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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 135

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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 17 2012 19:54 GMT
#2681
Haven't done this for a while, but:
Move 29 votes

+ Show Spoiler [votes] +
29. Ke1: 1 (qrs, Zen5034)
29. Rc7+: 4 (hp.Shell, ApocAlypsE007, Avaryroro, qrs)
29. Nc4: 1 (SheaR619)

+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]

6 voters so far.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 17 2012 20:23 GMT
#2682
Responded, gonna bring it here too though:

In response to

+ Show Spoiler +
29. Ke1 Bd8,

I proposed 30. Ne4, which is no good because of a rook fork that I missed. So I say move it to the other side with 30. Nb3
Jaedong!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 17 2012 22:15 GMT
#2683
On January 18 2012 05:23 Zen5034 wrote:
Responded, gonna bring it here too though:

In response to

+ Show Spoiler +
29. Ke1 Bd8,

I proposed 30. Ne4, which is no good because of a rook fork that I missed. So I say move it to the other side with 30. Nb3
Responded to you on the tree again (on pages 29... and 30.). In short, I don't think the new plan works out either. In fact, I'm becoming more and more convinced that we need + Show Spoiler +
our Knight to play defense for the foreseeable future.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
January 18 2012 00:09 GMT
#2684
29. Rc7+
133 221 333 123 111
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 18 2012 00:47 GMT
#2685
I may have found a solution.

Jaedong!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 18 2012 01:06 GMT
#2686
On January 18 2012 09:47 Zen5034 wrote:
I may have found a solution.
I believe I have unsolved it again.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 18 2012 02:49 GMT
#2687
Guess it won't matter much lol, but I replied anyway.

Now the question is.. what to do after + Show Spoiler +
Kd8
?
Jaedong!
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 18 2012 03:00 GMT
#2688
It's awesome seeing this spring back into life again.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 18 2012 03:01 GMT
#2689
On January 18 2012 11:49 Zen5034 wrote:
Guess it won't matter much lol, but I replied anyway.
Yeah, I replied to your reply. I'm pretty sure that the position you posted is lost.

Now the question is.. what to do after + Show Spoiler +
Kd8
?
Do you mean if Black plays that in response to 29. Rc7+? If that's what you mean, then a) + Show Spoiler +
I think that Black's better move is 29...Ke8, allowing him to play ...Bd8 later on
and b) + Show Spoiler +
In either case, I think our best reply is 30. Ke1
(both of which I posted on the 29. Rc7+ page).
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
January 18 2012 15:34 GMT
#2690
Ke1

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought this was our intention after playing the last move. I don't see what him moving .... Ra2 does to change that. We are giving up that a3 pawn in exchange for getting our king into better position. Rc7 doesn't look bad, it's an option we've had for a while now and I'm still considering it, but for now I like Ke1. I don't think that moving our knight should even be considered. Nb3 is suicide for our rook and Nc4 ends in us giving up a bishop and knight for his forward pawn and bishop.
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-18 17:26:19
January 18 2012 16:15 GMT
#2691
On January 19 2012 00:34 Mash2 wrote:
Ke1

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought this was our intention after playing the last move. I don't see what him moving .... Ra2 does to change that. We are giving up that a3 pawn in exchange for getting our king into better position. Rc7 doesn't look bad, it's an option we've had for a while now and I'm still considering it, but for now I like Ke1. I don't think that moving our knight should even be considered. Nb3 is suicide for our rook and Nc4 ends in us giving up a bishop and knight for his forward pawn and bishop.
I posted on the tree my reasoning for changing my vote to Rc7+ earlier, but I'll put it here, too: + Show Spoiler +
It was and is our intention to play Ke1 (which is the main reason we played Kf1 last move, as you said), and it was and is our intention to play Rc7+ (which is the main reason we played a whole bunch of moves, including Rc1, Bf4, and fxe3 (to keep the Bishop on f4). It's just a question of which to play first, and here I cast my vote for 29. Rc7+ for a simple reason: if we play Rc7+ first, we are guaranteed to be able to follow up with Ke1 on the next move (as Black must respond to the check), whereas if we play Ke1 first, Black can play 29...Bd8 to prevent us from ever playing Rc7.

On the tree, beginning here you can see the discussion between me and Zen over what we can do if after 29. Ke1 Bd8, but as of now the answer seems to be, 'not very much'. If you have a plan, post it!

Edit: Actually, because of you, I started looking at 29. Ke1 again, specifically in that line that worried me, and now I'm no longer sure it's as good for Black as I thought it was... Here's where the line starts, again, and here's as far as I've gotten in analysis. Right now, it's looking to me like we may actually have a decent shot in that line. The only thing about it is that it might take a very drawish turn, if our opponent wants it, and I'm not sure we can stop him. However, so far I haven't yet found a really threatening line for Black.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 18 2012 17:32 GMT
#2692
For now, I'm taking my vote off 29. Rc7+ to make the vote a bit closer, so that people hopefully find the moves worth looking into. Both 29. Rc7 and 29. Ke1 seem like fairly viable options to me so far. There's one line after 29. Ke1 where Ng5 might be able to steer the game to an easy draw, but that doesn't seem like his sort of thing to do. Assuming that he won't be aiming for that line, it's quite possible + Show Spoiler +
that 29. Ke1 and 29. Rc7 simply transpose.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 18 2012 18:17 GMT
#2693
On January 18 2012 10:06 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2012 09:47 Zen5034 wrote:
I may have found a solution.
I believe I have unsolved it again.


