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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:05 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Shouldn't jump to conclusions so easily, evidence is good but meaning behind that data is more important. Ok, another example then, notice the number of schoolshootings in the US and all other countries in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:14 heroyi wrote: pretty sure its more than 7 lol... oh man that just made me sad. surprisingly this is still a very popular argument people still raise and ironically the only reason why the second amendment of bearing arms drafted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures approximately top 20 combined | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:15 Zandar wrote: Ok, another example then, notice the number of schoolshootings in the US and all other countries in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_school_shootings You completely missed the quote I used regarding the numbers and the fact it is the news HUB of the world then? I'm not arguing they happen more often but don't just throw down the gauntlet and say "that's that". More people generally = more murders, you can argue that per capita the States has a higher homicide rate and I wouldn't disagree with you but when you start packing people together like sardines and they're poor/no future they're going to start getting wild ideas. You don't hear many stories of the rich white harvard law student who went on a killing spree because he had his entire life paid for, it generally comes from inequality and poverty. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On August 28 2012 06:33 Cirqueenflex wrote: you know that the US (amongst many other countries) are not listed in this statistic because it is from an european institute? In 2006 there were 206 murders in Germany, and it has slightly more than 1/4 of the population of the US (which is crazy if you compare the size of the country). So it does not depend on the amount of people living together. According to this site: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm in 2006 there have been 17,030 cases of murders in the US. So if i calculated correctly, the US should be at around 54 killed people per 1 million inhabitants. Now go compare to the other western european countries That puts us at #5 on the European list. Suck it Ukraine! If this recovery stays bumpy Estonia better watch out too. On August 28 2012 07:04 Zandar wrote: A search for "shootings" on TL, I wonder why there are so many, almost all, from a certain country where it's legal to have a gun: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=shootings Since about 90% of weapons used by the cartels come from the USA, might as well include anything about the Mexican Drug War in your search. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09709.pdf Despite the well grounded "people kill people, not the thing that makes it really fucking easy" argument it sure seems like the lax gun laws in the US have helped mass murders in other countries (Norway shooting ammo) and gone a ways towards destabilizing our southern neighbor. Plus the US has very high rates of gun violence and homicides but its just our culture... right? So does that mean there's nothing we can do about it? | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:14 heroyi wrote: pretty sure its more than 7 lol... oh man that just made me sad. surprisingly this is still a very popular argument people still raise and ironically the only reason why the second amendment of bearing arms drafted I come from a very rural state (the most rural in fact) and I know a ton of people who own guns, hunters mostly. They would be totally opposed to the idea of losing their guns as much as you would be opposed to losing Starcraft (silly analogy, I know) for a lot of the men and women I know who use guns it is not a weapon but a tool like any other. Dangerous if misused and it could be turned on another person but hunters won't readily give up their guns. I think the argument about protecting our country is a rather shoddy one honestly, our military is one of the most powerful in the world (arguably the most powerful) and the men and women who want to keep guns to protect themselves usually want to protect themselves from other factions within the country not external ones. | ||
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PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote: Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools... I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security. You're really misinformed. | ||
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Bulldog654
United States79 Posts
On August 28 2012 06:59 henkel wrote: You are giving up lots of liberties because other people break the law with it. They became laws when the numbers pointed towards a bad influence on society. It was deemed worthy to regulate so should guns. You know the guy that invented one of the first kind of explosives believed it would be used to make an outer layer that could blow up when invaders came hence scaring them of and not coming at all. Has anyone ever been more wrong. You are making the same argument he did. I do agree with you that gun owners won't give up their guns but i am not confused but scared by the attitudes that insist on keeping a populace armed I agree with your first point, that we give up a lot of liberties because other people break laws, but that is a bad thing that should not be. I don't understand how I am making the same argument as a man that believed explosives could be used to scare off invaders, except in the sense that explosives can be used to scare off invaders, and so can guns, so I'm not sure how either he or I am wrong, unless you have misquoted him. I am saddened that you are scared by the attitudes that insist on an armed populace, as it means that you might not have studied history quite enough. If you do decide to study history, you will be met with the inescapable fact that citizens some times kill each other, but governments murder millions, and millions, and millions. The governments that have perpetrated these mind numbing genocides have always done so shortly after disarming them. It happened here in my own country, when we did everything we could to prevent the natives from having the same weapons as us. And of course there should be little need to mention Europe. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
