|
On March 03 2011 06:55 FQD1911 wrote:
now i'll agree he may not be an MVP, but not elite? c'mon bro....what does he have to do to prove that? his numbers are right on line w/ the MVPs of the league this year (the differentials are 1, 2 most). at this point, i'd put him at top 3 PGs in the league...and w/ the trades, he might be #1 when it's all set and done.
EDIT: i hope they give it to LeBron, b/c if the Bulls & Heat face off, Rose is going to go nuts (just like Hakeem did to D-Rob that year D-Rob got MVP)
which numbers? besides PPG he isn't really up there. Of course comparing him to Dwight and Dirk in terms of FG% would be useless but still. Rose is really good. But when talking MVP numbers he isn't even close. Check 08-09, 09-10 and look at Wade, Lebron, and Kobe's numbers. Look at Chris Paul's 06-07 numbers. Hell look at his numbers this year.
Like I told you before the reason Chicago wins isn't because of Rose. He is a big part of it but their defense kills teams. Of course Michael Wilbon is goggling Rose's nuts hard so loud that the people pointing this out can't be heard. It's very hard for a score first PG that shoots 44.5% to really be on an MVP level. The one thing he clearly has over everyone is his ability to score. He's getting better, fast at other aspects of the game but he isn't there yet.
|
On March 03 2011 07:01 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:55 FQD1911 wrote:
now i'll agree he may not be an MVP, but not elite? c'mon bro....what does he have to do to prove that? his numbers are right on line w/ the MVPs of the league this year (the differentials are 1, 2 most). at this point, i'd put him at top 3 PGs in the league...and w/ the trades, he might be #1 when it's all set and done.
EDIT: i hope they give it to LeBron, b/c if the Bulls & Heat face off, Rose is going to go nuts (just like Hakeem did to D-Rob that year D-Rob got MVP) I'll let Ace speak for himself but by most advanced metrics, Chris Paul is far far superior to D-Rose (who I totally respect.) I also think the Deron Williams is a superior player but I don't think everyone agrees with me. Rose has one hyper elite skill: he can get to the rim. The rest of his game is really good but he is certainly not MVP. On the elite thing, I think he can be thought of as "elite," but that term is kinda weird to throw around. EDIT: Lebron is the best player in the world, Derrick Rose is somewhere in the 10-15 range. No contest.
Chris Paul certainly has the "title" as best PG in the world. I would say, that no PG in the league is really that far ahead of the others though. Lebron and Dwight are the two most uniquely gifted players in the league, and no PG is really in the top 10 in that respect.
I'd give MVP to Howard, he is dragging a cast that is as bad as the Cavs to the playoffs. The Heat/Bulls/Thunder would all be there without the #1 guy.
|
I think in terms of all around skill none of them touch CP3. Problem is he's been hurt all year. When healthy no one was even close to him except arguably Deron Williams.
While Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Rondo all have deficiencies that make you question if you could put them on any type of team, CP3 and D-Will can probably play in any system. Hell D-Will had double digit assists in his first 2 games with the Nets didn't he?
CP3 is definitely top 10. D-Will MAYBE not, but I'm not even sure about that. Durant might not be top 10 himself.
|
I'd give the MVP to Dirk atm... but honestly I feel like there's no clear frontrunner as there has been in recent years. I'd argue that this year is Wade making a bigger impact than LeBron, Dwight is huge this year but Orlando is struggling. Durant isn't dominant enough to deserve it, Kobe was probably a frontrunner early but then a bunch of people stepped up. Amare has been crucial for turning the Knicks into a playoff team, Rose has been the best player on a top team, and Dirk has been monstrous this year.
There's 7-8 people who really deserve serious attention in the MVP race this year, it'll be really interesting to see who actually takes it home.
|
On March 03 2011 07:12 cLutZ wrote:
Chris Paul certainly has the "title" as best PG in the world. I would say, that no PG in the league is really that far ahead of the others though. Lebron and Dwight are the two most uniquely gifted players in the league, and no PG is really in the top 10 in that respect.
I'd give MVP to Howard, he is dragging a cast that is as bad as the Cavs to the playoffs. The Heat/Bulls/Thunder would all be there without the #1 guy.
I don't mind giving the MVP to Howard, mostly because I think the MVP award is kind of a crock anyways. Nevertheless, I totally disagree with you on Point Guards. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are definitely in the top 10 list. CP3 on the high end and Deron Williams on the low end.
I think in terms of all around skill none of them touch CP3. Problem is he's been hurt all year. When healthy no one was even close to him except arguably Deron Williams.
While Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Rondo all have deficiencies that make you question if you could put them on any type of team, CP3 and D-Will can probably play in any system. Hell D-Will had double digit assists in his first 2 games with the Nets didn't he?
