|
On September 25 2012 18:56 tomatriedes wrote:Too many males in China and not enough females (because of confucian son preference and sex-selctive abortions) means these sort of social problems and nationalism is just going to get worse and worse- all that extra testosterone and frustration has to be directed somewhere. Show nested quote +By 2030, projections suggest that more than 25% of Chinese men in their late 30s will never have married...
... This potential new class of single, frustrated men will number in the tens of millions in 2030. http://www.forbes.com/sites/china/2011/05/13/chinas-growing-problem-of-too-many-single-men/
What does this have to do with island dispute? Please keep on the subject.
|
China issued the "Diaoyu Islands are China's inherent territory" white paper
http://www.6park.com/news/messages/94182.html
for these who are interested. The article is written in Chinese. You need to use translate.google.com or google chrom to translate back to english.
|
On September 25 2012 15:47 GT350 wrote:
China is really getting stronger and stronger that it is engaging in moral victories and other non military wars to assert its dominance
Moral victories wtf
They might look strong internationally, but within its own borders the countrymen who are educated actually know what is going on.
Chinese people hate Japanese people because of education, this part we can all understand. A communist country would first try to brainwash all its citizen into absolute love and loyalty to their own country, and it just so happens that they have this dumb common cause that happened 80 years ago to milk from.
Yes you fucking heard me right. Im calling the Nanjing Massacre dumb.
Its dumb when you compare it to all the atrocities the Chinese have done on itself, whether it be the Boxer rebellion, or the Taiping rebellion that resulted in itself, according to wiki, 20-40 million dead, and anyone who studied half a crock of history regarding that era would realize that the rebellion worked so well because their armies morale was kept really really high....and how did they do that? Because their commanders basically told them that whatever they take is theirs. Whatever city, food, jewely, men, women, children etc etc etc
Nanjing Massacre is a fucking joke compared to this, Its just that history books in China dont tend to teach them about their own atrocities and decided to brand Japan as a scapegoat to arouse loyalty and love for their own country....bullshit.
None of the students in my Uni actually believe in half of this shit. I dont even know which uni OP's friend goes too, but I can tell you that the general educated population believes this is dumb as hell too.
If anyone actually followed a bit of Chinese history- you'll know it works in Dynasties, in which each ruling faction starts out really strong, then eventually dies out due to gov corruption and public unrest. The Chinese gov knows this, thats why they own the media and try as hard to shut down the spread of hundreds of protests happening everywhere.
Im just half waiting for this to happen lol.
|
On September 26 2012 00:55 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 15:47 GT350 wrote:
China is really getting stronger and stronger that it is engaging in moral victories and other non military wars to assert its dominance Moral victories wtf They might look strong internationally, but within its own borders the countrymen who are educated actually know wtf is going on. Chinese people hate Japanese people because of education, this part we can all understand. A communist country would first try to brainwash all its citizen into absolute love and loyalty to their own country, and it just so happens that they have this dumb common cause to banner under that happened 80 years ago. Yes you fucking heard me right. Im calling the Nanjing Massacre dumb. Its dumb when you compare it to all the atrocities the Chinese have done on itself, whether it be the Boxer rebellion, or the one right before (forgot the name) that resulted, according to wiki, 20-40 million dead, and anyone who studied half a crock of history regarding that era would realize that the rebellion worked so well because their armies morale was kept really really high....and how did they do that? Because their commanders basically told them that whatever they take is theirs. Whatever city, food, jewely, women and children etc etc etc Nanjing Massacre is a fucking joke compared to this, Its just that history books in China dont tend to teach them about their own atrocities and decided to brand Japan as a scapegoat to arouse loyalty and love for their own country....bullshit. None of the students in my Uni actually believe in half of this shit. I dont even know which uni OP's friend goes too, but I can tell you that the general educated population believes this is dumb as hell too.
