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On September 26 2012 16:48 NonFactor wrote:
I find it funny that I can recognize which of the American posters here are Korean / Chinese descent the way they post regarding this event. Nationalism is a powerful thing.
My 2 cents as an outsider currently in Japan and who will live in China in a few months: Shit is crazy and stupid. Sadly this is one of those issues that cant really be solved with everyone walking away happy. But I dont personally think anything major will blow out of this. Everyone has too much to lose over some small islands and right wingers.
I am 100% American. 6th generation, born and raised. Do you know why I don't support Japan on this matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan
"Possession of child pornography depicting real children is legal in Japan."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#Opposition
To Japan, all non-Japanese people are nothing more than sub-humans. Possibly the only reason why they made an alliance with germany during world war II was for the fact that both countries had the world pissed off at them and needed allies fast.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
then you should support nonconfrontational, non vulgar nationalistic, non stupid solutions to this conflict. but apparently it is not on the table for the relevant parties.
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On September 28 2012 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
then you should support nonconfrontational, non vulgar nationalistic, non stupid solutions to this conflict. but apparently it is not on the table for the relevant parties.
Your constant condescension in this thread doesn't quite make you the most brilliant example of a open-minded and enlightened individual in my eyes.
Nationalism exists as it does in these countries, it's a fact, how about we accept that and work with it instead of acting as if we are somehow above these human flaws.
Unfortunately, the situation has degenerated to a point where only time can heal these wounds in these countries imo.
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On September 28 2012 04:19 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:48 NonFactor wrote:
I find it funny that I can recognize which of the American posters here are Korean / Chinese descent the way they post regarding this event. Nationalism is a powerful thing.
My 2 cents as an outsider currently in Japan and who will live in China in a few months: Shit is crazy and stupid. Sadly this is one of those issues that cant really be solved with everyone walking away happy. But I dont personally think anything major will blow out of this. Everyone has too much to lose over some small islands and right wingers. I am 100% American. 6th generation, born and raised. Do you know why I don't support Japan on this matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan"Possession of child pornography depicting real children is legal in Japan."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#OppositionTo Japan, all non-Japanese people are nothing more than sub-humans. Possibly the only reason why they made an alliance with germany during world war II was for the fact that both countries had the world pissed off at them and needed allies fast.
Um no not every person in Japan thinks all non japanese people are sub humans, I doubt many do. And even if quite a few did,thinking every person in Japan has the same opinions and viewpoints and that you can just label them with one brush is kind of silly, how many actual Japanese people have you even met and talked to, and was it about something other than politics or history?. Btw despite what you said I don't A) view you as sub human (despite being Japanese believe it or not) and B) Assume every person from your country / race believes the same things you do.
Also really? Because of three negative but totally unrelated things to the islands(the three wikipedia articles you linked) you act like "well that's a good enough reason to be against Japan to me, they are a nation of whale killing pedophiles who kidnap other peoples children".
What you are saying is similar to "Do you know why I do support Japan on this matter?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teriyaki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon
And do you know why I don't support china on this matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
" "Deng [Xiaoping] and the Party elders made the decision that, because they believed this was a nationwide counterrevolutionary movement similar to what was happening in the Soviet Union, they needed to make a bloody stand to cower their population back into submission.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
"By November 2008, China reported an estimated 300,000 victims,[1] with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and a further 860 babies hospitalised.[2][3] The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content. In a separate incident four years before, watered-down milk had resulted in 13 infant deaths from malnutrition"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion
". The selective abortion of female fetuses is most common in areas where cultural norms value male children over female children, especially in parts of People's Republic of China, India, Pakistan, and the Caucasus.[1][2]"
(Please remember I'm trying to point out how this is a ridiculous method of forming or supporting your opinions, not trying to have a contest of who can link the most negative wikipedia articles about whatever country to prove who is the "right" side to support when both are in the wrong).
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On September 28 2012 04:19 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:48 NonFactor wrote:
I find it funny that I can recognize which of the American posters here are Korean / Chinese descent the way they post regarding this event. Nationalism is a powerful thing.
