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On August 28 2012 04:02 Zandar wrote:
Lets allow everyone to have a gun, then be surprised people use them, then build metal detectors at schools...
I'll probably never understand the way how most people in the USA think about guns and security.
You should come visit one of our innercity public schools. Then you will.
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It's more that the media is covering this stuff than anything else because for a lot of these smaller killings, while horrible, would normally be put to the backburner or left to local news only if there was more 'national' news, watch as the moment that Obama says or does something wrong so that the Conservative news media can attack it, all of this news will disappear, and all you'll hear about is how Obama mispronounced some dudes name, or that his birth certificate had a spelling error.
I don't think there's any higher outrage of killings, just last week 3 people were killed in my home town, but not a single news source picked it up except the city news itself. This is typical, I think right now the news media is just realizing that people are latching onto this 'type' of news more, and are thus reporting on it because it gets them more views/hits on their websites.
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I didn't expect Sweden to be #16 and quite frankly I have just stopped trusting statistics. Either way, you can't expect people who are afraid of something to assess* policy rationally.
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On August 28 2012 06:13 Thenerf wrote:I didn't expect Sweden to be #16 and quite frankly I have just stopped trusting statistics. Either way, you can't expect people who are afraid of something to asses policy rationally.
So what do you trust?
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On August 28 2012 04:31 BlackPanther wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 04:04 Trevoc wrote:
I should also add that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll get a gun regardless of the laws surrounding This is such a ridiculous idea. If law enforcement actually put more resources into cracking down on illegal guns in the US, there wouldn't be this argument. Before someone says how prohibition-like enforcement doesn't work, guns are not the same as alcohol and marijuana. They require lots of manufacturing, certainly beyond any individual's capability to produce (unlike alcohol or marijuana).
If I can get a carton of name brand cigarettes imported to the US at $15 a pop (which is a $10,000 fine per carton if caught) then I can most likely find a way to get a gun if I really want one.
Just some food for thought.
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you know that the US (amongst many other countries) are not listed in this statistic because it is from an european institute?
In 2006 there were 206 murders in Germany, and it has slightly more than 1/4 of the population of the US (which is crazy if you compare the size of the country). So it does not depend on the amount of people living together.
According to this site:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
in 2006 there have been 17,030 cases of murders in the US. So if i calculated correctly, the US should be at around 54 killed people per 1 million inhabitants. Now go compare to the other western european countries
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On August 28 2012 06:04 Luzbeda wrote:Show nested quote +
For me personally, as a gun owner(no guns in my house though), I kind of feel like your just assuming stuff about Americans here. I can't say your assumptions are wrong based on my personal experience alone, but I grew up and was taken shooting both target shooting, skeet and trap shooting with my grandfather. I was not taught at any point that guns are fun toys, I was taught to respect guns, and that if handled properly there is nothing too fear from them.
I personally would be fine if guns were supposed to be kept at ranges, if it was harder to get guns, and if you were traveling between ranges etc, they should not also have ammo for them in the vehicle.
Basically nobody has proven to me that guns are good for self defense, my grandfather and dad kept bats by the bed for self defense even though they own guns. Why, because it's silly to think they had enough training or experience too use a gun vs a criminal in a real situation(my grandfather had some idpa experience not sure on full details), and guns were kept in the safe, not next to the bed.
It scares me people do or want to carry concealed or not concealed weapons with the intent of self defense, Trained police officers hit 9 people with ricochet and shrapnel in NY can't imagine what civilians with firearms in a crowd would do, imagine you hear gun shots in a crowd, everyone draws weapons, they would all shoot each other..
Education is what separates your experience with firearms from others'. I also own a gun, a side-by-side shotgun my father gave me when I was learning to hunt as a child. It is still at my parent's house in a safe, unused for the past 20 or so years because I didn't actually like hunting. Just not my idea of fun. I hunted with my dad when I was young. I shot small animals and then skinned and ate them (creepy, right?). I didn't enjoy it, dead things are kind of gross, and once you have actually seen the power of a gun on a living creature you are far less likely to misuse it, or use it at all (my opinion). If everybody was taught responsible use of a gun I wouldn't have such an issue with the general public having such easy access to them, especially handguns which aren't even legal to hunt with. It might shock you (sarcasm) that most people have not had appropriate firearms training and are not buying guns for responsible reasons during times of lucidity and reponsibility. When I read pages like this I am scared by how few people actually speak from experience. I agree with your post almost entirely, there is an intelligent middle ground between Red Dead Redemption and Hello Kitty Island Adventure that is not impossible to achieve.
not to be an ass or anything but i just want to point out that there are people where if they saw the power...well that is what makes it attractive.
guns itself is a game changing technology.
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It is all a silly argument anyway, gun owners in the United States are not going to give up their guns. Personally I am constantly confused by the attitude that a human being should be told whether or not he/she can carry a tool with which to protect themselves.
