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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
Suppose you (a cissexual male) wake up tomorrow in the same mind and body that you are in right now. You feel exactly as you always have. You drive to the store to do some shopping. While in the men's clothing section, someone says: "Excuse me, madam, you are in the wrong section." You use the restroom, they say: "It's against the law to use the wrong restroom. Please leave." You walk around in your male clothes, and people say things like: "You're not REALLY a man. Stop pretending you sick fuck."
I understand your intention with this example, but it's really a poor example. It is a very different experience to feel something since you were a child, and to suddenly wake up one day after years of experience and have things reversed on you. Our experiences do shape our expectations, desires, and responses to some degree.
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Kinda find it amusing a lot of this argument comes from a MTF perspective, arguing about mutilation etc.
There are FTM transgenders too. Is that a form of mutilation as well when you take out removal of the penis? Or again, are you simply doing the "Hurr, this makes no sense and is WRONG" type of thinking. If something doesn't make sense to you, that's not entirely unnatural or uncommon.
Again, treat trans people exactly the same as other people, but another fun thought:
Remember puberty and the teenage years, how awkward that was? Determining your sense of self, your sexual orientation, social status, adapting to societal pressures etc? (Hell, some of you may still be going through this) Now realize that trans people need to go through that while dealing with an incorrect sex, then need to go through it again while undergoing transformations to fit into their more correct self, that aren't without their own side effects. Self-actualization twice, and it's not easy the first time, let alone having to do it again.
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On December 05 2012 06:00 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +Suppose you (a cissexual male) wake up tomorrow in the same mind and body that you are in right now. You feel exactly as you always have. You drive to the store to do some shopping. While in the men's clothing section, someone says: "Excuse me, madam, you are in the wrong section." You use the restroom, they say: "It's against the law to use the wrong restroom. Please leave." You walk around in your male clothes, and people say things like: "You're not REALLY a man. Stop pretending you sick fuck." I understand your intention with this example, but it's really a poor example. It is a very different experience to feel something since you were a child, and to suddenly wake up one day after years of experience and have things reversed on you. Our experiences do shape our expectations, desires, and responses to some degree.
This example isn't meant to show you what it's like to be a transsexual (I might as well be trying to show you what it's like to be "black" or "asian"). You misunderstand the intent. The intent is to make you aware of your cissexual privilege.
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On December 05 2012 06:01 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:00 jdseemoreglass wrote:Suppose you (a cissexual male) wake up tomorrow in the same mind and body that you are in right now. You feel exactly as you always have. You drive to the store to do some shopping. While in the men's clothing section, someone says: "Excuse me, madam, you are in the wrong section." You use the restroom, they say: "It's against the law to use the wrong restroom. Please leave." You walk around in your male clothes, and people say things like: "You're not REALLY a man. Stop pretending you sick fuck." I understand your intention with this example, but it's really a poor example. It is a very different experience to feel something since you were a child, and to suddenly wake up one day after years of experience and have things reversed on you. Our experiences do shape our expectations, desires, and responses to some degree. This example isn't meant to show you what it's like to be a transsexual. You misunderstand the intent. The intent is to make you aware of your cissexual privilege.
It is the response to the privilege that matters though...
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I don't understand why this bothers so many people so much.
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On December 05 2012 05:47 Thorakh wrote:
It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form nor does it harm anyone (and therefore cannot be morally wrong).
(obviously the same applies for FtM)
You argument while well-meaning is narrow-minded. Of course, I am no one to forbid transsexual transition (nor do I want to) but it doesn't mean I should refrained to judge the actions of transsexuals based on my own personal philosophy. Philosophy is (or should) be a personal process about how you think people should live their life (id est something that applies in general)
On December 05 2012 05:53 shinosai wrote:
Ok, so that being said, one of the major problems in this thread is that there is a huge prevalence of cissexual privilege that most are not even aware they have. It's completely impossible to appeal to reason with you when you don't recognize your privilege, so hopefully, I can make you more aware. The examples in this thread so far (imagine if you were born a girl but still had the same mind) will not and cannot work, for the cissexual assumes that if he were born a girl, he would simply identify as a girl. Thus, a different sort of mindset is required.
Ahh I wondered when the aggressive argument of "you are biased and privileged so you are unable to understand my situation" would make an appearance. It was foolish of me to think someone would not used that trope. I don't like to discuss with people who discriminate me based on who I am (even though they don't know what I think) while trying to defend their rights not to be treated like that. HYPOCRISY !
PS : That's why I said people from the LGBT community were as bigoted and obtuse as everyone else. I have to leave this thread before I go all emo and start shitting everything up. But the argument you used is pathetic and you should be ashamed.