This may be true for some people. On the other hand I know of university educated people that refuse to watch Anime only because its from Japan...
|
On September 26 2012 00:58 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 00:55 padfoota wrote:On September 25 2012 15:47 GT350 wrote:
China is really getting stronger and stronger that it is engaging in moral victories and other non military wars to assert its dominance Moral victories wtf They might look strong internationally, but within its own borders the countrymen who are educated actually know wtf is going on. Chinese people hate Japanese people because of education, this part we can all understand. A communist country would first try to brainwash all its citizen into absolute love and loyalty to their own country, and it just so happens that they have this dumb common cause to banner under that happened 80 years ago. Yes you fucking heard me right. Im calling the Nanjing Massacre dumb. Its dumb when you compare it to all the atrocities the Chinese have done on itself, whether it be the Boxer rebellion, or the one right before (forgot the name) that resulted, according to wiki, 20-40 million dead, and anyone who studied half a crock of history regarding that era would realize that the rebellion worked so well because their armies morale was kept really really high....and how did they do that? Because their commanders basically told them that whatever they take is theirs. Whatever city, food, jewely, women and children etc etc etc Nanjing Massacre is a fucking joke compared to this, Its just that history books in China dont tend to teach them about their own atrocities and decided to brand Japan as a scapegoat to arouse loyalty and love for their own country....bullshit. None of the students in my Uni actually believe in half of this shit. I dont even know which uni OP's friend goes too, but I can tell you that the general educated population believes this is dumb as hell too. This may be true for some people. On the other hand I know of university educated people that refuse to watch Anime only because its from Japan...
Thats just really really dumb :/
The otaku culture in China isnt exactly small either, you get heavy hints of it everywhere on the internet, and Japan is the best source for whatever it is they feed on.
At the end of the day I can only blame brainwashing, and while religious extremist are a problem in the western world, brainwashing from the government is a problem here.
|
The real problem in the western world is idiocracy. Btw, as much as in every other part of the world. Including china and japan.
|
On September 26 2012 00:55 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 15:47 GT350 wrote:
China is really getting stronger and stronger that it is engaging in moral victories and other non military wars to assert its dominance Moral victories wtf They might look strong internationally, but within its own borders the countrymen who are educated actually know what is going on. Chinese people hate Japanese people because of education, this part we can all understand. A communist country would first try to brainwash all its citizen into absolute love and loyalty to their own country, and it just so happens that they have this dumb common cause that happened 80 years ago to milk from. Yes you fucking heard me right. Im calling the Nanjing Massacre dumb. Its dumb when you compare it to all the atrocities the Chinese have done on itself, whether it be the Boxer rebellion, or the Taiping rebellion that resulted in itself, according to wiki, 20-40 million dead, and anyone who studied half a crock of history regarding that era would realize that the rebellion worked so well because their armies morale was kept really really high....and how did they do that? Because their commanders basically told them that whatever they take is theirs. Whatever city, food, jewely, men, women, children etc etc etc Nanjing Massacre is a fucking joke compared to this, Its just that history books in China dont tend to teach them about their own atrocities and decided to brand Japan as a scapegoat to arouse loyalty and love for their own country....bullshit. None of the students in my Uni actually believe in half of this shit. I dont even know which uni OP's friend goes too, but I can tell you that the general educated population believes this is dumb as hell too. If anyone actually followed a bit of Chinese history- you'll know it works in Dynasties, in which each ruling faction starts out really strong, then eventually dies out due to gov corruption and public unrest. The Chinese gov knows this, thats why they own the media and try as hard to shut down the spread of hundreds of protests happening everywhere. Im just half waiting for this to happen lol.
Do you actually go to a Chinese uni inside China? Because it is quite different to all my Chinese friends who studied in Chinese high school or uni.
Brain washing materials do exist, Chinese history textbooks are biased. But the teachers might not. And to your surprise, they do actually speak out about other things that the textbooks do not mention.
