On December 04 2012 15:15 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable All of the supposedly transgendered individuals that you list as examples why you aren't opposed to them aren't transgendered. Those people are cross dressers. While Boy George may wear womens clothes and act feminine he still considers himself a man, and this is apparent in the way that he interacts in society (male pronouns etc). This may be contributing toward your confusion. There is a difference between gender roles and gender just like there is a difference between being feminine and being female. As a guy I can say that I am feminine or effeminate if I act in a matter that is considered to be identified with femininity. But I cannot say that I am female, because I don't identify as such. Transgendered individuals don't want to act like the other gender, they are the other gender and their issue comes from. A: wanting their body to match that gender and B: wanting to be perceived as such in society I can identify as male all I want, but if I have large breasts and walk into a male restroom I will probably get asked to leave at best, and at worst could be subject to transphobic violence. Its also generally hard to act in society as a member of the gender you identify as when other people don't recognize that gender. That is why some transgendered individuals choose surgery or other ways of "transitioning" into their true gender. It should also be noted that not all of them hate their bodies and not all of them choose surgery. Some are content simply with hormone therapy. Some are happy just to be themselves and have no problem bein mistaken for the opposite gender. But not everyone is ok with that, and so it seems to be reasonable to allow them to change themselves to make their daily lives easier
TBH it's fairly acceptable for a woman to use the mens room (most guys don't care), the opposite isn't true though.
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On December 04 2012 15:59 Troxle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 14:56 RockIronrod wrote:
I'm mixed on this.
There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with your gender role, and identifying better with the other genders'. Not following social constructs isn't a mental disorder, in a civilized society they aren't really needed for survival anymore, we can safely evolve past them as a people.
However, the body dysphoria part I can't get on board with. The want to physically change your body so radically should be considered a mental illness in my opinion, regardless of how/why. If someone identifies as another race, then I'm all on board with them following the cultures of that race, but if you're that bodily disgusted with yourself you'd resort to surgery to appear that race, I'd say you were mentally ill.
I don't want to sound like a bigot, and I don't think transgender people should be discriminated against (hell, my favourite musicians are Yohio, tissue-hime and Boy motherfucking George), but I honestly think that being that insecure about your body is beyond something that should be regarded as mentally stable.
I guess as a tl;dr it could be said I draw the line on mentally sound and mentally ill on the willingness to get surgery.
I'd love to hear what I sound like from a third person perspective, because I don't want to be THAT guy, I kind of want to hear if I sound reasonable I'll give it from my side. I don't exactly have issues with how I look other than I look male. I know I am an attractive/cute male. I get complimented about it all the time. But that's not me. I identify as a female, and feel that my body should have been female to match as well. The options to correct it are rather simple honestly. I'll take some anti-androgens to stop the testosterone from further masculinizin' me and I'll take estradial to put estrogen in my system. This will give me softer skin, less muscle mass, and breasts so I will appear outwardly, as a cisfemale (someone who was born female and does not identify under the trans umbrella). As far as surgery goes, I will not opt for FFS (facial feminization surgery) because I don't have cosmetic issues with myself, sure my chin could probably use it and so could my forehead, but I'll look female without it and I'm not vain enough to care. As far as SRS/GRS (Sex Reassignment Surgery/Genital Reassignment Surgery) goes, I do plan to get this. I guess you could call it a cosmetic reason, because I don't want to be walkin' around in tight women's clothes with a bulge in my pants that makes onlookers skeptical. It also feels very foreign to me when my male bits are bein' active (whether masturbatin' or durin' sexual penetration). Now I plan to pay for that on my own, but that's my choice. For some people, they really can't stand their male parts and have gone to drastic lengths (I've had a few episodes where I got so dysphoric I contemplated cuttin' it off with a knife, but I thought the better of it cause I need it intact for SRS...). Its not somethin' we can control either. We can bury and smother them for years, but no matter what, they find their way to the surface and we get overwhelmed with dysphoria. Imagine the most traumatic event in your life and how it impacted you. Now imagine that event reoccurin' daily (I've been in the same buildin' as a shootin' as well as a car wreck that was less than a 6 inches shy of 5 dead people and suicides of a father-like figure and I still consider this to be the most traumatic thing in my life, it makes me cry more than the thoughts and fears of those other events). Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 15:57 dUTtrOACh wrote:On December 04 2012 15:35 Alay wrote:
20k+/- depending on the surgeon.
It likely will affect neither availability nor price, nor insurance coverage in the short term. Thanks for the reply. So, insurance covers this, or is it considered cosmetic? It would be a shame if it is, in fact, out of pocket. Depends on the company, the country and the surgeon. And that's the price for male to female. If I remember correctly, female to male surgery starts around $70k and only jumps up?
Thanks so much for sharing your side of the story. Research can only go so far in understanding these things and I think this thread is generally lacking first hand experience. Its hard to continue believing something when you're talking to the counter-example  .
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EPT
