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Thoughts: + Show Spoiler +Can't move our knight, 29. Nb1 Bxa3 loses a pawn. 29. Nc4 ... is same problem. 29. Rc6 ... could be interesting, but idk what to do if ... Bb5. 29. ... Bc8 could also have some interesting follow ups. 29. ... Bb7 wins but he probably won't do this lol. 29. Rc3 insta loses.
So yeah... idk.
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On January 16 2012 11:47 Ng5 wrote: PS: Just out of interest, did you expect that reply or did I succeeded at surprising you? Hard to say, as discussion has fallen off these days. I think I can confidently say that it wasn't the main reply that we expected (that would have been the simple 28...Bxa3) but ...Ra2 is a move that we considered a bit in general. So...mild surprise, I guess?
I'll vote for 29. Ke1 as that seems to be the logical continuation of the 28. Kf1 plan. + Show Spoiler [rationale] +The idea is to strengthen our control of d2 so that our pieces, currently tied to the defense of that square have more flexibility to move. Moves like Rc7+ or Rc6 or Ne4 or Nc4 all ought to be more effective if our pieces don't have to run home at a moment's notice to defend against Black's Queening threat.
Something to note in general is that moving the King off the a7-g1 diagonal has not freed us of Black's various threats involving that diagonal yet. For example, if we played 29. Rc7+ Kd8 30. Rh7?, Black could play 30...Ra1+ to force us back onto the diagonal and then 31...Bc5+ to win the Rook.
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On January 16 2012 12:22 GenesisX wrote:Thoughts: + Show Spoiler +Can't move our knight, 29. Nb1 Bxa3 loses a pawn. 29. Nc4 ... is same problem. 29. Rc6 ... could be interesting, but idk what to do if ... Bb5. 29. ... Bc8 could also have some interesting follow ups. 29. ... Bb7 wins but he probably won't do this lol. 29. Rc3 insta loses.
So yeah... idk. I think we have to resign ourselves to losing at least one pawn here. It's not the end of the world--we're currently up two and we never had a realistic hope of keeping both.
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I'll comment about Bxa3 a few moves later I guess. Don't want to spoil too much too soon.
Edit: Damnit all these chess talks makes me want to go back to ICC and play longer time control games again. See if I can create the same level of play as my blitz screwing around was a few years back.
Hmm... Or I could troll a hobby site again, like last semester...
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29. Nc4
+ Show Spoiler + Moving that Rook, it shows black intention of wanting to do take that pawn with the bishop and attacking the rook there to solidify black position in that area to promote. Since he moved his rook, we can do Nc4 and pressure him with our next move, Nv6+
Even if he take the Knight with the bishop, our rook will still be in good shape because it will be protecting the a5 pawn. Since our last move was Kf1, which I originally protested because by doing that move, we basically gave up those 2 pawns on the left. It will be really hard to defend them now.
Long story short, since we are probably going to lose our 2 a-pawns, we must be aggressive and gain something in return.
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Doesn't any Knight move that isn't Nc4 lead to + Show Spoiler +
I like qrs' idea of:
29. Ke1
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I think every single knight move would lead to the same response from black.
Only daring to say it because there's no way in hell Nb3 or Nc4 would win the vote.
PS: Wait a minute... Nb3 is not considered bad for the spellchecker, while Nc4 is... :/
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On January 17 2012 02:04 Zen5034 wrote:Doesn't any Knight move that isn't Nc4 lead to + Show Spoiler +I like qrs' idea of: 29. Ke1
I dont see why our knight is there. It seems so useless in that position. Even if we move it, it still covering that square. Right now, our knight is just acting like a pawn to defend that 1 pawn from advancing. Even if we move out knight, the pawn cant advance. Or if it can, I dont see it.
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On January 17 2012 11:52 Ng5 wrote: I think every single knight move would lead to the same response from black. Specifically, 29...d2, winning our Rook except in the case where White's move was 29. Nc4 in which case it only wins our Knight or Bishop.
Edit: What you aren't seeing, SheaR, might be the threatened check from the a6 Bishop if the pawn is moved. With a Knight somewhere besides c4, ...d2 leads to discovered check. With a Knight on c4, d2 isn't check, but it pins the Knight.
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IMO there are only two possibilities:
1) 29. Rc7+ straight away 2) 29. Rc6 Bb5 and then either 30. Rb6 or 30. Rc7+ (not sure which one)
I dislike 29. Nc4, closing line for our active Rook, releasing that dangerous Pawn and going into potential pin as well...