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Ahh I wondered when the aggressive argument of "you are biased and privileged so you are unable to understand my situation" would make an appearance. It was foolish of me to think someone would not used that trope. I don't like to discuss with people who discriminate me based on who I am (even though they don't know what I think) while trying to defend their rights not to be treated like that. HYPOCRISY !
Not a very good argument, since I was trying to make you recognize your privilege so that you could understand the situation. What you're doing is attacking a strawman.
You certainly CAN understand the situation (although you can never know what it's like to be a trans, anymore than knowing what it's like to be an octopus or an asian or a black - but that doesn't mean you can't have ANY understanding). Yes, you can understand. That's why I wrote that post.
edit: It should be added, though, that you cannot understand if you do not recognize your own frame of reference. Much like science is also limited in this sense (read Kuhn sometime to learn about how scientific science is)
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On December 05 2012 05:26 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:50 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:42 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? behavior changes with hormones (among other things). human beings were acting a certain way before they could articulate it. or, labels were already there before people learned to utter them. Edit: you're arguing about why would i call a tree a tree, or i don't get it. in the end it doesn't really mater how you call it but you have to call it something 'cause its already there/it exists. No, this has nothing to do with trees, as trees play no active role in their own identification. Like I've already said, a major component of gender deconstruction is the idea individuals have the right to be labeled in accordance with their own gender identification or lack there of, not in strict adherence to outdated concepts of female and male appearance. i was talking about the root of the issue or the place it all started so to speak, but you talk about the definitions people made up for other different people, to put it somehow generally. those are only theoretical constructs with no innate value to the person whom you're categorizing as such. ps: i've no dea how rights fit into all of this. legal rights?, to be called "names"?. Show nested quote +If a person with a penis feels like a woman and wants to be referred to as such, that is their right, something previously considered taboo. would that mean that before i could address to someone, anyone, i should skip past the appearances and straight up ask them if they desire to be talked to as if he/she was feeling the other way arround?. sounds like a lot of hassle just for ... theory sake.
Last time I checked, striking up a conversation with someone generally doesn't require knowing their gender. Unless you're propositioning them for a sexual/romantic relationship, what you have to say should be appropriate whether they're male or female. And if it isn't... that's a personal problem you need to correct in general. You shouldn't speak significantly differently to men or women. So you shouldn't be needing to ask someone what their gender is either way.
Let's say you meet someone. This person looks more-or-less male; no noticeable breasts, their voice is borderline, and their hair is cut short. If you then refer to this person as "he", but the person corrects you and tells you that she's female... would you actually argue with them? Would you ask them to drop their pants on the spot and show proof of vagina? Or would you simply accept it, maybe apologize for the error, and move on?
How would this situation be any different if they actually had a penis at that moment? Unless of course you would be so crass as to ask them to drop trou and prove their sex.
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On December 05 2012 06:08 Otolia wrote:
Ahh I wondered when the aggressive argument of "you are biased and privileged so you are unable to understand my situation" would make an appearance. It was foolish of me to think someone would not used that trope. I don't like to discuss with people who discriminate me based on who I am (even though they don't know what I think) while trying to defend their rights not to be treated like that. HYPOCRISY !.
Lolwut? I do not know any trans people who specifically discriminate against cis people. Indeed, the majority of my friends and acquaintances are cisgender. Informing someone that they have privilege in a social dynamic is not discrimination. If somebody told me that I had white privilege or able-bodied privilege, I would recognize that as true, and I wouldn't feel discriminated against in the slightest. All of my cisgender friends recognize their cis privilege just as much as I do.
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On December 05 2012 05:53 shinosai wrote:
A final point, specifically to the people that say we must identify men and women based on their chromosomes or their genitalia: This completely ignores the fact that whether we are treated as a man or woman has absolutely nothing to do with these things. No one walks around with their birth certificates, and I am willing to bet that not a single fucking person in this thread has ever had their chromosomes examined (and if they did, they might get a surprising result, like xxy). Nor do we treat people as women or men based on their primary sexual characteristics (penis or vagina) at first glance. Rather, 99% of the reason we treat someone as a man or woman is based on an instantaneous evaluation of their secondary characteristics. To claim anything else is ad hoc reasoning applied after the fact.
We judge based on the information available. People rarely expose their genitals for confirmation. (However, if you drop your pants and waggle your dick, people will stop assuming your long hair, soft voice, and slight build mean you're a woman.)
On December 05 2012 06:19 NicolBolas wrote:
Let's say you meet someone. This person looks more-or-less male; no noticeable breasts, their voice is borderline, and their hair is cut short. If you then refer to this person as "he", but the person corrects you and tells you that she's female... would you actually argue with them? Would you ask them to drop their pants on the spot and show proof of vagina? Or would you simply accept it, maybe apologize for the error, and move on?
