On August 28 2012 03:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: What is motivating this?
Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons.
oiii here we go again
Yea, sadly that's the foundation of all those shootings. If noone had weapons, those shootings wouldn't happen (as much). Those crazy people are being encouraged by the media, get a weapon and go at it.
On August 28 2012 03:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: What is motivating this?
Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons.
but there must be something more to this than merely having guns. countries in europe, asia, and elsewhere have guns too, but the shooting is astronomically not anywhere near as in the us. maybe its a cultural or psychological thing with americans and guns and killings. has there been a study on this from this perspective? id be interested to read it.
On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote: Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools...
I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security.
We have these things called licenses...and ID checks...
because when you have ids and licences, you can't shoot pr be shot. lol you're a funny guy. thanks i had a good laugh.
Banning weapons would cause only one thing - only the bad guys would be able to get one. I don't think weapon amount in the country has anything to do with the amount of shootings - look at Switzerland, almost every house has a weapon there. Yet it's considered one of the safest countries in the world. I think You have to find another source for these shootings in USA...
Someone "going postal" happens every once in a while through a wide field of circumstances and places. Whether that's a cutural or institutional problem or problem born from certain individuals, I can't really say. I'm not sure if this particular instance is indicative of increased violence or has any connection to do with other recent shootings that have occured.
Some kid shooting another kid isn't a unique problem. It happens a lot. The only thing outstanding about this shooting was that it was done in school instead of in the streets. And I guess because it was in a middle class community. If the shooter had a specific grudge against the victim, it doesn't seem like it's been revealed. Who knows what motivated this. Could be bullying, could be Pokemon cards or it could be something else entirely.
On August 28 2012 04:11 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Praetorial wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote: Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools...
I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security.
We have these things called licenses...and ID checks...
because when you have ids and licences, you can't shoot pr be shot. lol you're a funny guy. thanks i had a good laugh.
Banning weapons would cause only one thing - only the bad guys would be able to get one. I don't think weapon amount in the country has anything to do with the amount of shootings - look at Switzerland, almost every house has a weapon there. Yet it's considered one of the safest countries in the world. I think You have to find another source for these shootings in USA...
Maybe because they dont have that cowboy-attitude.
Large concentrations of people at predictable times in places like schools or theaters contribute greatly to the number of shooting victims in certain cases. They also heighten our fear as the general public because these are places we go often, and need to go often.
Fear is usually the greatest weapon of all.
The catch 22 is that if you ban guns, only criminals have guns. The other side of it is to cause fear in potential criminals by allowing anyone to carry guns, theoretically discouraging crime and protecting the innocent.
More guns seem to parallel more public fear, however. Yoda said fear would lead to the dark side of the force. That's why he carried a light saber instead.
Argument #1: Allowing guns leads to gun deaths. Therefore they should be banned. Counter: Cars lead to car deaths, should we make cars illegal? *Change argument* Argument #2: Cars have a real use and a guns only use is to hurt people. Therefore they should be banned. Counter: Guns have other uses, X, Y, Z (self defense) *Change argument* Argument #3: The statistics show guns aren't an efficient means of self defense. Therefore they should be banned. Counter: Your claim was that they had NO valid use... now you are arguing statistical efficiency which has no bearing on constitutional rights. *Change argument* Argument #4: The founding fathers intended that right for militias/The founding fathers lived in a different time and that right is backwards. Eventually we will get back to "But guns lead to gun deaths" and start all over again.
In other words it is a debate of deflection. After each point or argument gets challenged, instead of defending their original point they simply leap into a different argument, and we go in circles over and over. This is why you can't get anywhere, because they don't pick and maintain their point, they just throw everything including the kitchen sink at the wall and see what sticks. Don't fall for a changing point, don't get distracted. Force people to maintain their original argument.
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition-like enforcement doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
You do realize that there are literally millions upon millions of guns already floating around in the US? If a gangster needs a gun, he doesn't go buy one brand new. He steals it or buys it underground.
Crime and shootings in the US have been dropping steadily since about 1990.
The "examples" of "mass shootings" in the OP list several situations where 1 person was shot.
Rules regarding gun control are not the issue, since the vast majority of these "mass shootings" occurred in places where guns were already prohibited. Colombine High School, the movie theater and the Empire State Building all already ban guns so extra rules banning them would not matter. The issue is enforcement of existing rules.
Also, it is worth noting that mass shooters strongly prefer unarmed victims. You hear about school shootings and "going postal" because schools and post offices ban guns. Even the shooter at the army base in texas snuck a gun into a cafeteria which is one of the places where guns were banned on the base.
You do not hear of criminals sneaking into police stations and shooting up the place because even those with death wishes rarely wish to die in a shoot out. They are trying to assert some control rather than give it all up.
On August 28 2012 03:30 Twinkle Toes wrote: What is motivating this?
Fail gun laws that grant easy access to weapons.
oiii here we go again
Yea, sadly that's the foundation of all those shootings. If noone had weapons, those shootings wouldn't happen (as much). Those crazy people are being encouraged by the media, get a weapon and go at it.
hahaha oh how wrong you are. When somebody wants to shoot people they find a way to get a gun.
