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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 133

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SausageLinks
Profile Joined December 2010
United States93 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 03:02:21
January 12 2012 03:01 GMT
#2641
about 28. Rc6 Rc2:

+ Show Spoiler +
trading would be bad. it advances their pawn during the trade and we have no way to stop it without material loss. wouldn't 29. Rxa3 immediately be winning, though? unless there's a tactic I'm not seeing here.
n00b never die
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 12 2012 03:15 GMT
#2642
On January 12 2012 12:01 SausageLinks wrote:
about 28. Rc6 Rc2:

+ Show Spoiler +
trading would be bad. it advances their pawn during the trade and we have no way to stop it without material loss. wouldn't 29. Rxa3 immediately be winning, though? unless there's a tactic I'm not seeing here.
Yeah, it's the same tactic that TheRidd suggested in this post.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
January 12 2012 04:34 GMT
#2643
Ok + Show Spoiler +
First of all, I want to know why *if* we play 28. Rc6, and black plays 28. ... Rc2 why 29. Rxc2 is bad?

This is all assuming 28. ... Rc2 which I think would be a terrible move for black imo. In every theoretical line I've played through on my lunch breaks, black just seems to be in a superior position at this point in the game. I do not see black needing to play for a draw at all. White, maybe, but black has more tricks up his sleeve.

What white would like to do (realistically), in order of importance are: 1) trade his knight for a bishop 2) relieve black of his pawns.
What black would like to do is: 1) force a favorable trade with the passed pawn 2) trade black bishops to gain a mobility advantage 3) force a random mate.

With that in mind why would black try a random trade with 28. ... Rc2 when that rook is half the reason the position is as scary as it is right now?

Ok... let's say he goes for it, what is black going to do with 29. Rxc2??? 29. ... dxc2? Then 30. Nb3. Black can then 30. ... Bxa3 and "threaten" promotion, but there is nothing to gain for it. I really do not see much of a way for black to force the pawn through in this position, and stands to lose the game here. Maybe this is a move to make white panic where Rxa6 leads to mate, but we have how many people playing white and 3 days to make a move? This isn't speed chess. I doubt 28. ... Rc2 heavily.

That said, I am torn about what *to* do. I don't much like the look of Rc6 or Rc7+, I think the rook still needs to help on defense at the moment. I like it less than before, but I still think my vote goes to Nf3. I think it sets up to snipe the d-pawn (which really is the main threat right now) better than any other options. And the lack of any negative feedback (despite being mostly because it has been unexplored) makes it seem to me to be the most attractive. I don't have a line for an argument to convince anyone else to vote for this as I mostly played around with it before the last vote, and found it attractive then, and now I've been devoting my time to figuring out why I don't like the other proposed moves.


Anywho, my vote again is for Nf3.
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
January 12 2012 04:44 GMT
#2644
I can't believe my move is going to win lol
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
January 12 2012 09:17 GMT
#2645
On January 12 2012 13:44 Bill Murray wrote:
I can't believe my move is going to win lol


Ugh...we arent winning by that much lol. We are doing well but it way to early to call. It the late game and it the most complex part part
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4727 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 10:07:03
January 12 2012 10:04 GMT
#2646
Ok regarding 28.Rc6 vs 28.g2-g4
+ Show Spoiler +
the line where we play 28.Rc6 directly just looks too dangerous:
28.Rc6 Rc2 and we have to trade rocks and therefore have the pawn on c2, where it is vastly uncomfortable and I would dare say unstoppable. We cannot play this line in my opinion
If we are not trading, we can move our king 29. Kf2 Rxc6 30.dxc Kxc6, and we can advance our king more to the center 31. Kf3 Lxa3 32. Ke4 Lb4 and I see an advantage for black, but maybe not a losing one.

28.g2-g4 Rc2 29.Rb1 Here black will most likely utilize his dark squared bishop. There are several possibilities, I will just follow the one that most seem most afraid off: 29... Lxa3 30.Kf2 and we are getting stronger in the center, our king is freed and the black pawn is still on d3 and we can pin it there a long time longer, since we have a lot of protection in the center and now can possibly play Se4 later (which cannot be shut down by f6-f5 anymore because of g2-g4 earlier), and still have d2 covered with at least two pieces (potentially three with the king, though Lc5 is always a possibility for black) with theoretical pressure on the pawn on f6, which we probably won't be able to take in quite some time without compromising our defenses. We have a strong presence on the B-line, so the bishops cannot move there and if black wants to exchange rocks, he has to come to our line and cannot take with the pawn, so it stays on the third row.

However, this is mostly fighting for a draw. I don't see much winning-potential left in our position. g2-g4 gives us a better structured defence and a stronger center. And the pwan on a3 is lost either way in my opinion.


Long story short, my vote stays at: 28.g2-g4 (Changing the vote 4 times in one day is fun). I don't see a better move.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-13 00:37:21
January 12 2012 21:34 GMT
#2647
I'm in favor of changing my vote to 28.g2-g4, even though it is more passive, but it's my first vote so i'll place it safe.

Vote: 28: g2-g4 + Show Spoiler +
I agree that a rook swap would be bad thanks to his d pawn, but his tactic is to promote the D anyway, so he will go for a trade. Perhaps if we set the initiative, looking over the board again...Yeah the Bishop check onto our king and the rook moving down is a legitimate mate threat which can be alleviated by g2-g4. I think it's a safe move.
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
January 13 2012 04:40 GMT
#2648
Im changing my vote to 28. Abstain. Haven't been following for the past couple of days so I won't take part in this vote.
133 221 333 123 111
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 03:23:14
January 14 2012 03:19 GMT
#2649
Let's call this...

over

...now. I'm gonna recount all the votes since my last messages and revise my ideas shortly and move tonight. If for some reason the votes happen to be even I'll have to decided a tiebreaker and open it up again or something.