My 2 cents as an outsider currently in Japan and who will live in China in a few months: Shit is crazy and stupid. Sadly this is one of those issues that cant really be solved with everyone walking away happy. But I dont personally think anything major will blow out of this. Everyone has too much to lose over some small islands and right wingers. I am 100% American. 6th generation, born and raised. Do you know why I don't support Japan on this matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan"Possession of child pornography depicting real children is legal in Japan."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#OppositionTo Japan, all non-Japanese people are nothing more than sub-humans. Possibly the only reason why they made an alliance with germany during world war II was for the fact that both countries had the world pissed off at them and needed allies fast.
in a way you're doing the same thing as them - labeling everyone as something negative
(even though not all of them think "nonjapanese people are nothing more than sub-humans", lol, I know quite a few japanese people)
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not related but an update:
japan stations f15j jets on the coast of sea of japan near dokdo/takeshima.
korea response by planning on deploying ships on their side of sea of japan near dokdo/takeshima.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 28 2012 08:30 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
then you should support nonconfrontational, non vulgar nationalistic, non stupid solutions to this conflict. but apparently it is not on the table for the relevant parties. Your constant condescension in this thread doesn't quite make you the most brilliant example of a open-minded and enlightened individual in my eyes. Nationalism exists as it does in these countries, it's a fact, how about we accept that and work with it instead of acting as if we are somehow above these human flaws. Unfortunately, the situation has degenerated to a point where only time can heal these wounds in these countries imo.
how about no, when it is the source of the problem. this willingness to accept bad behavior because it takes work to eradicate said behavior is in itself pretty bad.
and time wont heal those wounds when it forms an engineered national consciousness. the whole founding narrative of the current chinese state is based on a national rise, from the valleys of darkness represented by the japanese invasion, to present status of a rising power, to future dominance. i think the prospects of 'beating' japan will be a subject the chinese government milks quite often in the future. the point here is that the conflict on the part of the general chinese populace, at least, is manufactured for certain political effects deemed desirable. when nationalism plays so large a role in how all this works, well, you tell me what to do. especially when many of the posters in this thread are examples of this kind of manipulation, defending their masters in the name of a nation.
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Your inability to accept nationalism as the modus operandi in East Asia and increasingly in the world at large is precisely the problem. The Japanese side practiced nationalism when it decided to nationalize the islands. The Chinese side practiced nationalism when it decided to contest / protest / riot against this decision. Seeking an end to nationalism reminds me of seeking an end to war. The same ivory tower idealism.
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On September 28 2012 09:15 jinorazi wrote:
not related but an update:
japan stations f15j jets on the coast of sea of japan near dokdo/takeshima.
korea response by planning on deploying ships on their side of sea of japan near dokdo/takeshima.
Lmao if the Japanese government thinks they can handle simultaneous and escalating border confrontations with China, Korea, and Russia then I'd be amazed.
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On September 28 2012 04:19 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:48 NonFactor wrote:
I find it funny that I can recognize which of the American posters here are Korean / Chinese descent the way they post regarding this event. Nationalism is a powerful thing.
My 2 cents as an outsider currently in Japan and who will live in China in a few months: Shit is crazy and stupid. Sadly this is one of those issues that cant really be solved with everyone walking away happy. But I dont personally think anything major will blow out of this. Everyone has too much to lose over some small islands and right wingers. I am 100% American. 6th generation, born and raised. Do you know why I don't support Japan on this matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan"Possession of child pornography depicting real children is legal in Japan."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#OppositionTo Japan, all non-Japanese people are nothing more than sub-humans. Possibly the only reason why they made an alliance with germany during world war II was for the fact that both countries had the world pissed off at them and needed allies fast.
Im going to be honest with you, and its for your sake.
That had to be one of the least intelligent / ignorant posts Ive read on these forums. Out of all the arguments you could have pulled against the Japanese regarding this case, this is it? This is the reason you side with the Chinese? I already saw some other posters point out how stupid this was, but it needed to be emphasized.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 28 2012 09:27 Azarkon wrote:
Your inability to accept nationalism as the modus operandi in East Asia and increasingly in the world at large is precisely the problem. The Japanese side practiced nationalism when it decided to nationalize the islands. The Chinese side practiced nationalism when it decided to contest / protest / riot against this decision. Seeking an end to nationalism reminds me of seeking an end to war. The same ivory tower idealism.
How is he unable to accept nationalism? He can discuss geopolitics by recognizing nationalism as a factor that influences large swathes of people and at the same time condemn it for being a force that tends to cause wars, doesn't make sense intellectually (label millions of people as good/bad based on their nationality) and is extremely prone to state manipulation.
Just because it's difficult to end wars doesn't mean people ought to stop trying. I don't know what you're trying to say there. At least people trying to seek an end to nationalism have a high ideal to aspire to. What's the alternative? Not discuss its moral implications and only discuss geopolitics?