My GF for example, the history teacher told the whole class there are much more to the event of 4th june and mentioned where they can find more information about it.
(for example, they censor the words resembles 4th june, but there are quite a lot of substitution words to replace it)
It is wrong to say Nanjing Massacre is dumb compared to other events you mentioned.
Nanjing Massacre is an invasion from foreign country trying to establish colonies.
Those other events are revolution and rebellions which, if you see it in another way, strong representation of people's will to change the country's system.
Brain washing stuff usually are not all false, the numbers might be false, the effectiveness of some achievements might be overstated, but to say they are not to be believed at all is just naive thinking.
It's funny that although you live in Taiwan, your understanding of the current Chinese society seems to be very low...
|
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
|
On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute.
|
On September 26 2012 01:57 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute.
I know that history explains why this dispute is so intense, but I am asking why people are using these aspects of history to protest instead of using relevant information like treaties and such.
|
On September 26 2012 02:02 Shardz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 01:57 ShadeR wrote:On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute. I know that history explains why this dispute is so intense, but I am asking why people are using these aspects of history to protest instead of using relevant information like treaties and such.
I suppose it's because the tinders have been sitting there for 70 years and the islands are the spark. Or whatever fancy analogy floats your boat. (final straw that broke the camels back)
|
so far, did anythign change for the week?
|
On September 26 2012 02:09 xgtx wrote:
so far, did anythign change for the week?
Taiwan got involved when they realized they had to act not to lose their claim on islands.
As far as I can tell (Im not in China) the protests have calmed down but the underlying problem is still there and it proboably wont get resolved any time soon.
|
On September 26 2012 01:57 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute.
On top this quote, when discussing territory possession, you have to look at history. There's nothing else to look at when both nations claim the island as their own.
For example, if somehow magically all Canadian sources claim that Alaska is a Canadian territory, there would be a discrepancy with sources from the USA. Then you would look back at history and find that Alaska has never been claimed by Canada and was sold to the US by the Soviets. And if there's no discrepancy about that, then it is decided.
But it isn't as simple for this case as mentioned throughout this thread.
As most sources say, the US claimed the islands and gave it to Japan. Maybe they should have given it to China since it was originally Chinese, but that's not what happened. They could step in, flex some muscles and enforce that it os Japanese and maybe avoid this kind of tension (although inevitable). But United States doesn't profit from a distant ally owning these islands. USA however does profit from Asian countries quarreling with each other and getting into problems. If China and Japan worsen relations to completely hostile towards each other like some nations in the middle east where they stop trade, they are forced to seek USA and other nations for compensating the exports/imports.
|
japan-us holds joint island defense exercise in guam.
taiwan and japan enjoys some water fight
first carrier has arrived for china
|
On September 26 2012 02:23 Louis8k8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 01:57 ShadeR wrote:On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute. On top this quote, when discussing territory possession, you have to look at history. There's nothing else to look at when both nations claim the island as their own. For example, if somehow magically all Canadian sources claim that Alaska is a Canadian territory, there would be a discrepancy with sources from the USA. Then you would look back at history and find that Alaska has never been claimed by Canada and was sold to the US by the Soviets. And if there's no discrepancy about that, then it is decided. But it isn't as simple for this case as mentioned throughout this thread. As most sources say, the US claimed the islands and gave it to Japan. Maybe they should have given it to China since it was originally Chinese, but that's not what happened. They could step in, flex some muscles and enforce that it os Japanese and maybe avoid this kind of tension (although inevitable). But United States doesn't profit from a distant ally owning these islands. USA however does profit from Asian countries quarreling with each other and getting into problems. If China and Japan worsen relations to completely hostile towards each other like some nations in the middle east where they stop trade, they are forced to seek USA and other nations for compensating the exports/imports.