Edit: It's worth noting though that after the first eight vote there were four candidates with two votes each.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 03:35:32
January 14 2012 03:33 GMT
#2650
Well it's a draw.

Three votes on:
Rc7, Kf1

Two votes on:
Rc6, Nf3, g4

One vote on:
Kf2 (and abstain)

With zero vote on the earlier:
Ne4

It's very nice that we had seven candidates actually, but this doesn't solve the problem of the draw. And since the votes are this diverse I don't think I can completely ban the moves with fewer votes from the competition either.

I think I will send everyone a PM about the situation. Reply here or in a PM. After at most a day - or if a move reaches, say five-six votes I will close it all down.

I don't think it would be fair if I randomized or influenced the outcome in any manner. Personally I would prefer tiebreaker votes sent to me in PMs, as to keep up the tension, but you voting here is 'open' and more than fine as well.

Edit: I finally got around to expertise a lot with Mathematica's 3D graphs. Some of them looks awesome, so I'll try to make 3D graphs for the new 960 random match at least. I think it's good news. Me loves me some nice curves.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 14 2012 03:52 GMT
#2651

[image loading]

[image loading]


With that it's open again... for a while.
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
January 14 2012 04:19 GMT
#2652
28.Kf1
God Mode: Alt+F4
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 05:19:37
January 14 2012 04:21 GMT
#2653
On January 07 2012 18:58 Malinor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2012 13:38 hp.Shell wrote:
27. Rc7 wins a pawn. + Show Spoiler +
(...Kd8 28. d6 Bf8 29. Rxh7) (...Ke8 28. d6 Bd8 29. Rc6)


What about...
+ Show Spoiler +
27.Rc7 Kd8 28.d6 Bd6 29. Bxd6 Rxd2
That position is probably lost. 30.Rxh2 Re2 and we are doomed in my opinion.

+ Show Spoiler +
27.Rc7 Kd8 28.d6 Bd6 29. Bxd6 Rxd2 30. Bf4 Re2 31. Rc6
(...Bb5 32. Rd6+ Kc8 33.
white to play
[image loading])
+ Show Spoiler +
Here I suggest 33. a4
(...Bxa4 34. Rxd3)
(...Bc4 34. Rd4 Ba6 35. Rd6 ... eventually we move Kf1 I suppose, or the g-h pawns)
(...Ba6 34. same as above)



(...d2 32. Bxd2
black to play
[image loading])


Looks kinda favorable to me.

Keeping my vote on 28. Rc7.

Everyone not voting Rc7: this line prevents black from promoting, afaik.
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 06:34:19
January 14 2012 06:23 GMT
#2654
On January 14 2012 13:21 hp.Shell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2012 18:58 Malinor wrote:
On January 07 2012 13:38 hp.Shell wrote:
27. Rc7 wins a pawn. + Show Spoiler +
(...Kd8 28. d6 Bf8 29. Rxh7) (...Ke8 28. d6 Bd8 29. Rc6)


What about...
+ Show Spoiler +
27.Rc7 Kd8 28.d6 Bd6 29. Bxd6 Rxd2
That position is probably lost. 30.Rxh2 Re2 and we are doomed in my opinion.

+ Show Spoiler +
27.Rc7 Kd8 28.d6 Bd6 29. Bxd6 Rxd2 30. Bf4 Re2 31. Rc6
(...Bb5 32. Rd6+ Kc8 33.
white to play
[image loading])
+ Show Spoiler +
Here I suggest 33. a4
(...Bxa4 34. Rxd3)
(...Bc4 34. Rd4 Ba6 35. Rd6 ... eventually we move Kf1 I suppose, or the g-h pawns)
(...Ba6 34. same as above)



(...d2 32. Bxd2
black to play
[image loading])


Looks kinda favorable to me.

Keeping my vote on 28. Rc7.

Everyone not voting Rc7: this line prevents black from promoting, afaik.


+ Show Spoiler +
Why are yall predicting him to do Kd8 afterward? Ke8 seems far superior. Because he have the option of moving his bishop to d8 for superior position. Also he be moving to support his other 2 pawn on the right side.


anyways, I guess I will switch my vote to 28.Kf1 now then. Since I prefer it over Rc7 which I believe will lead to nothing advantageous but I still think this move is too passive and prefer Nf3 but ill check on it again in a few day and see wats up.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
January 14 2012 11:28 GMT
#2655
Switching my vote to Kf1
:)
Goolpsy
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark301 Posts
January 14 2012 13:23 GMT
#2656
Rc7
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4727 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-14 23:09:16
January 14 2012 22:45 GMT
#2657
28.Kf1 then.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
January 14 2012 23:34 GMT
#2658
28.Kf1
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 15 2012 03:15 GMT
#2659
It looks settled on Kf1 at the moment. I can't use my desktop PC (the one where all the excel files and everything is saved to) at the moment, so I will close it and post my reply as soon as I can, but maybe only tomorrow.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 16 2012 02:47 GMT
#2660
Okay updated everything.

Next round is on the go!

Sorry for all the delays, but at least now we can say Kf1 has a decisive majority I think.

PS: Just out of interest, did you expect that reply or did I succeeded at surprising you?
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