On December 04 2012 12:26 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Well, believing you should have been born another gender or paying large sums of money on surgery and pills to mutate your body into something it's not to make you happy seems mentally unhealthy to me.
Preparing for wave of angry straw liberals.
Well for starters is not a question of believing you should have been born another gender. Transgendered individuals already consider themselves to be the gender that they identify with, what they find traumatic is that their body does not match.
Assume that you are a guy, and one day you wake up, physically altered in that you appear to be female (enlarged breasts, higher voice, even female hormones and its all different down there). Would you still consider yourself a man? I think many men would since they still think like a man, and act like a man, and to them it would seem perfectly reasonable to even call themselves a man.
The problem is, the whole female body thing would get in the way of a lot of daily activities. You're going to get a lot of strange looks if, for instance, you try to use the mens room. There is also the issue that you would no find your own body unattractive (nay repulsive) and that would only make your life more difficult. That's gender dysphoria.
For any of this to make sense we have to start with the assumption that gender identity is independent from sex organs you are born with, but that has been backed up by a variety of psychological studies and is the primary accepted interpretation. So it isn't believe that you should have been born the other gender. You ARE one, and now you just want to look like it and have other people recognize that reality
On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote: It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
Wanting to remove a perfectly healthy arm? Your example sounds like a mental disorder to me.
Mental disorder doesn't mean to have strange thoughts/perspectives. That would make a lot of the tea-partiers candidate for mental examination. /scoff
Joke aside, it's about functioning in a society. People are weird. Most people function with their weirdness, few don't. Mental health is to help find a way for these folks to function in day to day society.
On December 04 2012 12:46 Digitalis wrote: didnt even know it was considered one. idk why it would still be considered one if homosexuality was declassified as one in 1973, why did transgender take forever? i guess because it gets less press than 'gay'
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote: It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
Wanting to remove a perfectly healthy arm? Your example sounds like a mental disorder to me.
Mental disorder doesn't mean to have strange thoughts/perspectives. That would make a lot of the tea-partiers candidate for mental examination. /scoff
Joke aside, it's about functioning in a society. People are weird. Most people function with their weirdness, few don't. Mental health is to help find a way for these folks to function in day to day society.
People with mental disorders (ADD, depression, anxiety) are generally considered to be "disabled" in some way, i.e. they have an underlying clinical condition that makes it harder to them to function "normally" in society. Being trans doesn't qualify because there's nothing intrinsic about being transgendered that inhibits their ability to function; they encounter tons of obstacles in life, but most of them are because society isn't accepting of their condition.
Wanting to cut your own arm off has real and quantifiable effects on your ability to interact with society, and would thus qualify as a mental disorder (I'm sure there's something for self-harm)
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
I think it depends on who you ask. In the sociology class I'm in right now, the text says transgenderism (is that even a word?) is a disorder and cites the DSM
On December 04 2012 12:51 jdseemoreglass wrote: Mental disorder is a completely meaningless term... All it has come to mean is "socially acceptable" or "socially unacceptable," which of course changes with time and society.
I agree with you, but the fact that "mental disorder" carries a negative connotation (although scientific and psychological terms generally prioritize denotation) and that "transgender" is being removed from that list despite it technically being an example of "a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder), is a pretty interesting step towards making things more anti-prejudice (and politically correct) and possibly more ambiguous for psychologists.
On December 04 2012 12:46 Digitalis wrote: didnt even know it was considered one. idk why it would still be considered one if homosexuality was declassified as one in 1973, why did transgender take forever? i guess because it gets less press than 'gay'
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
That's more or less what I was about to post more or less. GID is no longer a disorder, Gender Dysphoria is. The difference being the general cure for Gender Dysphoria is Hormone treatments and Transitioning, whereas GID was not.
On December 04 2012 12:26 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Well, believing you should have been born another gender or paying large sums of money on surgery and pills to mutate your body into something it's not to make you happy seems mentally unhealthy to me.
Preparing for wave of angry straw liberals.
Well for starters is not a question of believing you should have been born another gender. Transgendered individuals already consider themselves to be the gender that they identify with, what they find traumatic is that their body does not match.
Assume that you are a guy, and one day you wake up, physically altered in that you appear to be female (enlarged breasts, higher voice, even female hormones and its all different down there). Would you still consider yourself a man? I think many men would since they still think like a man, and act like a man, and to them it would seem perfectly reasonable to even call themselves a man.
The problem is, the whole female body thing would get in the way of a lot of daily activities. You're going to get a lot of strange looks if, for instance, you try to use the mens room. There is also the issue that you would no find your own body unattractive (nay repulsive) and that would only make your life more difficult. That's gender dysphoria.
For any of this to make sense we have to start with the assumption that gender identity is independent from sex organs you are born with, but that has been backed up by a variety of psychological studies and is the primary accepted interpretation. So it isn't believe that you should have been born the other gender. You ARE one, and now you just want to look like it and have other people recognize that reality
This is a good outline of gender dysphoria. Thanks for writing up.