I have to point out to you that there is no evidence that they even were Chinese to begin with. As far as I understand they didnt even have a Chinese name until fairly recently. America is proboably the country that stands to lose the most from this conflict. They will have to pick a side eventually and thats going to create tensions. Doing nothing is only going to work so long if they want to retain their influence in Asia.
|
On September 26 2012 02:02 Shardz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 01:57 ShadeR wrote:On September 26 2012 01:54 Shardz wrote:
I don't understand how trying to discredit the Japanese or Chinese with what happened to them or what they did in the past has anything to do with the situation at hand.
Lets say that Japan is actually manipulating the education system and not letting their people know how bad Japan has treated China in the past. (Evidence suggested that this is true).
Why does this keep coming up? Many countries rewrite the history books to make themselves look better all the time, not to say that this is relevant to the situation too, but its true.
This is a dispute about the islands, not about how Japan has watered down their war crimes in WW2 or how they didn't compensate to China enough, its about who the Islands actually belong to. Historical grudges shouldn't have a part in who gets the islands. Xelnaga Empire has brought up MULTIPLE times (sorry if I got the name wrong) that Japan is wrong because they are downplaying what they actually did in WW2 and their education system is flawed. But this actually has nothing to do with the island dispute.
I understand that this is a thread about the anti-Japan protests, but I think that this seems to get at the fact that the anti-Japan protests seem to be extremely unjustified given that this is supposed to be related to the island dispute. (excuse me for not reading every page of this thread and not spending hours and hours of research on the topic).
Because history and present attitude explains the vitriolic nature of the dispute. I know that history explains why this dispute is so intense, but I am asking why people are using these aspects of history to protest instead of using relevant information like treaties and such.
because it is complicated.
China lost a war against japan and had to sign an unfair treaty that gives taiwan and nearby islands to japan.
Then after ww2, the islands were supposed to go back to China's control.
But USA assigned that island to Japan's ruling and China saw this signing of treaty of san fransico as a violation of Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Proclamation.
the biggest problem during that signing of the treaty is the US. It had been showing a lot of interest in putting more military presence in Japan and acted against the will of Cairo Declaration which the aim is to solve the peace terms together, including China, USSR etc. US drafted, editted much of the treaty on its own in violation of the Cairo Declaration, at the end, the signing of the treaty did not invite China
A few months later, the territories got expanded and this island is put into Japan's control.
So the problem is, the treaty of san fransico was signed by 48 countries, only 3countries did not sign, despite many raised the concerned over some of the treaty terms. Was it really effective since the Cairo Declaration and Potsdam Proclamation were violated?
The original ownership is also complicated as well.
By international law, since China first discovered the island, put an effective fishing govern system onto it, it should belong to China and in Ming dynasty, the island is listed into China's protection zone.
Japan claimed that the island is no of any country govern after several years of inspection and claimed it is theirs, despite their maps from several hundred years before this claim used Chinese name and used the same colour as China.
|
On September 25 2012 09:38 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +He's not alone. And he's right. The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well. Directed at someone called Taku. Your reading comprehension fails you yet again, for the last time, get your head out of whereever you stuck it in and read ffs, i even quoted myself on this very page regarding your "insulting koreans and chinese for their opinions".
Your reading comprehension is what is failing. You said that 'The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well' in response to Taku, who was quoting Shady Sands, who said 'I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious' about the 'proposals' you are referring to. Ergo, you 'would tell' Shady Sands to 'fuck off.'
I hate to be pedantic about this, given that I don't think English is your first language, but that's also a lesson for you - don't resort to profanity when English is not your first language.
Stop trying to force a side on me, because i disagree with what you say. You see, there are people out there which dont go apeshit over this "crisis", but still think that both sides are wrong. As i said many times up until now. The fact that you focus on the one statement that you actually could use to attack just shows that you deliberately try to push me into a corner in which i dont belong. Btw, earlier in the thread i was "protecting" the chinese view, because up until that point, there was alot of, and now brace yourself: reason. As was the chinese guy (forgot the name) i quoted and commended him on his reasonable view. You see, a chinese guy disagreed with what Shady Sands said. Which is reasonable. And to be brutally honest, it gets really tiresome to explain to you over and over again, what my view on all that is. For one last time, and i sincerly hope that you get it now.