The United States is the most drugged country in the world. It's not the guns, it's the drugs. How many of you if you had a gun would go and and commit a shooting? It's idiotic to think it's a gun problem. Guns don't pick themselves up and shoot people by themselves, our society is deteriorating and becoming more and more immoral. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:40 Esk23 wrote: The answer is simple, you're having more shootings, violence and suicide because of this: http://www.cchr.org/videos/psychiatrys-prescription-for-violence.html. The United States is the most drugged country in the world. It's not the guns, it's the drugs. Those posts make me sick. Honestly, how does a person with a huge human brain, the most intelligent thing we know of, comes with a conclusion like THERE IS ONE FACTOR AND THIS ONE THING IS YOUR ANSWER! No. -_- Take tinfoil hat off now. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:44 Djzapz wrote: Those posts make me sick. Honestly, how does a person with a huge human brain, the most intelligent thing we know of, comes with a conclusion like THERE IS ONE FACTOR AND THIS ONE THING IS YOUR ANSWER! No. -_- What the fuck are you even talking about. It's a big reason why there is so much violence and shootings. Watch the video and educate yourself about psychiatric drugs. Of course there are different factors, but most people don't just get a gun and shoot someone for no reason. I guess the guns turn people evil like the Ring from Lord of the Rings. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
On August 28 2012 03:59 blade55555 wrote: hahaha oh how wrong you are. When somebody wants to shoot people they find a way to get a gun. It wouldn't prevent anything but unfortunately I know no matter how hard I try there is no way for you to see reason. As for the OP, I think it's just media being able to cover everything. There are lots of murders with guns/knifes/etc. From what it sounds like he was probably bullied by the kid is my guess which caused him to want to kill him. I know this happened at my school or almost happened but somebody turned the kid in. He was going to knife a kid (ironically he bullied me to the kid he was going to knife). If he hadn't been caught he would have done it to. i dont want to participate in this "gun control or not"-discussion, but this i have to say: its complete bullshit that everyone can get a weapon and kill, when he wants to. 1. these things come only to mind when you got a weapon at hand. 2. in germany at least theres absolutely no way for a common person to get his hands on a weapon. NO way. there arent people who have weapons at home, you could just take. there is no way to buy a weapon. the difficulties to get a weapon leaves much time for a person to calm down and think. this thinking "everyone could get a weapon if he wants, laws cant change that" is just because you are used to buy and see weapons everywhere you go in the US. its not like that in the rest of the world, you are just not able to imagine this situation. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
However, people need to accept that cosmic injustices are inevitable. They need to accept that horrible things will happen sometimes, and it doesn't mean that they need to fix society with their enlightened view of the world. | ||
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BandonBanshee
Canada437 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You completely missed the quote I used regarding the numbers and the fact it is the news HUB of the world then? I'm not arguing they happen more often but don't just throw down the gauntlet and say "that's that". More people generally = more murders, you can argue that per capita the States has a higher homicide rate and I wouldn't disagree with you but when you start packing people together like sardines and they're poor/no future they're going to start getting wild ideas. You don't hear many stories of the rich white harvard law student who went on a killing spree because he had his entire life paid for, it generally comes from inequality and poverty. More people doesn't equal more killings, USA( 311,591,917) has more gun crime than all of Europe combined ( 738,199,000). Guns are so embedded into American culture it's basically their identity now. Until Americans shift away from that this will continue to be a problem. The amount of Americans who fanatically defend guns is mind boggling. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:54 BandonBanshee wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 28 2012 07:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You completely missed the quote I used regarding the numbers and the fact it is the news HUB of the world then? I'm not arguing they happen more often but don't just throw down the gauntlet and say "that's that". More people generally = more murders, you can argue that per capita the States has a higher homicide rate and I wouldn't disagree with you but when you start packing people together like sardines and they're poor/no future they're going to start getting wild ideas. You don't hear many stories of the rich white harvard law student who went on a killing spree because he had his entire life paid for, it generally comes from inequality and poverty. More people doesn't equal more killings, USA( 311,591,917) has more gun crime than all of Europe combined ( 738,199,000). Guns are so embedded into American culture it's basically their identity now. Until Americans shift away from that this will continue to be a problem. The amount of Americans who fanatically defend guns is mind boggling. What's mind boggling is the amount of foreigners like you who talk your bullshit about how our gun laws should be and how we should be like you. Worry about your own country, no one gives a shit what you think. User was banned for this post. | ||
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NagAfightinG
