TL Chess Match 4 - Page 132
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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SausageLinks
United States93 Posts
right now I'm liking 28. Rc6 for the reasons listed last page: it gains initiative and will allow us to push a past pawn. i will agree that 28. Kf1 seems a bit too passive for us right now, and 28. Rc7+ for the most part has already been acknowledged as a bad line. 28. Ne4 seems interesting but Malinor stated, I don't see how the rerouting of the knight would benefit us immediately, if at all. so yeah. my vote right now goes to | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
it doesn't gain initiative, but loses it. After 28...Bb5, White will have spent one move in threatening the Bishop and Black will have spent one move in moving the Bishop out of danger--but now we will need to take another move to save the Rook which is now under attack. That's a free tempo that we've handed to Black. Of course we can technically keep the tempo by playing 29. Rc7+, but that's not much better than the 28. Rc7+ lines. The basic problem with all of these Rook moves is that our Rook is needed for the defense, so moving it to the other side of the board is counter-productive. An important point about this position that I hadn't fully appreciated until liberal pointed out 27...d3 and I started looking at it seriously is that + Show Spoiler + it opened up the a7-g1 diagonal. That gives Black control over the a7 and b6 squares (through the potential fork ...Bc5+), which makes a big difference to how strong our counterplay is. | ||
TheRidd
713 Posts
On January 10 2012 17:05 qrs wrote: The problem with 28. Rc6 (imo) is that + Show Spoiler + it doesn't gain initiative, but loses it. After 28...Bb5, White will have spent one move in threatening the Bishop and Black will have spent one move in moving the Bishop out of danger--but now we will need to take another move to save the Rook which is now under attack. That's a free tempo that we've handed to Black. Of course we can technically keep the tempo by playing 29. Rc7+, but that's not much better than the 28. Rc7+ lines. The basic problem with all of these Rook moves is that our Rook is needed for the defense, so moving it to the other side of the board is counter-productive. An important point about this position that I hadn't fully appreciated until liberal pointed out 27...d3 and I started looking at it seriously is that + Show Spoiler + it opened up the a7-g1 diagonal. That gives Black control over the a7 and b6 squares (through the potential fork ...Bc5+), which makes a big difference to how strong our counterplay is. I agree with qrs. Think for a second, maybe i'm wrong but + Show Spoiler + what if 28.Rc6 and 28. Ra2, then what ? If we capture something, pawn or bishop, it will be mate wont it ? 28.Rc6 28. Ra2 29.Rxc6 29.Bc5 30.Kf1 30.Ra1 . There are of course a couple of moves white can do like block the bishop with his bishop and or put the knight in front of the king, but will only delay the inevitable wont it ? | ||
Mash2
United States132 Posts
On January 10 2012 18:51 TheRidd wrote: I agree with qrs. Think for a second, maybe i'm wrong but + Show Spoiler + what if 28.Rc6 and 28. Ra2, then what ? If we capture something, pawn or bishop, it will be mate wont it ? 28.Rc6 28. Ra2 29.Rxc6 29.Bc5 30.Kf1 30.Ra1 . There are of course a couple of moves white can do like block the bishop with his bishop and or put the knight in front of the king, but will only delay the inevitable wont it ? + Show Spoiler + If we follow that line, it is absolutely mate, you're right. What if we follow that line and don't take the bishop after he moves ... Ra2? Instead we move either our g or h pawn freeing up a space for our king to escape to. This would force him to move his bishop on his next move. Wouldn't that give us tempo? I don't know how this line ends up for us, but it is a possibility. The only other moves I see for him if we move Rc6 would be ... Bb7 which we could move Rc3. Or he could move ... Bb5. We can't move Rb6 pinning his bishop and rook because he could move his dark squared bishop to fork our king and rook on his next move. I think any other move in this line loses tempo like qrs said. Maybe Re6 with the intention of d6 after? | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
I vote for Rc7+. It's an in between move to force the king to a less active square, that's all. I also vote for offer draw. | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
Cheers. | ||
SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