You would likely assume that the person is telling the truth. When she tells you she's female, you revise your interpretation of her physical state.
How would this situation be any different if they actually had a penis at that moment?
It wouldn't much matter, but it would mean the person is question is deliberately misleading you. (Yes, even if that person uses gender pronouns to mean identity rather than sex. No one is so ignorant as to think that's universal terminology.)
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I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic.
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On December 05 2012 06:27 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:08 Otolia wrote:
Ahh I wondered when the aggressive argument of "you are biased and privileged so you are unable to understand my situation" would make an appearance. It was foolish of me to think someone would not used that trope. I don't like to discuss with people who discriminate me based on who I am (even though they don't know what I think) while trying to defend their rights not to be treated like that. HYPOCRISY !. Lolwut? I do not know any trans people who specifically discriminate against cis people. Indeed, the majority of my friends and acquaintances are cisgender. Informing someone that they have privilege in a social dynamic is not discrimination. If somebody told me that I had white privilege or able-bodied privilege, I would recognize that as true, and I wouldn't feel discriminated against in the slightest. All of my cisgender friends recognize their cis privilege just as much as I do.
I think his point is that often people use privilege to dismiss someone's statements or arguments, or to suggest they are naive, ignorant, what have you. I wouldn't call that discrimination though, just stereotyping or generalizing.
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It wouldn't much matter, but it would mean the person is question is deliberately misleading you. (Yes, even if that person uses gender pronouns to mean identity rather than sex. No one is so ignorant as to think that's universal terminology.)
And if they had a neo-vagina (artifically constructed thru srs), would they still be misleading you?
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United States42970 Posts
On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic.
I am shortsighted. I'm not blind without glasses but my eyes don't work the way they should. It's a simple enough fix though, I am prescribed glasses and am judged as being no different from anyone else. Even presumptions regarding my eyesight don't really come into play because if I'm obviously wearing my glasses then I can see so there is no issue. I believe transgender people would like to be viewed in the same manner. Rather than being characterised as being mentally ill for feeling the way they I believe they would rather it was seen as comparable to being shortsighted, something has gone wrong with the body but it can be fixed and once it has been then there should be no assumption that they're any different from anyone else.
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On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic.
Well, the problem is that eventually transgender people transition. And at this point their brain and genetics do align for the most part. So once we transition we don't have a "disorder" anymore. And we don't need therapy or anything like that, obviously.
As for the "normal" thing - again you have to kind of take into account your frame of reference. I don't even know what you mean by that word. Do you mean, outside of the majority? Because I know there are some super geniuses like Stephen Hawking that have very not "normal" brain activity in the sense that most people are of a rather average intelligence. So it can't be that. Perhaps you mean, "unnatural" - but well, I don't know what that means, either. It's a very vague and ambiguous term that's been used to attack the queer community, but it's not all that clear why something being "unnatural" should also have a negative ethical value attached to it.
Hope my post helped some.
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On December 05 2012 06:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic. I am shortsighted. I'm not blind without glasses but my eyes don't work the way they should. It's a simple enough fix though, I am prescribed glasses and am judged as being no different from anyone else. Even presumptions regarding my eyesight don't really come into play because if I'm obviously wearing my glasses then I can see so there is no issue. I believe transgender people would like to be viewed in the same manner. Rather than being characterised as being mentally ill for feeling the way they I believe they would rather it was seen as comparable to being shortsighted, something has gone wrong with the body but it can be fixed and once it has been then there should be no assumption that they're any different from anyone else.
Wait, good sir, you failed to take it the extra step, and ask if people who get Laser Eye Correction are mentally ill for wanting to surgically mutilate their body to match their belief of how it should work.
Totally would have made it into the perfect analogy.
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On December 05 2012 06:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic. I am shortsighted. I'm not blind without glasses but my eyes don't work the way they should. It's a simple enough fix though, I am prescribed glasses and am judged as being no different from anyone else. Even presumptions regarding my eyesight don't really come into play because if I'm obviously wearing my glasses then I can see so there is no issue. I believe transgender people would like to be viewed in the same manner. Rather than being characterised as being mentally ill for feeling the way they I believe they would rather it was seen as comparable to being shortsighted, something has gone wrong with the body but it can be fixed and once it has been then there should be no assumption that they're any different from anyone else.
Yes, that is certainly how they feel. But people will get caught up on the fact that problems with vision are something physical, while problems with gender are psychological or perhaps neurological. You could argue that neurological is also simply physical... but the average person sees a dichotomy there.
We classify some thoughts as disorders and some thoughts as not disorders, and people are looking for the distinguishing characteristics here. In my mind, the distinguishing characteristic is primarily whether we have any power to change it or not. Once we decide something is too innate and can't be resolved, we intend to conform society into minimizing the harm caused by ignorance, assuming there is sufficient social acceptance already to do so.