United Kingdom270 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:02 Praetorial wrote: We have these things called licenses...and ID checks... Boy they are really working well hey buddy. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:54 BandonBanshee wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 28 2012 07:21 NeMeSiS3 wrote: You completely missed the quote I used regarding the numbers and the fact it is the news HUB of the world then? I'm not arguing they happen more often but don't just throw down the gauntlet and say "that's that". More people generally = more murders, you can argue that per capita the States has a higher homicide rate and I wouldn't disagree with you but when you start packing people together like sardines and they're poor/no future they're going to start getting wild ideas. You don't hear many stories of the rich white harvard law student who went on a killing spree because he had his entire life paid for, it generally comes from inequality and poverty. More people doesn't equal more killings, USA( 311,591,917) has more gun crime than all of Europe combined ( 738,199,000). Guns are so embedded into American culture it's basically their identity now. Until Americans shift away from that this will continue to be a problem. The amount of Americans who fanatically defend guns is mind boggling. Can you provide some statistics that show all of Europe combined has less gun related deaths than USA? Including Eastern Europe (Yugoslavic region). Also like anything, rock concerts... Riots... The more people that attend, the more violence is bound to happen, but you can't honestly think more gun crime happens in USA with 311,600,00 people than the 740,200,000 people in Europe, that is really making your entire stance weak. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On August 28 2012 05:18 m4inbrain wrote: Ahm, thats the point. It should not be that easy to get a gun. He was a sport-shooter (or whatever its called) - an argument coming mostly from americans to justify guns. If you want to "sport-shoot", go to a range, where your gun is stored, shoot, and drive home again. That would stop most shootings in europe (because most of them happen because a familymember or the lunatic himself was in a "Schützenverein", a sportshooting-club). Thats not strict gun laws, as we in germany actually had to admit. Nowadays you need to prove that your gun is stored in a "safe", and you have to show it to an inspector or policeman if he wants to check that. Edit: but just the fact that kids and teens over here grow up with the knowledge that guns are bad (and dont get used to them by seeing them every day in their parents hands, or visit shooting ranges with daddy, helps alot. A gun over here is a totally different thing to a kid than in america. Its "normal" to have a gun, and it should not be. You should not get used to guns while growing up. America's problem is not nation wide culture. Compare American white vs European white murder rates and they are damn close despite a much larger number of guns in the Americans' hands. Comparatively we just have very violent minorities. I have posted the FBI graph about this before. Everyone in Europe has knives but they don't go around stabbing people, do they? (may have stabbed myself in the foot with that rhetorical question because I know the UK has very high knife crime) It takes both ability (the weapon's availability etc) and desire. White Americans could absolutely slaughter each other given the amount of guns and ammo they have compared to disarmed European whites, but they don't. You need a certain combination of genes and environment to get someone to pick up the gun and pull the trigger while pointing at another human being. The problem we have in America is we have too many people who want to pull the trigger and they tend to come from quite specific groups and places. Edit: I should mention I consider it worthless to distinguish between murders with guns and murders. Hypothetically if you get rid of guns and instead of having 100 people shot to death you have 100 people stabbed to death I consider that situation no better (probably worse). | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
Recently there were three rampages in S Korea where people were randomly attacked in public places by crazies wielding knifes. Several people were injured but the total number of deaths? Only one. Can you really, honestly say that if they had been wielding guns rather than knifes the death toll would have been that low? | ||
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PaqMan
United States1475 Posts
If someone from Switzerland could please confirm this? I don't buy that "GUNS ARE THE REASON FOR VIOLENCE" and "blame gun control" bullshit. America just has a higher ratio of fucked up people. On August 28 2012 08:34 tomatriedes wrote: For all the 'people kill people; guns don't make any difference because they could just use knives instead' crowd- Recently there were three rampages in S Korea where people were randomly attacked in public places by crazies wielding knifes. Several people were injured but the total number of deaths? Only one. Can you really, honestly say that if they had been wielding guns rather than knifes the death toll would have been that low? Let's pretend a serial killer breaks into your house. Because he is a serial killer and takes joy in murdering people, let's assume his favorite tool is an extremely sharp knife. Because your government took away your gun, the only thing you have left to defend your wife and kids is a baseball bat in your closet or a knife all the way in your kitchen. The chance of you defending your family against him with no one getting hurt is extremely low. I'd rather have a gun. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On August 28 2012 09:30 PaqMan wrote: From what I've read somewhere, because Switzerland has no standing full-time army, all men are required to go through some form of military training throughout their lives, a few weeks a year. Men between the ages of 21 and 32 are given M-57 assault rifles and 24 rounds of ammunition which is required to be kept at home. If someone from Switzerland could please confirm this? I don't buy that "GUNS ARE THE REASON FOR VIOLENCE" and "blame gun control" bullshit. America just has a higher ratio of fucked up people. Let's pretend a serial killer breaks into your house. Because he is a serial killer and takes joy in murdering people, let's assume his favorite tool is an extremely sharp knife. Because your government took away your gun, the only thing you have left to defend your wife and kids is a baseball bat in your closet or a knife all the way in your kitchen. The chance of you defending your family against him with no one getting hurt is extremely low. I'd rather have a gun. You're falsely comparing gun ownership and gun control. In Switzerland it is very difficult to get permits so you can carry guns in public. The regulatory systems are completely different. High gun ownership does not equal lax gun control. Edit: Given the choice between taking on serial killer with knife and serial killer with gun and your weapons provided. I would go with baseball bat vs knife any damn day. | ||
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