There's an short bit of a clip on sexuality also describing some of the neurobiology of transsexuality:
On December 04 2012 12:46 Digitalis wrote: didnt even know it was considered one. idk why it would still be considered one if homosexuality was declassified as one in 1973, why did transgender take forever? i guess because it gets less press than 'gay'
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
That's more or less what I was about to post more or less. GID is no longer a disorder, Gender Dysphoria is. The difference being the general cure for Gender Dysphoria is Hormone treatments and Transitioning, whereas GID was not.
Also, YES, this is what it's getting at. The gender identity of the individual isn't the disorder--and they're never treating that. The depression, social anxiety, and psychological strain from having gender/body incongruity is what is the disorder.
On December 04 2012 12:46 Digitalis wrote: didnt even know it was considered one. idk why it would still be considered one if homosexuality was declassified as one in 1973, why did transgender take forever? i guess because it gets less press than 'gay'
It's generally not as accepted as homosexuality, even today. Just looking at the few posts in this thread is evidence enough, lots of people that are comfortable with gay people are still "weirded out" by trans people.
Anyway, it's good to hear, though I'm not sure what it'll actually mean. I'm not sure changing the DSM is going to change anybody's mind.
I am in this camp. It is nothing personal and I do not think that transgender should be considered a mental health issue, or that transgender people should face any discrimination. I simply do not understand transgender because I cannot relate to it. I can relate to homosexuality because everyone finds different things attractive, regardless of gender.
On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote: It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
Wanting to remove a perfectly healthy arm? Your example sounds like a mental disorder to me.
Mental disorder doesn't mean to have strange thoughts/perspectives. That would make a lot of the tea-partiers candidate for mental examination. /scoff
Joke aside, it's about functioning in a society. People are weird. Most people function with their weirdness, few don't. Mental health is to help find a way for these folks to function in day to day society.
People with mental disorders (ADD, depression, anxiety) are generally considered to be "disabled" in some way, i.e. they have an underlying clinical condition that makes it harder to them to function "normally" in society. Being trans doesn't qualify because there's nothing intrinsic about being transgendered that inhibits their ability to function; they encounter tons of obstacles in life, but most of them are because society isn't accepting of their condition.
Wanting to cut your own arm off has real and quantifiable effects on your ability to interact with society, and would thus qualify as a mental disorder (I'm sure there's something for self-harm)
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
I think it depends on who you ask. In the sociology class I'm in right now, the text says transgenderism (is that even a word?) is a disorder and cites the DSM
So, wanting to cut off an arm would have real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society? By that token, what about people who didn't want to lose their arm but did through war or something? I mean, the loss has real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society, right?
On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote: It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
Wanting to remove a perfectly healthy arm? Your example sounds like a mental disorder to me.
Mental disorder doesn't mean to have strange thoughts/perspectives. That would make a lot of the tea-partiers candidate for mental examination. /scoff
Joke aside, it's about functioning in a society. People are weird. Most people function with their weirdness, few don't. Mental health is to help find a way for these folks to function in day to day society.
People with mental disorders (ADD, depression, anxiety) are generally considered to be "disabled" in some way, i.e. they have an underlying clinical condition that makes it harder to them to function "normally" in society. Being trans doesn't qualify because there's nothing intrinsic about being transgendered that inhibits their ability to function; they encounter tons of obstacles in life, but most of them are because society isn't accepting of their condition.
Wanting to cut your own arm off has real and quantifiable effects on your ability to interact with society, and would thus qualify as a mental disorder (I'm sure there's something for self-harm)
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
I think it depends on who you ask. In the sociology class I'm in right now, the text says transgenderism (is that even a word?) is a disorder and cites the DSM
So, wanting to cut off an arm would have real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society? By that token, what about people who didn't want to lose their arm but did through war or something? I mean, the loss has real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society, right?
Yeah, and we call those people handicapped or disabled (I forget which is the PC term). I'm no psychiatrist, but in my understanding, a mental disorder is something going on in your brain that limits your functioning. Being trans doesn't qualify, wanting to disable yourself does.
I'm curious what type of issues was this classification causing for them? Specific examples please. I haven't heard of people being discriminated against solely based on being able to classify them with this disorder (or past disorder I guess). People may discriminate based off of their own beliefs, but in what instances were they being discriminated against legally? Just curious for actual examples.
On December 04 2012 12:40 DigiGnar wrote: It's mentally unhealthy not to trans if you know you're trans. Depression is unhealthy, so why not try to fix it?
It's like with people who feel they shouldn't have an arm. It's weird that they feel that, but they will be very depressed until that arm is gone. Some nations don't allow amputations that aren't life-threatening, so these people will cut the limb/whatever off without medical attention.
Wanting to remove a perfectly healthy arm? Your example sounds like a mental disorder to me.
Mental disorder doesn't mean to have strange thoughts/perspectives. That would make a lot of the tea-partiers candidate for mental examination. /scoff
Joke aside, it's about functioning in a society. People are weird. Most people function with their weirdness, few don't. Mental health is to help find a way for these folks to function in day to day society.