There is a gun for every man, woman, and child in this country. The overwhelming majority obey the laws and don't harm others, sometimes unhinged people get ahold of weapons and use them to harm others. It is absolutely the minority.
It doesn't matter if the US has 17k murders or 170k murders, law abiding citizens should not ever be asked to give up the ownership or use of an item just because other people break the law.
The benefits of an armed populace far outweigh the negatives. Guns are used by law abiding citizens in this country to prevent an estimated two million crimes a year.
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On August 28 2012 06:23 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:13 Thenerf wrote:I didn't expect Sweden to be #16 and quite frankly I have just stopped trusting statistics. Either way, you can't expect people who are afraid of something to asses policy rationally. So what do you trust?
Science, facts...etc
Nearly all statistics fall into one of 3 categories:
1) Heavily Biased
2) Poorly Implemented
3) False or Irrational conclusions
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On August 28 2012 06:45 Thenerf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:23 RageBot wrote:On August 28 2012 06:13 Thenerf wrote:I didn't expect Sweden to be #16 and quite frankly I have just stopped trusting statistics. Either way, you can't expect people who are afraid of something to asses policy rationally. So what do you trust? Science, facts...etc
Statistics can be and generally are a tool of science. Facts are oftentimes based on statistics.
Nearly all statistics fall into one of 3 categories:
1) Heavily Biased
2) Poorly Implemented
3) False or Irrational conclusions
Your "nearly all" is your attempt at a statistic. Percentage of "almost 100%". You're guilty of what you hate, and you disregard the people who do statistics right, perhaps because of your inability to do it right.
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The reasons behind the amount of gun violence increasing in the past 3 decades may very well correlate with the amount of poverty growing in the states and the failing of it's education. People kill people, guns do not and as much as I dislike the American policy on gun control I would put my weight behind the argument pertaining to poverty/poor education/no future being more related to these shootings than the control of guns.
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On August 28 2012 06:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
The reasons behind the amount of gun violence increasing in the past 3 decades may very well correlate with the amount of poverty growing in the states and the failing of it's education. People kill people, guns do not and as much as I dislike the American policy on gun control I would put my weight behind the argument pertaining to poverty/poor education/no future being more related to these shootings than the control of guns.
There's a very good TED episode about this.
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html
Social inequality is bad.
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On August 28 2012 06:45 Bulldog654 wrote:
It is all a silly argument anyway, gun owners in the United States are not going to give up their guns. Personally I am constantly confused by the attitude that a human being should be told whether or not he/she can carry a tool with which to protect themselves.
There is a gun for every man, woman, and child in this country. The overwhelming majority obey the laws and don't harm others, sometimes unhinged people get ahold of weapons and use them to harm others. It is absolutely the minority.
It doesn't matter if the US has 17k murders or 170k murders, law abiding citizens should not ever be asked to give up the ownership or use of an item just because other people break the law.
The benefits of an armed populace far outweigh the negatives. Guns are used by law abiding citizens in this country to prevent an estimated two million crimes a year.
You are giving up lots of liberties because other people break the law with it. They became laws when the numbers pointed towards a bad influence on society. It was deemed worthy to regulate so should guns. You know the guy that invented one of the first kind of explosives believed it would be used to make an outer layer that could blow up when invaders came hence scaring them of and not coming at all. Has anyone ever been more wrong. You are making the same argument he did.
I do agree with you that gun owners won't give up their guns but i am not confused but scared by the attitudes that insist on keeping a populace armed
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On August 28 2012 06:59 henkel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:45 Bulldog654 wrote:
It is all a silly argument anyway, gun owners in the United States are not going to give up their guns. Personally I am constantly confused by the attitude that a human being should be told whether or not he/she can carry a tool with which to protect themselves.
There is a gun for every man, woman, and child in this country. The overwhelming majority obey the laws and don't harm others, sometimes unhinged people get ahold of weapons and use them to harm others. It is absolutely the minority.
It doesn't matter if the US has 17k murders or 170k murders, law abiding citizens should not ever be asked to give up the ownership or use of an item just because other people break the law.
The benefits of an armed populace far outweigh the negatives. Guns are used by law abiding citizens in this country to prevent an estimated two million crimes a year. You are giving up lots of liberties because other people break the law with it. They became laws when the numbers pointed towards a bad influence on society. It was deemed worthy to regulate so should guns. You know the guy that invented one of the first kind of explosives believed it would be used to make an outer layer that could blow up when invaders came hence scaring them of and not coming at all. Has anyone ever been more wrong. You are making the same argument he did. I do agree with you that gun owners won't give up their guns but i am not confused but scared by the attitudes that insist on keeping a populace armed
well dude i dont want the british to come back and try to invade us again.
pfft i will keep my arms to make sure dem redcoats and lobsterbacks don't just invade my americuh
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On August 28 2012 07:01 heroyi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:59 henkel wrote:On August 28 2012 06:45 Bulldog654 wrote:
It is all a silly argument anyway, gun owners in the United States are not going to give up their guns. Personally I am constantly confused by the attitude that a human being should be told whether or not he/she can carry a tool with which to protect themselves.
