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On January 20 2012 14:23 Ng5 wrote:
Hope it's not too tedious and was good enough for reasoning for you. It was excellent! much more than I expected, especially when we're still in the middle of the game.
29...Bd8 was the reason I eventually abandoned 29. Ke1, though I wasn't sure whether you'd play it. It was starting to look drawish in some of the lines we were looking at.
I don't understand how h7 is out of reach after Ke1 Rxa3 Rc7+. Seemed to me that after ...Kd8/Ke8 d6 Bf8/d8, we could just pick it up directly. Maybe I was underestimating your pressure after that.
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Wow. Analyzed some chess, done a lot of crap from my to do list, dreamed of an imaginary girlfriend (who was insanely hot, by the way - and a redhead - and way more satisfying that any of the interests I've been having for a while now), and for a change just won a quick Desert Strike. Way to go into a long weekend.
And I'm happy you liked it. I might address some more points later tomorrow, but no promises.
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qrs, big props for finding ...Bd8; it would really devastate our position if we allowed it.
+ Show Spoiler [Some chances] +Now, I started to think... How Black can solve the problem of Ba6, which is gonna get harassed by our Rook?
Let's see: White's Rook moves to either force the Bishop to c8 or to make room for a-Pawn to advance:
30. Ra7 Bb5 31. Rb7 Ba4 (actually, 31...Bd7 might be better; if...Ba6 31. Rb6 and the Bishop has to retreat to c8) 32. a6. Now the cluster of pieces on a-file really prevents Black from stopping that lone Pawn. He'll have to play Bc5 to keep up the fight, but I think, before that happens, we can make a 'bridge' for our Pawn by Kf2 and Be3, after which we ought obtain a superior, maybe even winning position.
And if that fails, how about the plan Kf2-Ke3? Since we have c5 covered by a Rook and our Bishop badly wants to be freed from defending the Knight (to enable d6), and also, after making some Pawn moves on the kingside, our Knight could move away for more agressive purposes.
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On January 20 2012 21:17 popzags wrote:
qrs, big props for finding ...Bd8; it would really devastate our position if we allowed it. Thanks. I doubt I would have ever found it if you hadn't challenged whether 29. Ke1 was a good move, making me take a harder look at it. In general, I think our team is much stronger than any of us individually, largely because of that sort of thing.
+ Show Spoiler [Some chances] +Now, I started to think... How Black can solve the problem of Ba6, which is gonna get harassed by our Rook?
Let's see: White's Rook moves to either force the Bishop to c8 or to make room for a-Pawn to advance:
30. Ra7 Bb5 31. Rb7 Ba4 (actually, 31...Bd7 might be better; if...Ba6 31. Rb6 and the Bishop has to retreat to c8) 32. a6. Now the cluster of pieces on a-file really prevents Black from stopping that lone Pawn. He'll have to play Bc5 to keep up the fight, but I think, before that happens, we can make a 'bridge' for our Pawn by Kf2 and Be3, after which we ought obtain a superior, maybe even winning position. This fails to a tactic that's already come up a few times this game: + Show Spoiler +30. Ra7 Ra1+ 31. Kf2 Bc5+
And if that fails, how about the plan + Show Spoiler +Kf2-Ke3? Since we have c5 covered by a Rook and our Bishop badly wants to be freed from defending the Knight (to enable d6), and also, after making some Pawn moves on the kingside, our Knight could move away for more agressive purposes.
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I'm glad Rc7+ had enough votes because I didn't get a chance to change my vote from Rc6. I guess it's all moot now but I was really worried about ...Ke8 in response. The worry was unfounded though since qrs found a solution anyway. 
Anyway, I agree with qrs, we need to do Ke1.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 20 2012 22:35 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 21:17 popzags wrote:
qrs, big props for finding ...Bd8; it would really devastate our position if we allowed it. Thanks. I doubt I would have ever found it if you hadn't challenged whether 29. Ke1 was a good move, making me take a harder look at it. In general, I think our team is much stronger than any of us individually, largely because of that sort of thing. Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler [Some chances] +Now, I started to think... How Black can solve the problem of Ba6, which is gonna get harassed by our Rook?