Just because a guy is Chinese does not make his views pro-Chinese, nor contra-Japan. I also don't know what you think you were protecting because earlier in the thread you had the exact same view that you do now.
I quote:
Actually (did not see that anywhere in the thread), China started, uhm.. "Säbelrasseln", like "saber-rattling" (dont really know if it means the same in english). There was a big military exercise over the last days in the east-chinese sea, including firing 40 rockets from ships, The exercise included anti-submarine warfare, anti-air and anti-rocket, rocket-warfare (attacks) and more. Also it wasn't something with a schedule, they simulated a real battlefield-situation. Overall more than 100 "battle platforms" (guess they mean weaponsystems with that) were used.
I can't find an english source for that, just a german one. click for german source :/
Pretty provocative in my eyes.
Edit: to be clear, i saw about that in news (TV), and googled for a source in the web, that was the first one showing up. Dont pinpoint me on that socialistic stuff, please.
Well, dont forget what germany had to apologize for. Nanking was horrible, we won't discuss that fact, but you need to put it in relation with the holocaust. And please, dont try to compare that, or tell me that no matter how big the mistake was, blabla - otherwise i would like to see what the US did for compensation/apology in My Lai, or the two (unnecessary) nukes. Oh, and of course russia, for what they did in Berlin after they won the war.
Won't happen, it actually can't happen. Theres a completely different culture involved (for all these atrocities btw), you can't seriously tell a japanese politician "yeah you need to humiliate yourself and your country", and really think its realistic. Its actually idiotic (not meant personal). Same for the US, justifiying nukes with shallow comments like "saved alot of soldiers lifes" (which is not true, as historians pointed out).
Don't get me wrong, im not defending what japan did at any point in history, but it actually pisses me off that people in an internet forum think that humiliation of politicians, the whole country and the emperor etc will even things out. It will cost lives, nothing else, and all of asia would still think bad of japan (as it is in germany btw, you dont want to know how many times i get called nazi, especially from US fellas).
Yeah. I can see japanese apologizing to other japanese. But what you are proposing is not from one individual to another. You dont lose your "national pride" (and japan is pretty, uhm.. "collective-thinking"? Apologize for the bad wording, guess you know what i mean by that).
I actually read alot of stuff about japanese culture, especially regarding the time right after WW2 (less war-stuff, more about the depression and stuff like that). Alot of soldiers commited suicide (not Kamikaze) after hearing that japan surrendered. Not because the personal honor was tainted, but the honor of nippon. What you are proposing is actually not honoring the dead, but humiliating the living, im sorry.
In fact, you were the one who started that whole derail about apologies in Japanese culture and how it's so humiliating for the Japanese to apologize to the Chinese due to national pride that asking them to do it is ridiculous. But you are correct to say that you are not contra-Chinese, because you prefer to be contra-US, instead:
Well, you want to know my position? Im german. We have good relationships with china. Actually, germany has the best relationship to china of all EU-countries. China is one of our biggest trading partners (might even be the biggest one, dunno 100%), I like the direction china is headed (technology-wise mostly), they are not as cowardly as the US or the EU (including germany).
Also, they will get further ahead in the future, with the introduction of the first commercial MSRs for example. To me it looks like china is doing alot right, whereas the EU and US doing alot of stuff wrong. I do not really know if i want china to "run the world", but, and now you need to brace yourself for another "personal attack", they actually would need to prove that they're worse than the US. Because i dont think that the US did a good job with that (but thats another topic).
Did I misquote you again?