28. Rc7+, Ke8 Pd6, Bd8 Rc6, Bd8xPa5 RxBa6, Ba5xNd2 Bf4xBd2, RxBd2 Ra8+, Kd7 a6, Rx2 a7, d2 Rd8+, KxR a8(promote)+, ?? ok with this variation we are ensured the tempo and PROMOTION FIRST! At the cost of a rook...so ugh what do you guy think? We can potentially check for draw perhaps or does anyone see an opening? I am changing my move to Nf3 + Show Spoiler + because iono what else to do rofl and it put our knight in a more offensive position yet still defend that square. As long as the rook is in the backrow, we are pretty safe to anything and there nothing bad about it. It obvious that black want to play Rc2 soon. This move is also pretty safe against that. | ||
Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Same idea as Kf1 but on a more flexible square | ||
Mash2
United States132 Posts
dont' love it. don't see anything better. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 11 2012 18:52 Raysalis wrote: + Show Spoiler +I am going Kf2 + Show Spoiler + Same idea as Kf1 but on a more flexible square You'd think it's more flexible, but actually, I believe Kf2 is quite a bit less flexible than Kf1. The problem is that it pins our Knight. | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This prevents f6-f5 and therefore gives us the possibility to later play Ne4. While blacks pawn on d3 looks very uncomfortable to us, he cannot threaten to transit it into a queen during the next couple of moves. Especially if we get the knight on e4 and have the bishop still on f4, we might even have some offensive pressure again. 28. Kf1 is simply too slow in my opinion, it takes forever until we get the king in a decent position. 28. Rc7+ Rd8 29. Rc3 could work somehow I guess but I thing it will push us behind. At least that way we have pushed the black king farther away. But I don't think it is a good move at all. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 12 2012 02:18 Malinor wrote: Well, let's see:I am going to change my vote from Kf1 and say 28.g2-g4 + Show Spoiler + This prevents f6-f5 and therefore gives us the possibility to later play Ne4. While blacks pawn on d3 looks very uncomfortable to us, he cannot threaten to transit it into a queen during the next couple of moves. Especially if we get the knight on e4 and have the bishop still on f4, we might even have some offensive pressure again. 28. Kf1 is simply too slow in my opinion, it takes forever until we get the king in a decent position. 28. Rc7+ Rd8 29. Rc3 could work somehow I guess but I thing it will push us behind. At least that way we have pushed the black king farther away. But I don't think it is a good move at all. + Show Spoiler + 28.g2-g4: your proposal 28...Bxa3: I think this is probably Black's default move in this position. Besides picking up the pawn, it sets up a discovered threat to our Rook, and clears the way for ...Bb4, supporting a push of the d-pawn. What do you want to play here? If we play 29. Ne4, Black has 29...Re2, threatening both our Knight and the Rook, and with the threat of ...d3-d2 if both of our pieces flee the area. If we play 29. Rc7+ and go off on an adventure with our Rook, (e.g. 29...Kd8 30. Rxh2) Black threatens ...Bb4 followed, again, by ...d3-d2. I don't love 28. Kf1 much more than you do, but if we don't get another defender to the d-pawn, then our need to stop Black from Queening paralyzes all of our pieces. | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:18 qrs wrote: Well, let's see: + Show Spoiler + 28.g2-g4: your proposal 28...Bxa3: I think this is probably Black's default move in this position. Besides picking up the pawn, it sets up a discovered threat to our Rook, and clears the way for ...Bb4, supporting a push of the d-pawn. What do you want to play here? If we play 29. Ne4, Black has 29...Re2, threatening both our Knight and the Rook, and with the threat of ...d3-d2 if both of our pieces flee the area. If we play 29. Rc7+ and go off on an adventure with our Rook, (e.g. 29...Kd8 30. Rxh2) Black threatens ...Bb4 followed, again, by ...d3-d2. I don't love 28. Kf1 much more than you do, but if we don't get another defender to the d-pawn, then our need to stop Black from Queening paralyzes all of our pieces. + Show Spoiler + My line is 28... Bxa3 29.Rc6 Bb5 30.Rc7+ Kd8. Followed by either 31. Rb7 with options for black, but likely an exchange of rocks. Or 31.Rxh7 Bb4 32.Se4 which would result into a forced position of rock/3pawns versus rock/bishop. How good that is is above my level of play, but it should be somewhat even, and if we can exchange rocks we can at least force a draw. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:31 Malinor wrote: Hmm, interesting. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + My line is 28... Bxa3 29.Rc6 Bb5 30.Rc7+ Kd8. Followed by either 31. Rb7 with options for black, but likely an exchange of rocks. Or 31.Rxh7 Bb4 32.Se4 which would result into a forced position of rock/3pawns versus rock/bishop. How good that is is above my level of play, but it should be somewhat even, and if we can exchange rocks we can at least force a draw. In your second line, (31. Rxh7), Black can play 31...Re2 to force the Knight away before playing ...Bb4, and I don't like our position at all if Black gets to keep the Bishop pair. Your first line (31. Rb7) looks like it might be all right, though. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:31 Malinor wrote: Come to think of it, now that you bring this up, wouldn't your plan work if we play 28. Rc6 as well? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + My line is 28... Bxa3 29.Rc6 Bb5 30.Rc7+ Kd8. Followed by either 31. Rb7 with options for black, but likely an exchange of rocks. Or 31.Rxh7 Bb4 32.Se4 which would result into a forced position of rock/3pawns versus rock/bishop. How good that is is above my level of play, but it should be somewhat even, and if we can exchange rocks we can at least force a draw. We meet 28...Bb5, which I had suggested for Black, with your 29. Rc7+ Kd8 30. Rb7 pinning the Bishop. We meet 28...Ra2, which TheRidd had suggested for Black, with 29. g4, as Mash2 suggested. edit: but what do we do about + Show Spoiler [this Black move?] + 28...Rc2? If we exchange Rooks, I can't see how to hold on to our pawn advantage, although we might have a draw. | ||
Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
Ok so we're playing from Blacks perspective, promising position. I'll edit in an answer after I read the thread and have an understanding of what is the game. @Qrs - Oh Gotcha, are we playing vs a GM level computer? White is in a pickle of a situation. Luckily the Black Q is dorment behind the lines. Guess I'm blind as a bat. *Move* 28. RC6 (Changed vote) Thoughts behind RC6 ---> + Show Spoiler + Reasoning: There is an opportunity for a triple fork, in the Bb5 variation that you pointed out Qrs, unlikely that he will make that move and we will retain our momentum. Also crucially opening up the A lane from the bishop to progress the A5 pawn to put some counter-pressure. if 28... Bb5 29.. Rc7+... Kd8... 30. Rb7.. Thinking of his response to this. Also future potential for Bb8 now that we are on the Bishop diagonal. I gotta get home from work though so, let me know what you think. What else can he do instead of Bb5 is the important question. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:14 Slardar wrote: No, we're White.Ok so we're playing from Blacks perspective, promising position. I'll edit in an answer after I read the thread and have an understanding of what is the game. edit: No, we're playing against a human, Ng5, the guy who started this thread. He's pretty good, though. There are no Queens on the board. There are two Black Bishops and one White Bishop. | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:00 qrs wrote: Come to think of it, now that you bring this up, wouldn't your plan work if we play 28. Rc6 as well? + Show Spoiler + We meet 28...Bb5, which I had suggested for Black, with your 29. Rc7+ Kd8 30. Rb7 pinning the Bishop. We meet 28...Ra2, which TheRidd had suggested for Black, with 29. g4, as Mash2 suggested. edit: but what do we do about + Show Spoiler [this Black move?] + 28...Rc2? If we exchange Rooks, I can't see how to hold on to our pawn advantage, although we might have a draw. I change my vote to 28. Rc6. because it accomplishs nearly the same as my g4 line, and at this point I will not get a majority for that move anyway (besides from that, Rc6 could very well be just the better move) and that way we should get a majority for Rc6. Regarding your feared move... + Show Spoiler + 28...Rc2. I honestly believe that black is in a position to force a draw, and if he plays for it it will just happen. I don't see a clear way for white to push the pawn advantage into a win, only if black is also playing to win. At this point, I would probably take a draw if he offered it. | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
Due to the slow start - I will make my reply on Friday, meaning you'll have the whole Saturday as your first thinking day. You can keep voting till then I will keep my sheets updated. This way you can work as much as you want, guys. | ||
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