Let's see: White's Rook moves to either force the Bishop to c8 or to make room for a-Pawn to advance:
30. Ra7 Bb5 31. Rb7 Ba4 (actually, 31...Bd7 might be better; if...Ba6 31. Rb6 and the Bishop has to retreat to c8) 32. a6. Now the cluster of pieces on a-file really prevents Black from stopping that lone Pawn. He'll have to play Bc5 to keep up the fight, but I think, before that happens, we can make a 'bridge' for our Pawn by Kf2 and Be3, after which we ought obtain a superior, maybe even winning position. This fails to a tactic that's already come up a few times this game: + Show Spoiler +30. Ra7 Ra1+ 31. Kf2 Bc5+ Show nested quote +And if that fails, how about the plan + Show Spoiler +Kf2-Ke3? Since we have c5 covered by a Rook and our Bishop badly wants to be freed from defending the Knight (to enable d6), and also, after making some Pawn moves on the kingside, our Knight could move away for more agressive purposes. Well...maybe... but if that's our move, I'd feel bad for playing 28. Kf1 instead of going straight to f2, as Raysalis suggested at the time. I think our mainline plan here is 30. Ke1, which accomplishes what you want to in one move instead of two. Why do you prefer doing it the other way?
Don't think like this. Just one reason why computers are stronger than humans, they don't have these hangups 
What was the reasoning behind Rc7+ on the last move btw?
Edit: found the answer in the last pages.
Continued edit: Ke1 for lack of any better options
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Ahhh, right qrs, ...Bc5+ fork. I'm sure I would already fall for this if I played it over the board.
+ Show Spoiler +OK, but Rook harass on the Bishop will work with our King on e1, so I don't see that much of alternative to 30. Ke1
(as you mentioned Kf2-e3 (or pawn to g4, vacating g2) seem less logical (either losing time or decentralizing the King)
EDIT: Forget the Rook harass, Ra1+, Bc5+ still loses, because the King is forced to f2 (we need some other square for our monarch in case of that check, but ATM, it's unlikely we'll ever have one).
BTW, for a while, a had a mirage that if our Rook stands on b6, we could defend that fork-inducing Rook check with Nb1. Unfortunately, Black responds 30. Rc6 with ...Bb5 (not ...Bb7), when the Bishop uses it's own body to close the file needed for Knight protection.
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On January 20 2012 22:35 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +And if that fails, how about the plan + Show Spoiler +Kf2-Ke3? Since we have c5 covered by a Rook and our Bishop badly wants to be freed from defending the Knight (to enable d6), and also, after making some Pawn moves on the kingside, our Knight could move away for more agressive purposes. Well...maybe...but if that's our move, I'd feel bad for playing 28. Kf1 instead of going straight to f2, as Raysalis suggested at the time. I think our mainline plan here is 30. Ke1, which accomplishes what you want to in one move instead of two. Why do you prefer doing it the other way? Oh, by the way, I forgot about this part for a moment when I wrote that last, but actually 30. Kf2 doesn't just waste a move--it loses a piece, to 30...RxN (31. BxR KxR). That tactic is why 30. Ke1 is almost forced here (we could also move our Rook, but I think it's happy where it is at the moment), and also the main reason our opponent played 29...Kd8 instead of 29...Ke8, I believe.
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30. Ke1
On January 20 2012 12:45 Ng5 wrote:Welcome to the game, guys.
Thanks, I've been lurking for awhile actually haha. I didn't want to say anything because I am mediocre at best but I figure it's a good learning opportunity.
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Ke1
+ Show Spoiler +I've been looking through some of the lines following this move. qrs, do you have an analysis tree already up on this one? I looked back a few pages and couldn't find one. Ra1, from my understanding of it, is downright awful. Rxa3 and Bxa3 don't seem to accomplish too much considering the threat of d6 on the next move. Bb5 probably looks like his best move right? Preparing to protect the d7 square from our pawn advance while still keeping the tension on that diagnal with our king.