God, I forgot about this thread. It surely turned out into exciting lategame!
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On January 17 2012 21:22 popzags wrote: IMO there are only two possibilities:
1) 29. Rc7+ straight away 2) 29. Rc6 Bb5 and then either 30. Rb6 or 30. Rc7+ (not sure which one)
I dislike 29. Nc4, closing line for our active Rook, releasing that dangerous Pawn and going into potential pin as well...
God, I forgot about this thread. It surely turned out into exciting lategame! Nc4 loses a piece straight off, as our esteemed opponent pointed out.
Why isn't Ke1 possible?
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29. Ke1 Bxa3 attacks the Rook and threatens 30...Bb4 with a very unpleasant pin. The only way to prevent it is 30. Rb1, which dislodges our Rook from the c-file, disables a check on 7th rank (b7 is covered by a6 Bishop) and breaks it's coordination with our f4 Bishop. I assumed we have to rush ahead with the Rook, because if Be7 gets too active, we may resign on the spot.
Of course, I hadn't much time to study this position. But I feel that unless you (or someone else) can find a concrete line that solves those problems, I feel that this line is positionally bad for us.
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On January 17 2012 22:19 popzags wrote: 29. Ke1 Bxa3 attacks the Rook and threatens 30...Bb4 with a very unpleasant pin. The only way to prevent it is 30. Rb1, which dislodges our Rook from the c-file, disables a check on 7th rank (b7 is covered by a6 Bishop) and breaks it's coordination with our f4 Bishop. I assumed we have to rush ahead with the Rook, because if Be7 gets too active, we may resign on the spot.
Of course, I hadn't much time to study this position. But I feel that unless you (or someone else) can find a concrete line that solves those problems, I feel that this line is positionally bad for us.
I don't see why that's such an unpleasant pin. + Show Spoiler [long elaboration] +The Knight is defended. It's true that the Knight is immobilized, but it's doing important work where it is: it's blocking the d-pawn from advancing and the Rook from making threats along the second rank. Also, for Black to maintain the pin, he has to limit the mobility of his own Bishop, so gains at most a small edge in mobility from the pin: in exchange for entirely immobilizing a defensive piece which has good reason to sit where it is anyway, he partly immobilizes an offensive piece which has less reason to be tied down.
Meanwhile, if we don't play Ke1, the Knight is stuck anyway (the threat of ...d2 again), not to mention that in some ways the threat of ...Bxa3, ...Bb4 is actually stronger with the King on f1, because Black is actually threatening to capture the Knight, which is only defended by our Bishop so far. I mean, defending the Knight with the King is (as far as I see) the entire purpose of, not only 29. Ke1, but the previous 28. Kf1. If we don't play the former, then what was the point of the latter? (Granted, you weren't involved in the last vote, so you may think it was just a thrown-away move.) Also, how do you plan to respond to that very same Black plan of ...Bxa3, ...Bb4? As far as I see, you're going to have to play Ke1 anyway--only you'll be doing it on Black's terms. In general, when there's a move you know that you're going to have to play down the line, the most flexible thing to do is usually to play it immediately.
I grant you that 29. Ke1 will probably leave the Knight immobilized for a while. As I see it, that's a cost of the position--and one that we'll probably have to pay in any case. By defending the Knight, though, 29. Ke1 gives our other pieces more freedom--particularly our Rook. I actually think that almost all of us on the team agree about our main plan for activity: we want to activate our Rook, with Rc6 and/or Rc7+. The only question is how to go about it.
Then again, it's very possible that our lines overlap, as we can follow up 29. Ke1 with 30. Rc6/Rc7+, and we can follow up 29. Rc7+ with 30. Ke1. I'll have to look into the position to see what the practical differences are between the two move orders, if there is any
edit: OK, here's a small one at least: after 29. Ke1 Bxa3, 30. Rc6 becomes stronger because it forks Black's a6 Bishop and f6 pawn. The same does not hold for 29. Rc6, with a Black Bishop still defending f6.
I should also mention that one of your lines doesn't work: + Show Spoiler +29. Rc6 Bb5 27. Rb6? Ra1+ 28. Kf2 Bc5+ and Black wins the exchange.
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OK, qrs, so we're basically down to either 29. Ke1 or 29. Rc7+
+ Show Spoiler [Some thoughts] +Good that you mentioned Kf1 was played recently - I missed that. Anyway, the more I look at the position, the less I like 29. Rc7+. ATM, I think the c1 rook is needed to cover first rank and, as you pointed out, Rc6 will, in certain positions, lead to a fork on a6 and f6. Meanwhile, 29. Ke1 Bxa3 gives also opportunity to play 30. Kd1, getting out of the pin immediately (or later, depending on circumstances).