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United States42970 Posts
On December 05 2012 06:49 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:43 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic. I am shortsighted. I'm not blind without glasses but my eyes don't work the way they should. It's a simple enough fix though, I am prescribed glasses and am judged as being no different from anyone else. Even presumptions regarding my eyesight don't really come into play because if I'm obviously wearing my glasses then I can see so there is no issue. I believe transgender people would like to be viewed in the same manner. Rather than being characterised as being mentally ill for feeling the way they I believe they would rather it was seen as comparable to being shortsighted, something has gone wrong with the body but it can be fixed and once it has been then there should be no assumption that they're any different from anyone else. Yes, that is certainly how they feel. But people will get caught up on the fact that problems with vision are something physical, while problems with gender are psychological or perhaps neurological.
If the issue they're having is that they know that their gender is female but they physically have a penis then how is that not a physical problem? Me being shortsighted is just muscles in the eyes being badly calibrated, that's way less of a physical problem than having a penis in my eye would be.
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On December 05 2012 06:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 06:49 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 05 2012 06:43 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2012 06:35 HumpingHydra wrote:
I hope this thread continues because as of right now I feel misinformed.
How can someone who possesses genes that are of one sex, and had those genes play a fundamental role in developing their brain, decide with their brain that they were incorrectly assigned a combination of X and Y chromosomes? I feel like this is a definition of disorder? I mean the word literally means not in order... Their brain and genetics don't align. Are transgenders offended by the word disorder? I feel quite strongly that if anything is not functioning correctly, it is probibally the brain. There are so many factors that affect people as they develop that could skew "normal" functioning of the brain that I assume that the brain has developed in a way that isn't "normal". This being said, I don't care at all what the transgender people do, whether they change or not... but I don't understand why it wouldn't be classified as a disorder.
Again, I hope to gain a little more insight as to how everyone else feels. Its surely not a simple topic. I am shortsighted. I'm not blind without glasses but my eyes don't work the way they should. It's a simple enough fix though, I am prescribed glasses and am judged as being no different from anyone else. Even presumptions regarding my eyesight don't really come into play because if I'm obviously wearing my glasses then I can see so there is no issue. I believe transgender people would like to be viewed in the same manner. Rather than being characterised as being mentally ill for feeling the way they I believe they would rather it was seen as comparable to being shortsighted, something has gone wrong with the body but it can be fixed and once it has been then there should be no assumption that they're any different from anyone else. Yes, that is certainly how they feel. But people will get caught up on the fact that problems with vision are something physical, while problems with gender are psychological or perhaps neurological. If the issue they're having is that they know that their gender is female but they physically have a penis then how is that not a physical problem? Me being shortsighted is just muscles in the eyes being badly calibrated, that's way less of a physical problem than having a penis in my eye would be.
Because the penis itself is not causing harm, it is the psychological reaction to the penis.
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On December 05 2012 05:50 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:40 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 05:36 Thurken wrote:On December 05 2012 05:23 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 05:13 Thurken wrote:
If I'm a male and I think I am a female, am I mentally ill? Therein lies your confusion. A transwoman (classified as male at birth identifies as female) IS female, she just was born with a penis. Gender is not what is between your legs, and it isn't a matter of thinking you are something that you aren't. They are the gender they identify with, they just want other people to recognize them as such. How hard would it be to be a guy if you were treated like a girl everywhere you went based on your appearance. Not to mention that these individuals can become quite depressed because of the incongruence between their body and their identified gender. Calling it a disorder to deny their identity in the first place. But then, can this deconstruction of gender be applied to your age, your skin color, or your ethnicity? If not, why? Well, things like your age and skin color are concretely true, so you can't say you're 18 if you were born 30 years ago. The difference is that you can't simply look at someone (or their genes) and tell what gender they are. At birth they are assigned a gender based on their genitalia, but that is not always a good classification. Someone can be female and have a penis whereas they could not be 18 and be born 30 years ago. Once again you conflate sex and gender, which simple isn't the case. You are doing the same exact thing than him, you shouldn't act like this. Here is a more correct version of what you wrote : At birth they are assigned a sex based on their genitalia, but that is not always what they feel about themselves. Someone could consider themselves of the women gender and have a penis (biological sex). PS : Just because you are a member of the LGBT community doesn't mean you know the underlying theory of gender and its relation to psychology, biology and neurology.
Sorry if I misstated something, but I can't tell the difference between your statement and mine. Pehaps you could explain more? Also when did I say I was a member of the LGBT community? All that I know about any kinds of underlying theory is stuff that has been explained to me by others that I have met on the internet. I don't claim to have some intimate knowledge of these things I'm just trying to explain them (in a basic way) as they were explained to me to help others understand.
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