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On August 29 2012 19:46 Fulmine wrote:There is plenty need for firearms still. There are still people who would intrude upon me or my home if they saw fit to do so for whatever reason, be it to steal my property, or harm me. There are places I can not safely go without some protection, because if I do I could easily be targeted and killed solely on random factors such as race. To think there is no need of self protection is a bit silly, the world is not some peaceful place, definitely not yet. Hopefully we'll get there one day but violence with and without guns is still quite high, and to top it off we have statistics to prove gun control has increased the crime rate and removing it has lowered it here. http://gunowners.org/fs0101.htmWhen the world has reached a status of unattainable peace, then we can rid ourselves of guns. But the fact is thus, there are still many extremely bad people out there, and there is no sign of this changing any time soon. Take away the protection, and trust me it will not lower crime. and any lowering of mass shooting incidents will be greatly overshadowed by other forms of attacks increasing dramatically. (there is a statistic about that in the above link, which ill go ahead and copy paste.) Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.25 ^Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection Also: * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."28 * 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."29 * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."30 D. Police cannot protect -- and are not required to protect -- every individual Just some stats for you. also: "My simplest argument is still: If your not a Hunter, you don't need a gun, therefore you should not be able to get a gun because there is no need for you to have one. If you think there is actually a need for having one, your part of the problem." A simple argument to a very complex issue doesn't seem too fitting unfortunately, I definitely wish it were that simple though. Also allow me to throw you a hypothetical. Lets say that version of guncontrol is imposed. No one but government and hunters are allowed to own guns. What's stopping the hunters from flipping the fuck out and killing you? You can't stop them. They got a gun, you don't. Another thing we've seen here lately is that many of your mass shooters were people who were on the right track in life and suddenly 180'ed into the monsters they became, the aurora shooter being a perfect example of this. He was well on the right way to having a very successful and prosperous life and then he just went crazy. So what's stopping any random hunter from doing the same thing, not you, you don't have a gun. Don't say police either, by the time they can even get there, you're more than likely dead, and your murderer has taken what he/she wants and has fled, and it could be years, decades even before they're brought to justice, and ultimately, you're still dead in the end.
First of all, my world is pretty fucking peaceful. A part of that is knowing that noone's walking around with guns (and very rarely does anyone walk around with a knife).
Second of all, let's say that everyone's a psychopath (as in your example). Do you really think that you having a gun will stop them all from hurting you? Really? You'd have way bigger problems than that. Look, shit happens, just wake up to the reality that sometimes you are powerless to your sorroundings. If someone wants to hurt you, they will, you having a gun or not. Even more so when you don't see it coming.
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I'm pretty sure if I have a gun and someone does something to try and hurt me that I'll have put them down before they get the chance, or at the very least the gun will indeed give me the chance to fight back.
Infact very often just mentioning or drawing the gun is enough to deter people.
Your "world" may be peaceful, but sweden does still have some violence in it, that being said I will defend you on the fact that yes, our crime rates are higher, significantly, because we do still have a pretty terrible culture here.
As well the majority of murders are typically related to gang violence, but that's a sad fact that goes swept under the rug by the MSM. Most of the true gun violence here goes on with illegally purchased weaponry, which like I said before if you think it's difficult to buy a weapon off the record you really need a little more life experience, but most of whats reported calls on the legal weapon attacks.
And again banning guns has statistically shown to increase violence, not lower it. The UK is a prime example.
Also. if you want to look up our violent crime rates per city, youll find 2 particular cities standing at the top, Chicago and the district of columbia, now then which 2 cities in the US have the strictest gun control laws? Chicago and the district of columbia.
The problem isn't the weaponry, hell given with the terrible culture we have here, take away guns and the market will likely shift towards something else. You would be surprised what kind of crazy shit you can learn to make on the internet, and for how cheap you can do it.
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This reminds me of the Wire!
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:D
User was warned for this post
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Bring on the gun control debate.
I'm fucking tired of reading this shit in general.
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Are you for gun control or for constitutional liberty?
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On August 30 2012 03:16 Fulmine wrote:
Are you for gun control or for constitutional liberty?
I'm a libertarian. You do the math.
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Obama is elected president, then we see an increase in gun violence...Coincidence? I think Not.
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Take down obama he makes us shoot our friendly neighbours
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On August 29 2012 21:54 Spec wrote:
Disenfranchised people goes terrorist. Happy people don't go terrorist.
Most intelligent post I've read all day.
The U.S. doesn't just have more gun violence, it has more violence period. It also has ALOT more poverty and a far more stratified class structure, in which a tiny elite class has nearly all land holdings, political power and financial wealth, and a giant underclass squabbles for their table-scraps. It's also a neo-liberalist's (objectivist, libertarian, whatever you want to call them) paradise, where allowing some people to do whatever the fuck they want is much more important than the overall wellbeing of our society and the individuals that constitute it.
In more egalitarian societies, violence isn't nearly so systemic.
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guns, Americans, guns.
