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On August 31 2012 01:35 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 18:30 Leporello wrote:On August 30 2012 03:59 dementrio wrote:
Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied. Right, I don't think people appreciate that those illegal guns were made and sold legally, in America. The only thing that makes them illegal is the second-hand transaction that comes after the legal one. Our gun laws, or lack thereof, have created the world's best market for the gun industry -- and they really don't care how many of their guns are resold on the black market. Unfortunately, it's gone on so long that are country is flooded with weaponry. I still think we can make sensible compromises -- banning assault weapons, banning gun shows were guns are often sold without background checks -- but even those measures will be fought tooth-and-nail by the NRA as being unconstitutional. It's kind of hopeless how little we can do at this point. But the idea that our welcoming of firearms has made our country safer is just insane to me. The amount of guns in our country has obviously not made this a peaceful country. Actually, a huge number of illegal firearms are smuggled in from Mexico because of the War on Drugs.
Plus, its often impossible to trace illegal firearms back to their country of origin since they've usually had their serial numbers scratched off. Just because a gun is a Colt design doesn't mean it was made in one of Colt's US factories, or even by Colt at all. It could easily be a copy (authorized or otherwise). I also don't think we should ban assault weapons because legal ones are almost never used in criminal acts. It does happen on rare occasions, but they're very few and far between. The vast majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, which are not assault weapons. I'm cool with getting rid of the private transaction loophole, but I don't want to get rid of private transactions entirely. I think the government should open up their background check services to everyone, not just licensed firearms dealers. That way you can still have private transactions and they can still be safe.
Can you qualify this claim, as it is common practice for pro-gun individuals to simply suggest that guns will come from elsewhere once more regulated, without much evidence. How do the guns get to Mexico, because if the Eric Holder scandal is any indication, the answer is most likely the US.
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On August 31 2012 01:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:35 Millitron wrote:On August 30 2012 18:30 Leporello wrote:On August 30 2012 03:59 dementrio wrote:
Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied. Right, I don't think people appreciate that those illegal guns were made and sold legally, in America. The only thing that makes them illegal is the second-hand transaction that comes after the legal one. Our gun laws, or lack thereof, have created the world's best market for the gun industry -- and they really don't care how many of their guns are resold on the black market. Unfortunately, it's gone on so long that are country is flooded with weaponry. I still think we can make sensible compromises -- banning assault weapons, banning gun shows were guns are often sold without background checks -- but even those measures will be fought tooth-and-nail by the NRA as being unconstitutional. It's kind of hopeless how little we can do at this point. But the idea that our welcoming of firearms has made our country safer is just insane to me. The amount of guns in our country has obviously not made this a peaceful country. Actually, a huge number of illegal firearms are smuggled in from Mexico because of the War on Drugs.
Plus, its often impossible to trace illegal firearms back to their country of origin since they've usually had their serial numbers scratched off. Just because a gun is a Colt design doesn't mean it was made in one of Colt's US factories, or even by Colt at all. It could easily be a copy (authorized or otherwise). I also don't think we should ban assault weapons because legal ones are almost never used in criminal acts. It does happen on rare occasions, but they're very few and far between. The vast majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, which are not assault weapons. I'm cool with getting rid of the private transaction loophole, but I don't want to get rid of private transactions entirely. I think the government should open up their background check services to everyone, not just licensed firearms dealers. That way you can still have private transactions and they can still be safe. Can you qualify this claim, as it is common practice for pro-gun individuals to simply suggest that guns will come from elsewhere once more regulated, without much evidence. How do the guns get to Mexico, because if the Eric Holder scandal is any indication, the answer is most likely the US.
Unfortunately, I can't. As I look more into it, searching for sources to cite on where illegal weapons have been traced back to, the only sources I can find are about weapons seized in Mexico. These sources say the firearms were produced in the US. I do not know if the tracing method is more scrutinizing than just "Made by an American company, must have been made in America", and also, once the cartels have the guns, they can go back and forth between the US and Mexico. Just because they were seized in Mexico does not mean they haven't gone back and forth a few times.
I HAVE found sources however, saying that a slight majority of illegal firearms are acquired through straw purchases. That is, someone legally qualified to own a given weapon buys it, and turns it over to someone not qualified. No gun control I've heard of, short of getting rid of all guns everywhere, really deals with this issue. And if you don't deal with the big problem, any other controls will just be a band-aid on a shark-bite. I would counter straw purchases with extremely steep punishments for anyone caught. Huge fines/jail time, possible accomplice charges to any crimes committed with said gun, can never legally own a firearm again.
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There isn't a great demand for guns in the US because of the great supply, there's a great supply because of great demand. Shut down the US gun industry, and watch Russia, China, Eastern Europe and Africa move in to provide the supply. Super restrictive gun control isn't exactly a widely implemented policy outside of maybe a third of the world.
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On August 31 2012 06:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:
There isn't a great demand for guns in the US because of the great supply, there's a great supply because of great demand. Shut down the US gun industry, and watch Russia, China, Eastern Europe and Africa move in to provide the supply. Super restrictive gun control isn't exactly a widely implemented policy outside of maybe a third of the world.
Not shut down supply but have an international comprehensive BAN ON GUNS with the appropriate implementing law on it.
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Music is not to blame. Video games are not to blame. TV and movies, still not to blame. These things do not force people to make the wrong decisions. Call of Duty does not encourage anyone to go on a shooting spree; and on top of that, neither music, movies, or games aid in the preparation or training of the use of any weapon.
Unfortunately, I think it is too late to make any changes that will stop shootings, or people from owning or having guns. A system would have needed to be implimented hundreds of years ago to prevent what is happening today.
It isnt just a law or a "rights" problem, it is a cultural problem too. It is an unfortunate reality, but it's one that we are forced to live with.
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On August 28 2012 03:51 Xiron wrote:Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons. User was warned for this post
Is he being warned for the post because he is speaking the truth?
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On August 31 2012 07:12 ballerB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 03:51 Xiron wrote:On August 28 2012 03:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
What is motivating this?
Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons. User was warned for this post Is he being warned for the post because he is speaking the truth?
He's being warned because every single topic about guns ends up with about 40% of its posts being 1-liners that don't make any new or interesting points, and are often way too cut-and-dry. As we can see from the posts that are dozens of paragraphs long, there's more to it than just "Fail gun laws".
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I'm all down to reduce the ridiculously high number of shootings in the USA, but I wish people would realize that strict gun control on its own is not going to help much. Just because you outlaw something, doesn't mean that it no longer happens (think war on drugs in the usa).
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On September 01 2012 07:09 wtfSurprise wrote:
I'm all down to reduce the ridiculously high number of shootings in the USA, but I wish people would realize that strict gun control on its own is not going to help much. Just because you outlaw something, doesn't mean that it no longer happens (think war on drugs in the usa).
Indeed, there's now too many guns in the US to control it. Most of people feel the need to own one, most of criminals...want one, most of politicians don't have the guts to take the good decisions and finnaly to be honest, the US are good for guns, it's a huge currency income.
I considere it's bad, but I considere there no healthy solution either. It's fucked. Let's wait for better days.
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On August 31 2012 07:12 ballerB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 03:51 Xiron wrote:On August 28 2012 03:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
What is motivating this?
Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons. User was warned for this post Is he being warned for the post because he is speaking the truth?
Yes, Team Liquid has a strict no-truth policy. That is why he is being warned.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
The eleventh commandment: ONLY LIES
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EPT