So I think we gotta examine the line 29. Ke1 Bb5 instead of 29...Bxa3, since a-pawns will most probably fall anyway and therefore, Black doesn't have to hurry taking them. My general idea would be to play g3, h4 get out of pin with our King ( like I said, maybe Kd1 at some point) and then move away the Knight, when there won't be any Pawn targets behind him to be captured by black Rook. Of course this all works in positions where Black keeps his Rook where it is, but since it's Ng5's best piece, I think it will stay there for a while.
The problem is: where does our Knight belong? It will be very situational: the idea of Nf3-d4-f5 comes to mind, or maybe just Nf3 and sit there if we're gonna be forced to have super-tight control over d2 square. That being said, even worse problem is a placement of our Rook; it's so much weaker than a2 Rook. We would love to exchange those two, but we can't, so this is the reason I wanted to go for Rc7+, which, unfortunately, lacks a viable follow-up.
Sorry for this chaotic response. In general, I agree that 29. Ke1 is a way to go.
P.S. Actually, I just realised that any exchange would improve our position here - if only we could get to them...
+ Show Spoiler [P.P.S.] +29. Rc6 Bb5 27. Rc7+ Kd8 28. Rb7 avoids losing the exchange you mentioned but again exposes the Rook under light-squared's Bishop fire, so I dunno if it's good
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On January 18 2012 00:26 popzags wrote:OK, qrs, so we're basically down to either 29. Ke1 or 29. Rc7++ Show Spoiler [Some thoughts] +Good that you mentioned Kf1 was played recently - I missed that. Anyway, the more I look at the position, the less I like 29. Rc7+. ATM, I think the c1 rook is needed to cover first rank and, as you pointed out, Rc6 will, in certain positions, lead to a fork on a6 and f6. Meanwhile, 29. Ke1 Bxa3 gives also opportunity to play 30. Kd1, getting out of the pin immediately (or later, depending on circumstances).
So I think we gotta examine the line 29. Ke1 Bb5 instead of 29...Bxa3, since a-pawns will most probably fall anyway and therefore, Black doesn't have to hurry taking them. My general idea would be to play g3, h4 get out of pin with our King ( like I said, maybe Kd1 at some point) and then move away the Knight, when there won't be any Pawn targets behind him to be captured by black Rook. Of course this all works in positions where Black keeps his Rook where it is, but since it's Ng5's best piece, I think it will stay there for a while.
The problem is: where does our Knight belong? It will be very situational: the idea of Nf3-d4-f5 comes to mind, or maybe just Nf3 and sit there if we're gonna be forced to have super-tight control over d2 square. That being said, even worse problem is a placement of our Rook; it's so much weaker than a2 Rook. We would love to exchange those two, but we can't, so this is the reason I wanted to go for Rc7+, which, unfortunately, lacks a viable follow-up.
Sorry for this chaotic response. In general, I agree that 29. Ke1 is a way to go.
P.S. Actually, I just realised that any exchange would improve our position here - if only we could get to them... + Show Spoiler [P.P.S.] +29. Rc6 Bb5 27. Rc7+ Kd8 28. Rb7 avoids losing the exchange you mentioned but again exposes the Rook under light-squared's Bishop fire, so I dunno if it's good This is funny: just as you were coming around to my side, I was coming around to yours: I'm changing my vote to 29. Rc7+. Also, I've now updated the Analysis Tree, which had fallen out of date. My current thoughts on the position, including the reason I came around to your point of view are posted on the 28...Ra2 page. Briefly, the move that changed my mind is + Show Spoiler +29. Ke1 Bd8! precluding us from playing 30...Rc7.
About your P.S.: yes, I knew about that method of avoiding the loss of the exchange. Actually, these basic ideas were discussed a couple of pages ago (see here for example). I thought about mentioning that line, but decided that it was pointless in this situation, for the reason that you give + Show Spoiler +it exposes the Rook to the light-squared Bishop's fire again, after which we just lose a tempo moving the Rook again. (In the similar line from a couple of pages ago that I linked to, the situation was different because with the Rook on b2, Rb7 pinned the Bishop.)
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Posted on analysis tree page.
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On January 18 2012 02:36 Zen5034 wrote: Posted on analysis tree page. Thanks! Responded to you there.
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