I don't buy this argument. If every insane kid who wants to shoot random people would have to spend a lot of effort on acquiring a gun, there'd be a lot less shootings.
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
You do realize that there are literally millions upon millions of guns already floating around in the US? If a gangster needs a gun, he doesn't go buy one brand new. He steals it or buys it underground.
That's what I'm saying. If law enforcement actually put resources into fighting illegal guns instead of drugs, that wouldn't be as possible. Just resigning ourselves to the idea that "oh, well they'll get there guns anyway" is ridiculous. We should actually be fighting the problem of illegal guns instead of making legal guns more widespread (which would in turn lead to a more illegal guns).
On August 28 2012 04:27 Thenerf wrote: Yet again, a place in the US with strict gun control laws.
Actually, thats the stupidest strawman of them all. What use do laws have, if you just need to cross the border into another state where you can buy the gun in the supermarket, with 1000$ worth of ammunition? Its the same as buying a gun in New Jersey when you live in New York - ALL states need to have gun control, otherwise its just retarded and pointless.
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
You do realize that there are literally millions upon millions of guns already floating around in the US? If a gangster needs a gun, he doesn't go buy one brand new. He steals it or buys it underground.
And gun making is as old as the US itself. Unlike in Europe its very common for the average Joe here to have equipment for metal working and the skills to use said equipment. If a person could make 20k for everyone gun they produced, a lot of people I know would quit their jobs and focus and their new "hobby".
On August 28 2012 04:11 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Praetorial wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote: Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools...
I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security.
We have these things called licenses...and ID checks...
because when you have ids and licences, you can't shoot pr be shot. lol you're a funny guy. thanks i had a good laugh.
Banning weapons would cause only one thing - only the bad guys would be able to get one. I don't think weapon amount in the country has anything to do with the amount of shootings - look at Switzerland, almost every house has a weapon there. Yet it's considered one of the safest countries in the world. I think You have to find another source for these shootings in USA...
Maybe because they dont have that cowboy-attitude.
Maybe its because gun ownership can exist with gun control.
Guns are common but they are (edit: generally) illegal to carry unless you are an active duty member of the armed services. Comparing the gun laws of the two countries with a blatant 1 sentence strawman ignores a huge number of relevant differences.
The argument that the supply of guns can't be restricted is also void of substance or truth. If murderers and such could always easily get guns than the cartels wouldn't need to buy guns in the U.S. and ship them to Mexico.
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
You do realize that there are literally millions upon millions of guns already floating around in the US? If a gangster needs a gun, he doesn't go buy one brand new. He steals it or buys it underground.
And gun making is as old as the US itself. Unlike in Europe its very common for the average Joe here to have equipment for metal working and the skills to use said equipment. If a person could make 20k for everyone gun they produced, a lot of people I know would quit their jobs and focus and their new "hobby".
No, it's not common at all. They'd need a machine shop to produce anything close to an effective firearm (and by effective, I mean accurate withing a few meters).
On August 28 2012 04:11 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Praetorial wrote:
On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote: Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools...
I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security.
We have these things called licenses...and ID checks...
because when you have ids and licences, you can't shoot pr be shot. lol you're a funny guy. thanks i had a good laugh.
Banning weapons would cause only one thing - only the bad guys would be able to get one. I don't think weapon amount in the country has anything to do with the amount of shootings - look at Switzerland, almost every house has a weapon there. Yet it's considered one of the safest countries in the world. I think You have to find another source for these shootings in USA...
Maybe because they dont have that cowboy-attitude.
Maybe its because gun ownership can exist with gun control.
Guns are common but they are (edit: generally) illegal to carry unless you are an active duty member of the armed services. Comparing the gun laws of the two countries with a blatant 1 sentence strawman ignores a huge number of relevant differences.
The argument that the supply of guns can't be restricted is also void of substance or truth. If murderers and such could always easily get guns than the cartels wouldn't need to buy guns in the U.S. and ship them to Mexico.
The problem is, they don't really want gun control. They just use that word for convenience. What they really want is complete gun prohibition, except for the government of course.
On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote: I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding
This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
You do realize that there are literally millions upon millions of guns already floating around in the US? If a gangster needs a gun, he doesn't go buy one brand new. He steals it or buys it underground.
And gun making is as old as the US itself. Unlike in Europe its very common for the average Joe here to have equipment for metal working and the skills to use said equipment. If a person could make 20k for everyone gun they produced, a lot of people I know would quit their jobs and focus and their new "hobby".
Do you have any idea how impossible what you're suggesting is? You don't just need "metal working equipment" to make a gun. And if you're suggesting that they make some sort of makeshift weapon, then what is to stop some guy in Sweden from buying ingredients to make a bomb, and blowing up whatever he wanted? Your argument makes no sense to me....
The question is what makes these people so batshit crazy they want to shoot their fellow students/ colleagues? Don't really follow this stuff too much but someone must have done some proper research right? All I've seen is knee-jerk reactions like blaming the vidya games, rock 'n roll, bullying etc.
EPT