Im not "pro-japan". Im not "pro-china". Im not "contra-japan". Im not "contra-china". Did you get it? The fact of the matter is, for the last xx pages, alot of nationalism came up (and stupid stuff like the three demands), on which i disagreed. That does not make me agree to how japan handles stuff, it makes me, brace yourself again, disagree with these statements. Am i clear enough?
You are pro-Japan, whether you think so / not, because you tout the mentality that their national pride is of greater importance than mending relations with their neighbors, which is precisely what the nationalists in Japan believe. You call yourself a critic of nationalism, yet support the Japanese over an issue that comes down to national pride. In fact, you understand that it comes down to national pride - that's why earlier in the thread you brought up national pride for why Japan ought not to apologize.
It's difficult to take you at face value. I think the language barrier has a bit to do with it. But in general, you need to re-examine the biases behind all that you say, because you are far from what you think you are.
|
On September 26 2012 00:55 padfoota wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 15:47 GT350 wrote:
China is really getting stronger and stronger that it is engaging in moral victories and other non military wars to assert its dominance Yes you fucking heard me right. Im calling the Nanjing Massacre dumb. Its dumb when you compare it to all the atrocities the Chinese have done on itself, whether it be the Boxer rebellion, or the Taiping rebellion that resulted in itself, according to wiki, 20-40 million dead, and anyone who studied half a crock of history regarding that era would realize that the rebellion worked so well because their armies morale was kept really really high....and how did they do that? Because their commanders basically told them that whatever they take is theirs. Whatever city, food, jewely, men, women, children etc etc etc Nanjing Massacre is a fucking joke compared to this, Its just that history books in China dont tend to teach them about their own atrocities and decided to brand Japan as a scapegoat to
Not going to get into the rest of your post but your examples are quite horrible. It's obvious that the Chinese won't regard atrocities committed in the midst of civil wars in the same light as those committed by other countries. This is because when the Boxers and the Taipings lost those rebellions, their leaders and factions were annihilated. They no longer exist - not as a political faction and not as an organzational entity. Resentment against what no longer exists is useless.
|
On September 26 2012 03:51 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 09:38 m4inbrain wrote:He's not alone. And he's right. The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well. Directed at someone called Taku. Your reading comprehension fails you yet again, for the last time, get your head out of whereever you stuck it in and read ffs, i even quoted myself on this very page regarding your "insulting koreans and chinese for their opinions". Your reading comprehension is what is failing. You said that 'The proposals there are beyond stupid. Far beyond. If it is that what it takes to chill you people, i would tell you to fuck off as well' in response to Taku, who was quoting Shady Sands, who said 'I am (and the Chinese people are) perfectly serious' about the 'proposals' you are referring to. Ergo, you 'would tell' Shady Sands to 'fuck off.'
So basically, me saying a rhetorical "if xxx, i would xxx" is me telling someone to fuck off, even though i didn't even quote him directly? Yeah, i may have issues with the english language, but given the fact that A it would not take what he proposed, and B would not be directed at me (because you know, as a german i kinda don't have the chance to tell someone to fuck off in that issue).. You're smartass, and you can't admit that you quoted me wrong. As well as that other guy that accused me of calling all koreans dickheads (which you did as well).
Maybe stop trying to twist statements so they fit your "arguments", and take them for what they are.
I hate to be pedantic about this, given that I don't think English is your first language, but that's also a lesson for you - don't resort to profanity when English is not your first language.
Yep, im sure you hate to be pedantic. But thats another story, maybe later via PM - im too busy now.
I'll answer the rest later. You're right with one thing though, i do not like the US. Or better, the way they handle things (read: the gov). As does most of the rest of the world. We were forced into a war we didn't want to fight, based on a statement that wasn't true. I kinda have a grudge against that, because i went to war, got shot at. Because america went apeshit over WoMD which never existed (and knowingly so). But thats another topic. I said that china as "worldpolice" would need to prove to do worse than your country, and i stand by that fact.
Edit: oh wait, what? Chinese historybooks are tampered with? Is that actually true?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