People with mental disorders (ADD, depression, anxiety) are generally considered to be "disabled" in some way, i.e. they have an underlying clinical condition that makes it harder to them to function "normally" in society. Being trans doesn't qualify because there's nothing intrinsic about being transgendered that inhibits their ability to function; they encounter tons of obstacles in life, but most of them are because society isn't accepting of their condition.
Wanting to cut your own arm off has real and quantifiable effects on your ability to interact with society, and would thus qualify as a mental disorder (I'm sure there's something for self-harm)
It hasn't been considered a mental disorder in practice for almost a decade. I remember discussions in my first year psych classes in 2005 using gender identity disorder as a prime example of why the DSM isn't the only reference book you should consult. I obviously can't speak for anywhere outside of my own experience but in my lifetime I've never seen someone actually type gender identity and reassignment as a disorder.
I think it depends on who you ask. In the sociology class I'm in right now, the text says transgenderism (is that even a word?) is a disorder and cites the DSM
So, wanting to cut off an arm would have real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society? By that token, what about people who didn't want to lose their arm but did through war or something? I mean, the loss has real and quantifiable effects on one's ability to interact with society, right?
Yeah, and we call those people handicapped or disabled (I forget which is the PC term). I'm no psychiatrist, but in my understanding, a mental disorder is something going on in your brain that limits your functioning. Being trans doesn't qualify, wanting to disable yourself does.
Wouldn't getting a sex-change be disabling in terms of reproduction?
On December 04 2012 12:21 Birdie wrote: If I understand it correctly, the APA is re-classifying it not because they no longer think it is a disorder, but rather to prevent prejudice. But I don't think it is particularly going to change anything much. It seems rather political rather than scientifically grounded, as they haven't presented any proof or clear reasoning as to the change other than a desire to help the mental health of transgenders by changing the name.
Pretty much, I mean it's the same thing with homosexuality, by the strict definition it IS a disorder, but political correctness demands it not be.
And for the record, mental disorders are just anything deviating from the majority, they aren't inherently debilitating or bad, they're just perceived that way by ignorant assholes.
On December 04 2012 13:13 ClanRH.TV wrote: I'm curious what type of issues was this classification causing for them? Specific examples please. I haven't heard of people being discriminated against solely based on being able to classify them with this disorder (or past disorder I guess). People may discriminate based off of their own beliefs, but in what instances were they being discriminated against legally? Just curious for actual examples.
Then you have direct laws banning transsexuals from having changes on markers regarding birth certificates/license. Further, a lot of marriage laws (mostly based on anti-gay marriage laws, while still defining the trans individual as their birth assigned-sex. This is one of the reasons my boyfriend and I still cannot get married in the state of Ohio)
As the OP said, the best to hope for is better insurance coverage, since Genital Reassignment Surgery for many individuals is arguably necessary, and yet still costs a good 20k+
On December 04 2012 12:21 Birdie wrote: If I understand it correctly, the APA is re-classifying it not because they no longer think it is a disorder, but rather to prevent prejudice. But I don't think it is particularly going to change anything much. It seems rather political rather than scientifically grounded, as they haven't presented any proof or clear reasoning as to the change other than a desire to help the mental health of transgenders by changing the name.
Pretty much, I mean it's the same thing with homosexuality, by the strict definition it IS a disorder, but political correctness demands it not be.
And for the record, mental disorders are just anything deviating from the majority, they aren't inherently debilitating or bad, they're just perceived that way by ignorant assholes.
I think they have to have a negative effect, too, otherwise anyone who's above average intelligence would have a mental disorder.
Wouldn't getting a sex-change be disabling in terms of reproduction?
Yes, but we don't consider people who are infertile disabled. It doesn't limit your ability to be a parent, it just means you can't get someone pregnant or get pregnant. I know it's a somewhat arbitrary distinction, but I would argue that it's fair: not being able to have a "natural" child isn't really a huge deal in modern society.
On December 04 2012 12:26 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Well, believing you should have been born another gender or paying large sums of money on surgery and pills to mutate your body into something it's not to make you happy seems mentally unhealthy to me.
Preparing for wave of angry straw liberals.
Haven't there been studies that show the sexually dimorphic brain structures of transgender individuals more closely resemble that of their preferred sex rather than their birth sex? I don't think its so much about "making themselves happy" in the conventional sense (i.e. "I want to get rich so I can be happy" or "Getting a new shirt (or new genetalia) would make me happy") but rather a basic incongruence in their self-identification. Dunno just my thoughts. Your comment seems rather callous I guess.
On December 04 2012 13:19 Waxangel wrote: LIGHT THE KWARK SIGNAL
yay more bans ^_^
I may be out of place in saying this given that I'm somewhat new, but you might want to go easy on the bans. While there is likely going to be a lot of trolling, there are many people that are simply misinformed about these kind of things. If they get banned for saying something they believe to just be true, they could get frustrated and stay even more entrenched in their views.
EPT