Went back for another look, maybe we can try going this way.
Jaedong!
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4735 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-18 18:36:29
January 18 2012 18:36 GMT
#2694
+ Show Spoiler +
I still don't understand why we don't play 29.Rc6 Bb5 30.Rc7+ instead of 29.Rc7+ directly. White's bishop is actually more exposed on the B-line (if we ever get our rock on that line), and doesn't block anything what we could be doing, while on the A-line it prevents any theoretical advancemnt of our pawn and is also better protected in general. It probably doesn't matter too much, but it seems to be a superior sequence to me, and little things do add up.
Would be a waste to vote for it now though, since it will never reach a majority. Well, haven't decided my vote yet.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 18 2012 18:48 GMT
#2695
On January 19 2012 03:17 Zen5034 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2012 10:06 qrs wrote:
On January 18 2012 09:47 Zen5034 wrote:
I may have found a solution.
I believe I have unsolved it again.


Went back for another look, maybe we can try going this way.
Responded to you over there.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 18 2012 18:59 GMT
#2696
On January 19 2012 03:48 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2012 03:17 Zen5034 wrote:
On January 18 2012 10:06 qrs wrote:
On January 18 2012 09:47 Zen5034 wrote:
I may have found a solution.
I believe I have unsolved it again.


Went back for another look, maybe we can try going this way.
Responded to you over there.


Yep... guess there's really no way outta that sequence then. I think Malinor has a point.
Jaedong!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-18 19:12:43
January 18 2012 19:11 GMT
#2697
On January 19 2012 03:36 Malinor wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I still don't understand why we don't play 29.Rc6 Bb5 30.Rc7+ instead of 29.Rc7+ directly. White's bishop is actually more exposed on the B-line (if we ever get our rock on that line), and doesn't block anything what we could be doing, while on the A-line it prevents any theoretical advancemnt of our pawn and is also better protected in general. It probably doesn't matter too much, but it seems to be a superior sequence to me, and little things do add up.
Would be a waste to vote for it now though, since it will never reach a majority. Well, haven't decided my vote yet.
I think it just comes down to + Show Spoiler +
whether we want Black's Bishop on a6 or b5 (or don't care)
. I haven't seen any good evidence one way or the other. You make some theoretical points for preferring it in one place; on the other hand, I could argue for the opposite: + Show Spoiler +
Perhaps Black's Bishop is better on b5: from there it can go to a4, where it controls the Queening square d1. Also, if it stays on a6, maybe we can gain time later on by attacking it then, instead of using that now.


I don't find any of these points especially compelling one way or the other. Most importantly, I haven't seen actual lines where they make a difference. Therefore, I don't know whether or not it's helpful to spend a move on + Show Spoiler +
making Black move his Bishop
, and since I don't know whether it's helpful, I've had no particular reason to vote for 29. Rc6. I'm not against it, though, and if you made a good case for it, I'd certainly consider giving it my vote.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
January 18 2012 19:12 GMT
#2698
Hmm...it seems I'm super late to this party, but can I still join in? If so then my vote is probably Rc6.

+ Show Spoiler +
I read most of the discussion between Ke1 vs. Rc7+ and I don't really like where it was going. With Rc6 we can always follow it with 30. Rc7+.
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-18 19:20:52
January 18 2012 19:20 GMT
#2699
On January 19 2012 04:12 garbanzo wrote:
Hmm...it seems I'm super late to this party, but can I still join in? If so then my vote is probably Rc6.

+ Show Spoiler +
I read most of the discussion between Ke1 vs. Rc7+ and I don't really like where it was going. With Rc6 we can always follow it with 30. Rc7+.
Nah, of course it's not too late.

There is a page for 29. Rc6 on the tree, by the way, though there's not much posted to it right now.

Like I said above, I have nothing particular against Rc6; I think the main thing it's suffered from is a lack of analysts. On the other hand, I don't think that not liking the other two moves is a good reason to play it. + Show Spoiler [elaboration] +
So far, we've only really come up with one basic plan, which is to use Rc7+ to get our Rook to the other side of the board where it can start eating Kingside pawns (at least the h-pawn). Ke1 is a necessary defensive move that we'll probably have to play sooner or later, and Rc6 is an intermezzo move that we can play before Rc7+. It's in no way a substitute for the other two moves, since if 29. Rc6 is our first move, then 30. Rc7+ will presumably be our next and 31. Ke1 will probably follow that.

So the question of whether to play 29. Rc6, as far as I can see, comes down to the question of whether we'd rather have Black's Bishop on b5 or a6. I don't know the answer to that one way or the other.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
January 18 2012 19:32 GMT
#2700
29. Rc6

"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
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