Once you've removed that, we can all talk about psychology, moribund society, etc.
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The problem seems to me more like terrorism rather than people dieing.
You would save more lives in America ( and probably anywhere in the world ) if for just 1 year every person that owns a hummer is taken there driving license away than you would save if guns would be no existent for 10 years.
Its kinda the thought that one of your classmates/co-workers/even a random person on the street could buy a gun and kill you at any point in time that makes you afraid i guess, but the chances of that happening are smaller than the chances that you are hit by a buss while going to work/school.
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Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied.
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On August 29 2012 21:01 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 19:46 Fulmine wrote:
Also allow me to throw you a hypothetical. Lets say that version of guncontrol is imposed. No one but government and hunters are allowed to own guns. What's stopping the hunters from flipping the fuck out and killing you? You can't stop them. They got a gun, you don't. Another thing we've seen here lately is that many of your mass shooters were people who were on the right track in life and suddenly 180'ed into the monsters they became, the aurora shooter being a perfect example of this. He was well on the right way to having a very successful and prosperous life and then he just went crazy. So what's stopping any random hunter from doing the same thing, not you, you don't have a gun. Don't say police either, by the time they can even get there, you're more than likely dead, and your murderer has taken what he/she wants and has fled, and it could be years, decades even before they're brought to justice, and ultimately, you're still dead in the end. Well, yeah nothing could stop the hunter, but at least, US might have a murder rate per capita that doesn't double most of the other rich democracy who have this kind of guncontrol. That's what most europeans are saying. I could agree with you when you say that guns are a protection, but when I read the digits of murders in US, i think : "Hum, this protection doesn't seems very effective." (to say the least). No offence, but the digits contradict your arguments.
Guns don't cause the murder rates though, socioeconomic conditions do. The rates are so high in the US because a few hellholes like Detroit skew the average. The vast majority of the US has much lower murder rates.
Plus, don't forget that the vast majority of shootings occur either by criminals in the act of some other crime, or between criminals. Europe doesn't have a gang problem comparable to that in the US, which helps explain the difference in murder rates.
On August 30 2012 02:24 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 19:46 Fulmine wrote:There is plenty need for firearms still. There are still people who would intrude upon me or my home if they saw fit to do so for whatever reason, be it to steal my property, or harm me. There are places I can not safely go without some protection, because if I do I could easily be targeted and killed solely on random factors such as race. To think there is no need of self protection is a bit silly, the world is not some peaceful place, definitely not yet. Hopefully we'll get there one day but violence with and without guns is still quite high, and to top it off we have statistics to prove gun control has increased the crime rate and removing it has lowered it here. http://gunowners.org/fs0101.htmWhen the world has reached a status of unattainable peace, then we can rid ourselves of guns. But the fact is thus, there are still many extremely bad people out there, and there is no sign of this changing any time soon. Take away the protection, and trust me it will not lower crime. and any lowering of mass shooting incidents will be greatly overshadowed by other forms of attacks increasing dramatically. (there is a statistic about that in the above link, which ill go ahead and copy paste.) Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.25 ^Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection Also: * 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."28 * 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."29 * 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."30 D. Police cannot protect -- and are not required to protect -- every individual Just some stats for you. also: "My simplest argument is still: If your not a Hunter, you don't need a gun, therefore you should not be able to get a gun because there is no need for you to have one. If you think there is actually a need for having one, your part of the problem." A simple argument to a very complex issue doesn't seem too fitting unfortunately, I definitely wish it were that simple though. Also allow me to throw you a hypothetical. Lets say that version of guncontrol is imposed. No one but government and hunters are allowed to own guns. What's stopping the hunters from flipping the fuck out and killing you? You can't stop them. They got a gun, you don't. Another thing we've seen here lately is that many of your mass shooters were people who were on the right track in life and suddenly 180'ed into the monsters they became, the aurora shooter being a perfect example of this. He was well on the right way to having a very successful and prosperous life and then he just went crazy. So what's stopping any random hunter from doing the same thing, not you, you don't have a gun. Don't say police either, by the time they can even get there, you're more than likely dead, and your murderer has taken what he/she wants and has fled, and it could be years, decades even before they're brought to justice, and ultimately, you're still dead in the end. First of all, my world is pretty fucking peaceful. A part of that is knowing that noone's walking around with guns (and very rarely does anyone walk around with a knife). Second of all, let's say that everyone's a psychopath (as in your example). Do you really think that you having a gun will stop them all from hurting you? Really? You'd have way bigger problems than that. Look, shit happens, just wake up to the reality that sometimes you are powerless to your sorroundings. If someone wants to hurt you, they will, you having a gun or not. Even more so when you don't see it coming.
You only feel safer knowing people aren't armed because you did not grow up around guns. I did, so I feel fine whether people are armed or not. I know how incredibly unlikely it is that someone will shoot me, accidentally or otherwise. You seem to think that the minute someone reasonable and sane has a gun, your chances of being shot spike up to 99%. They don't.