I'm not saying that it's a practical or realistic goal for diplomats or completely relevant when people are discussing geopolitics, but I think most educated people who've studied 20th century history recognize the dangers of nationalism, and I feel it's important to be reminded of that once in a while instead of just embracing nationalism (even though we all have moments of weakness). What you dismiss as ivory tower idealism is for me a lighthouse that guides the minds of our generation, so the lives lost in wars during previous generations haven't been in vain and we have something to show for after learning from their mistakes.
edit: Please don't think that I hold some personal grudge against you. It's just that when I see a post that is really unfair (in a subtle way as opposed to Endzy's post) and others haven't been calling it out, I feel compelled to refute it lest it influence the minds of some younger posters in this forum who might take correct grammar/spelling to be a sign of valid logic.
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On September 28 2012 04:19 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 16:48 NonFactor wrote:
I find it funny that I can recognize which of the American posters here are Korean / Chinese descent the way they post regarding this event. Nationalism is a powerful thing.
My 2 cents as an outsider currently in Japan and who will live in China in a few months: Shit is crazy and stupid. Sadly this is one of those issues that cant really be solved with everyone walking away happy. But I dont personally think anything major will blow out of this. Everyone has too much to lose over some small islands and right wingers. I am 100% American. 6th generation, born and raised. Do you know why I don't support Japan on this matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_child_abduction_in_Japanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan"Possession of child pornography depicting real children is legal in Japan."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#OppositionTo Japan, all non-Japanese people are nothing more than sub-humans. Possibly the only reason why they made an alliance with germany during world war II was for the fact that both countries had the world pissed off at them and needed allies fast.
You favor China in a territorial dispute because of issues completely irrelevant which allow you to make a dramatic statement about how all Japanese view the rest of the world? I mean that is just massively ignorant to the real issues from both sides. Have you ever even met a Japanese person?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
oh man, ending to war? realize you not that the present world is much more safe and peaceful than the good olde days? it's also much less nationalistic than back in the imperial age. this is a sign of progress. let's be serious here and consider who is actually the moving force. i am pretty certain that in 300 years time china will be pretty well ordered, enlightened if you will. to get there takes a lot of effort though, just as the same efforts were carried out in the west.
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in my opinion, the only valid reason that Japan can claim the island is theirs is only because USA gave it to him.
and as China stated, it is in violation of the two treaties.
USA is actually quite responsible for this whole mess
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On September 28 2012 09:16 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:30 RavenLoud wrote:On September 28 2012 05:06 oneofthem wrote:
then you should support nonconfrontational, non vulgar nationalistic, non stupid solutions to this conflict. but apparently it is not on the table for the relevant parties. Your constant condescension in this thread doesn't quite make you the most brilliant example of a open-minded and enlightened individual in my eyes. Nationalism exists as it does in these countries, it's a fact, how about we accept that and work with it instead of acting as if we are somehow above these human flaws. Unfortunately, the situation has degenerated to a point where only time can heal these wounds in these countries imo. how about no, when it is the source of the problem. this willingness to accept bad behavior because it takes work to eradicate said behavior is in itself pretty bad. and time wont heal those wounds when it forms an engineered national consciousness. the whole founding narrative of the current chinese state is based on a national rise, from the valleys of darkness represented by the japanese invasion, to present status of a rising power, to future dominance. i think the prospects of 'beating' japan will be a subject the chinese government milks quite often in the future. the point here is that the conflict on the part of the general chinese populace, at least, is manufactured for certain political effects deemed desirable. when nationalism plays so large a role in how all this works, well, you tell me what to do. especially when many of the posters in this thread are examples of this kind of manipulation, defending their masters in the name of a nation.
You cannot eradicate nationalism by insulting people of that nation for one. You will only appear rude and ignorant, and really you're actually perpetuating their nationalistic feelings by doing that. Neither the Chinese (Tibet, Xinjiang) nor the Japanese (whale/dolphin hunting) react positively to the constant nagger of the (perceived) self-important and self-righteous attitude of the West. This works for most other things of the kind, be it racism, religious bigotry etc. Imagine if you try to stop racism by calling all Caucasians racist, calling all Jews intolerant, how productive is that.
It's useful to understand the source of nationalism, and deal with the issues rather than telling people that they should think exactly as you do, when you do not know the circumstances of the event.
Unlike Azarkon, I do not support Nationalism. However, I recognize that there are more sophisticated ways to deal with these kinds of problems than just jumping in and calling everybody an idiot. Patience, understanding, open discussion, respectful communication is required for a permanent solution. That tends to take a lot of time.