There is a gun for every man, woman, and child in this country. The overwhelming majority obey the laws and don't harm others, sometimes unhinged people get ahold of weapons and use them to harm others. It is absolutely the minority.
It doesn't matter if the US has 17k murders or 170k murders, law abiding citizens should not ever be asked to give up the ownership or use of an item just because other people break the law.
The benefits of an armed populace far outweigh the negatives. Guns are used by law abiding citizens in this country to prevent an estimated two million crimes a year. You are giving up lots of liberties because other people break the law with it. They became laws when the numbers pointed towards a bad influence on society. It was deemed worthy to regulate so should guns. You know the guy that invented one of the first kind of explosives believed it would be used to make an outer layer that could blow up when invaders came hence scaring them of and not coming at all. Has anyone ever been more wrong. You are making the same argument he did. I do agree with you that gun owners won't give up their guns but i am not confused but scared by the attitudes that insist on keeping a populace armed well dude i dont want the british to come back and try to invade us again. pfft i will keep my arms to make sure dem redcoats and lobsterbacks don't just invade my americuh
hehe why worry about that when your government spends more money on military then the next top 7 I believe combined. I understand your point but i find it a very weak one. Different surroundings i guess.
Done here, you are completely right, enjoy
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On August 28 2012 06:52 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
The reasons behind the amount of gun violence increasing in the past 3 decades may very well correlate with the amount of poverty growing in the states and the failing of it's education. People kill people, guns do not and as much as I dislike the American policy on gun control I would put my weight behind the argument pertaining to poverty/poor education/no future being more related to these shootings than the control of guns. There's a very good TED episode about this. http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.htmlSocial inequality is bad.
Yes exactly, I haven't watched that (I will get around to it tonight) but the argument against gun control and it being the cause of the violence almost seems like an unintelligent cop out placing the blame on a specific avenue where in actuality the entirety of the blame is completely resting on the American people and it's government for not aiding these issues more aggressively, they seem rather passive and almost non-interested to right their situation, complaisant if you will. I think that things are going to get a lot worse in the States before they become better, there just isn't any money in the hands of the people with comparison to what it use to be.
That country also happens to be the news HUB of the entire world (especially Western half) and has a population of 360 million people. There may be some room for understanding why that is the case, this is also an American based website with the majority of users being from US or Canada (although yes many are from around the world, there is no where that has the same amounts of numbers as the States specifically has on this site).
Shouldn't jump to conclusions so easily, evidence is good but meaning behind that data is more important.
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The problem in the US is that they have terrible control.
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You can legally own a gun in most countries.
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On August 28 2012 07:05 henkel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 07:01 heroyi wrote:On August 28 2012 06:59 henkel wrote:On August 28 2012 06:45 Bulldog654 wrote:
It is all a silly argument anyway, gun owners in the United States are not going to give up their guns. Personally I am constantly confused by the attitude that a human being should be told whether or not he/she can carry a tool with which to protect themselves.
There is a gun for every man, woman, and child in this country. The overwhelming majority obey the laws and don't harm others, sometimes unhinged people get ahold of weapons and use them to harm others. It is absolutely the minority.
It doesn't matter if the US has 17k murders or 170k murders, law abiding citizens should not ever be asked to give up the ownership or use of an item just because other people break the law.
The benefits of an armed populace far outweigh the negatives. Guns are used by law abiding citizens in this country to prevent an estimated two million crimes a year. You are giving up lots of liberties because other people break the law with it. They became laws when the numbers pointed towards a bad influence on society. It was deemed worthy to regulate so should guns. You know the guy that invented one of the first kind of explosives believed it would be used to make an outer layer that could blow up when invaders came hence scaring them of and not coming at all. Has anyone ever been more wrong. You are making the same argument he did. I do agree with you that gun owners won't give up their guns but i am not confused but scared by the attitudes that insist on keeping a populace armed well dude i dont want the british to come back and try to invade us again. pfft i will keep my arms to make sure dem redcoats and lobsterbacks don't just invade my americuh hehe why worry about that when your government spends more money on military then the next top 7 I believe combined. I understand your point but i find it a very weak one. Different surroundings i guess. Done here, you are completely right, enjoy
pretty sure its more than 7 lol...
oh man that just made me sad.
surprisingly this is still a very popular argument people still raise and ironically the only reason why the second amendment of bearing arms drafted
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EPT