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On January 21 2012 00:58 Mash2 wrote:
Ke1
I've been looking through some of the lines following this move. qrs, do you have an analysis tree already up on this one? I looked back a few pages and couldn't find one. The home page of the analysis tree is linked at the top of the OP of this thread. That page links to the current move of the game, and from there you can click your way through whichever line you're interested in (as long as pages have been created for the moves in that line [if they haven't, you can make them yourself!]). The 30. Ke1 page is here. Feel free to post your thoughts on the position there. To address the ones you posted here:
+ Show Spoiler +Ra1, from my understanding of it, is downright awful. Rxa3 and Bxa3 don't seem to accomplish too much considering the threat of d6 on the next move. Bb5 probably looks like his best move right? Preparing to protect the d7 square from our pawn advance while still keeping the tension on that diagnal with our king. + Show Spoiler [my opinion] +I don't know how bad 30...Ra1+ is, but at the least I don't see much point to it for Black. I agree with you that 31. d6 is a threat, but that's why I expect 30...Bxa3, not 30...Bb5. If we play d6 in this position, with his Bishop still on e7, he'll have to play ...Bf8 putting his Bishop out of play. That's the biggest threat I see to d6, actually.
As for the threat of Queening our d-pawn, I know it looks scary, but I don't think it's a real danger to Black yet. We're still not quite in a position to support the pawn all the way to Queening yet, and if we play d7 too soon, the pawn will become a responsibility to our Rook more than a threat to Black.
Besides, even if you are worried (for Black) about the pawn advancing, 30...Bxa3 31. d6 Bb5 gets to the same place as 30...Bb5 d6 31. Bf8 except with the dark-squared Bishop more active and one pawn recaptured.
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+ Show Spoiler +Ahh, thanks for linking it. Yea, you're right, he can't afford to have that bishop trapped back there. Bxa3 does look like the correct response. I'm going to try and finish up some work quickly today so I can spend the last hour looking at that line you have in the analysis tree - specifically the part concerning the "surgical strike" with the rook. That line made me smile. Anyway, nice job with that - very well organized.
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I was looking at the possibility of Nc4 but it looks like the best possible move right now seems to be
30. Ke1
Therefore I am changing my initial post of 30. d6 to 30. Ke1. It seems I was a bit too rash on my decision.
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Hey, I've been tracking the last few moves, but this is the first move I really have any sort of opinion on.
So as of right now out bishop is overextended, leaving us three options: Defend one of the attacked pieces, move the knight, or move the rook.
Moving the knight results in either losses or promotion every time (as far as I can tell).
Moving the rook seems fairly fruitless as far as I can tell...
As for defending the knight or rook with a different piece:
Defending the knight with the king (Ke1) seems like the most solid move so far. I can't see anything bad that comes out of it myself, so it seems like the best move.
I looked at d6 (to defend the rook) for a while but couldn't find anything useful (generally the line resulted in lost pawns and eventually more dramatic losses or a promotion). The line I followed for d6 was: Bishop takes pawn, bishop takes bishop, rook takes knight, king to e1 (attacking rook and also hindering eventual promotion of pawn), rook takes g2... and then anything else that happened beyond that point seemed bad.
However, after playing Ke1 I think d6 would be a very interesting move (I see now this move is discussed in the analysis tree). Even if Bxa3 happens I think it's still probably the most viable move.
So my vote is going to be 30. Ke1
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30. Ke1 You guys points good enough for me, I can't any other moves that are better.
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Check this out too, if you haven't yet. You might find it worth trying. Not that it looks like there's a huge interest. 
Forum.
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What is so bad about Rc6?
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Slightly off topic... I've been playing a few hours a day on chess.com recently and was wondering if anyone was interested in playing a few series. I don't play in OTB tournaments right now so I've lost all my chess friends 
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On January 22 2012 04:49 dnosrc wrote:
What is so bad about Rc6? What's so good about it? Specifically, + Show Spoiler +after 30...Bb5, we will have to move our Rook again and it seems that we have just wasted a move. (Remember, we can't threaten the Bishop again with 31. Rb6 because of 31...Ra1+ 32. Kf2 Bc5+, forking our King and Rook.)
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EPT