Collectivism is just very strong in Confucian cultures (e.g. all of East-Asia), nationalism is just an extension of it. Honestly, I have high respect for it, even though I can definitely see some rotten parts in it. As some posters pointed out in the beginning, the education system in these countries do not emphasize critical thinking so they tend to jump on a bandwagon out of cognitive dissonance.
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Sorry, i didn't read all the posts related to Dokdo, but i have no idea why you guys fight with Dokdo, it's Korean island.
Who thinks Dokdo is jap's?
Anyone who can prove or has proof, PM me.
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On September 29 2012 02:21 Hyeon wrote:
Sorry, i didn't read all the posts related to Dokdo, but i have no idea why you guys fight with Dokdo, it's Korean island.
Who thinks Dokdo is jap's?
Anyone who can prove or has proof, PM me.
Around 76-77 and 88-90 pages of this thread.
Enough is discussed. I believe both sides came to "I agree to disagree" level. That's as far as amateur discussion could go.
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What we need is to erase concepts of country and nationality.
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On September 28 2012 10:03 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:27 Azarkon wrote:
Your inability to accept nationalism as the modus operandi in East Asia and increasingly in the world at large is precisely the problem. The Japanese side practiced nationalism when it decided to nationalize the islands. The Chinese side practiced nationalism when it decided to contest / protest / riot against this decision. Seeking an end to nationalism reminds me of seeking an end to war. The same ivory tower idealism. How is he unable to accept nationalism? He can discuss geopolitics by recognizing nationalism as a factor that influences large swathes of people and at the same time condemn it for being a force that tends to cause wars, doesn't make sense intellectually (label millions of people as good/bad based on their nationality) and is extremely prone to state manipulation. Just because it's difficult to end wars doesn't mean people ought to stop trying. I don't know what you're trying to say there. At least people trying to seek an end to nationalism have a high ideal to aspire to. What's the alternative? Not discuss its moral implications and only discuss geopolitics? I'm not saying that it's a practical or realistic goal for diplomats or completely relevant when people are discussing geopolitics, but I think most educated people who've studied 20th century history recognize the dangers of nationalism, and I feel it's important to be reminded of that once in a while instead of just embracing nationalism (even though we all have moments of weakness). What you dismiss as ivory tower idealism is for me a lighthouse that guides the minds of our generation, so the lives lost in wars during previous generations haven't been in vain and we have something to show for after learning from their mistakes. edit: Please don't think that I hold some personal grudge against you. It's just that when I see a post that is really unfair (in a subtle way as opposed to Endzy's post) and others haven't been calling it out, I feel compelled to refute it lest it influence the minds of some younger posters in this forum who might take correct grammar/spelling to be a sign of valid logic.
The worst sort of idealism is one that presumes to understand without understanding, seeks to condemn without reflecting, and aims to guide without knowing where it's going. In the course of this thread, you and your allies have exhibited all three of these qualities:
Presumes to understand without understanding: 'nationalism is an infantile disease' and we ought to be rid of it - as opposed to an organizational development that was necessitated by industrialism and the competition between human groups
Seeks to condemn without reflecting: the Chinese [nationalists] are mindless followers of CCP propaganda - which is why the open societies of HK and Taiwan, neither of them followers of CCP propaganda, were among the first to protest / demonstrate against Japan
Aims to guide without knowing where it's going: the 'correct' solution to this problem is to overthrow the CCP / stop their totalitarian brainwashing - which is why the democratic KMT in Taiwan was the first to play a game of brinksmanship with Japan using its patrol vessels, and democratic South Korea is just as pissed at Japan over the Dokdo conflict
I suppose it's my mistake that rather than deny the validity of nationalism and its offspring, the nation-state, I choose instead to understand it. That rather than engaging in useless moral high horsing and condescension, I choose instead to state the practical outcome and solution. I suppose that makes me illogical and in need of a 'refutation' lest I 'influence the minds of youngsters' - because we all know that naive idealism, which breaks upon the first testing, is the best solution to the world's problems.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if only you understood my positions you'd know they are right.
1. your theory is post-hoc rationalization, endowing an unintentional mass movement with collective agency because that's the way humans see collective action. this is dated by about 250 years. this model has its uses, but it is still your projection.
2. your little title is quite different from what follows. dunno why. look up padfoota's post for a taiwan perspective on the ground. keep in mind, nationalism is itself a political issue in taiwan's partisan political climate. this is to say, yes, nationalism is politically expedient for mass effect not only in china but elsewhere. look around you, even.
3. if the spell of grand national narratives of historical enemies create much of the confrontational context, then it seems rather obvious that you should cast away this spell to make any progress in the conflict.
pat on head.
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EPT