On August 30 2012 03:59 dementrio wrote:
Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied.
Lower legal availability will actually increase illegal availability. Look at prohibition. All it did was make the industry illegal, which meant only criminals would be involved. Since they're already criminals, they'll be fine with committing other crimes along the way. Further, a lack of legal firearms will increase the demand for illegal firearms, and make it even more profitable.
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On August 30 2012 03:34 vdeliriumv wrote:
Obama is elected president, then we see an increase in gun violence...Coincidence? I think Not.
Obama is known for driving down D-street and opening up his gat on teh pleebz.
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"Lower legal availability will actually increase illegal availability. Look at prohibition. All it did was make the industry illegal, which meant only criminals would be involved. Since they're already criminals, they'll be fine with committing other crimes along the way. Further, a lack of legal firearms will increase the demand for illegal firearms, and make it even more profitable."
This ^
If a law abiding citizen cannot get a gun then only the criminals would have them. Therefore bringing the murder rate even higher... What's not listed as a statistic is the number of gun murders that were prevented either by shooting the criminal first or deterring them from committing the crime in the first place.
Take NY for example. One guy shoots another in an act of crazy rage (his boss) for losing his job. Then the cops come and not sure the whole scenario, probably guns drawn on him, felt like no way out other then to pull his weapon causing the police to shoot 15-17 shots in which I think 9 hit him and the rest injured 6-8 other people including 2 direct hits on civilians that required to be surgically removed.
Are guns dangerous... yes... If it was possible that NO ONE in the entire USA could have a gun, law enforcement included. Then I would be all for it. But just the logistics and criminal activity across borders, it is completely impossible. So to equal out the crimes. If every person in the USA carried a gun at all times. I think you would see much less gun crimes since who is going to try to rob someone they know is carrying?
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I just hear one thing from many pro posters here:
"I feel scared whiteout a gun to protect myself"... Which tells tons about the place you live in...
Isn't it proven that your more likely to be hurt when you actually draw a gun to protect yourself than by just giving in?
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Zurich15325 Posts
I haven't read the entire thread. Is there anything substantial over the past 5 pages that is not part of the gun policy debate?
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On August 30 2012 03:59 dementrio wrote:
Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied.
Right, I don't think people appreciate that those illegal guns were made and sold legally, in America. The only thing that makes them illegal is the second-hand transaction that comes after the legal one. Our gun laws, or lack thereof, have created the world's best market for the gun industry -- and they really don't care how many of their guns are resold on the black market.
Unfortunately, it's gone on so long that are country is flooded with weaponry. I still think we can make sensible compromises -- banning assault weapons, banning gun shows were guns are often sold without background checks -- but even those measures will be fought tooth-and-nail by the NRA as being unconstitutional. It's kind of hopeless how little we can do at this point. But the idea that our welcoming of firearms has made our country safer is just insane to me. The amount of guns in our country has obviously not made this a peaceful country.
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On August 30 2012 18:30 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 03:59 dementrio wrote:
Lower legal availability forces lower illegal availability. The source is the same for both markets; as the offer for legal guns goes down the black market has to pay a premium. It's easy to see this happening the prescription drug black market: with increasingly tight control, street prices are skyrocketing. (Which is the same thing as saying availability is plummeting).
The whole idea behind gun control laws in gun control countries is that the state has a "monopoly on violence". The citizen agrees to relinquish his rights to use violence or to take the law in his own hands. It's typically not that hard to get a gun, but you can't get it for self-defense and in fact if you mention that as your motive you're very likely to get denied. Right, I don't think people appreciate that those illegal guns were made and sold legally, in America. The only thing that makes them illegal is the second-hand transaction that comes after the legal one. Our gun laws, or lack thereof, have created the world's best market for the gun industry -- and they really don't care how many of their guns are resold on the black market. Unfortunately, it's gone on so long that are country is flooded with weaponry. I still think we can make sensible compromises -- banning assault weapons, banning gun shows were guns are often sold without background checks -- but even those measures will be fought tooth-and-nail by the NRA as being unconstitutional. It's kind of hopeless how little we can do at this point. But the idea that our welcoming of firearms has made our country safer is just insane to me. The amount of guns in our country has obviously not made this a peaceful country.
Actually, a huge number of illegal firearms are smuggled in from Mexico because of the War on Drugs.
Plus, its often impossible to trace illegal firearms back to their country of origin since they've usually had their serial numbers scratched off. Just because a gun is a Colt design doesn't mean it was made in one of Colt's US factories, or even by Colt at all. It could easily be a copy (authorized or otherwise).
I also don't think we should ban assault weapons because legal ones are almost never used in criminal acts. It does happen on rare occasions, but they're very few and far between. The vast majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns, which are not assault weapons.
I'm cool with getting rid of the private transaction loophole, but I don't want to get rid of private transactions entirely. I think the government should open up their background check services to everyone, not just licensed firearms dealers. That way you can still have private transactions and they can still be safe.
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EPT