CP3 is definitely top 10. D-Will MAYBE not, but I'm not even sure about that. Durant might not be top 10 himself.
I agree with Ace, generally. Chris Paul is outrageously good, in SC2 terms, we can call him a micro genius or something like that. Deron Williams is my favorite player because he is a baller; I still recognize that he is not as good as Paul. I also agree that the second tier: Rondo, Westbrook and Rose (not necessarily in that order,) all have flaws and are not in the CP3/D-Will tier.
However, Ace you are so wrong on Durant. He is top 10:
1. Lebron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Chris Paul
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwayne Wade
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Deron Williams
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Pau Gasol
10. Derrick Rose?
EDIT: This list is just "AS OF TODAY" not for the future or past. I know lists like these piss people off so please don't overreact.
|
I'd really like Dwight Howard to take it home this year.
He is the first man I've had a man crush on since Michael Jordan.
|
KG? Bosh over Rose imo. Maybe Rudy Gay but that's a really crazy scenario.
Wade/Lebron are 1/2 imo but you can have it in any order you like with Kobe as #3.
|
i dunno man, im a huge rose fan. and i was still pretty skeptical about him being considered elite and whatnot, but lately watching him play has got me seeing him as an elite player.
The most obvious thing about him is his ability to get to the rim and score. the improvements ive seen in his game in just this season compared to previous ones are his jumpshooting and his passing/play making. While i cant say its on the same level as dwill or cp3, i would still consider his combined skillsets as of now to be elite.
|
On March 03 2011 07:38 Ace wrote:
KG? Bosh over Rose imo. Maybe Rudy Gay but that's a really crazy scenario.
Wade/Lebron are 1/2 imo but you can have it in any order you like with Kobe as #3.
KG isn't on the list, unless you mean Kevin Durant. You are correct in that the order doesn't really matter. It is just really hard to even pick out 10 guys that are "THE BEST," without including Kevin Durant. Rudy Gay...not really a fan; total fantasy stud but no.
I think Rose is better, right now, than Bosh. Maybe Carmelo? Even Blake? Still, I think you have to agree that Durant is top 10.
EDIT: I see what you mean by "KG?" Sorry for misreading. Yeah he is still arguably top 10.
|
How can anybody seriously choose bosh over rose? -____-
|
hmmm I don't know. I think I'd have to see KDs all around game develop more. With KG I know if he's on my team my odds of winning the title improve drastically. Same with Tim Duncan even at this stage of their careers. Can't say the same for KD.
Fair point on Rudy Gay. I think he actually is pretty good irl but he is now just hitting the level he was supposed to be at 2 years ago. When OJ Mayo got drafted Gay had a TERRIBLE season - the one he was expected to make "the leap" in.
I think if Bosh was in Toronto with a bonafide second fiddle, a competent coach and decent defense you wouldn't think so  . Bosh was an absolute monster but didn't get a lot of credit playing on a shitty team. If his year in Miami has shown anything it's that he's still efficient and worth his max contract when playing with 2 high usage guys. Defensively he's still very good even though for years he was wrongly accused of being a bad defender.
On March 03 2011 07:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:
How can anybody seriously choose bosh over rose? -____-
Did you see Chris Bosh's last year in Toronto?
|
On March 03 2011 07:32 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 07:12 cLutZ wrote:
Chris Paul certainly has the "title" as best PG in the world. I would say, that no PG in the league is really that far ahead of the others though. Lebron and Dwight are the two most uniquely gifted players in the league, and no PG is really in the top 10 in that respect.
I'd give MVP to Howard, he is dragging a cast that is as bad as the Cavs to the playoffs. The Heat/Bulls/Thunder would all be there without the #1 guy. I don't mind giving the MVP to Howard, mostly because I think the MVP award is kind of a crock anyways. Nevertheless, I totally disagree with you on Point Guards. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are definitely in the top 10 list. CP3 on the high end and Deron Williams on the low end. Show nested quote +
I think in terms of all around skill none of them touch CP3. Problem is he's been hurt all year. When healthy no one was even close to him except arguably Deron Williams.
While Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Rondo all have deficiencies that make you question if you could put them on any type of team, CP3 and D-Will can probably play in any system. Hell D-Will had double digit assists in his first 2 games with the Nets didn't he?
CP3 is definitely top 10. D-Will MAYBE not, but I'm not even sure about that. Durant might not be top 10 himself.
I agree with Ace, generally. Chris Paul is outrageously good, in SC2 terms, we can call him a micro genius or something like that. Deron Williams is my favorite player because he is a baller; I still recognize that he is not as good as Paul. I also agree that the second tier: Rondo, Westbrook and Rose (not necessarily in that order,) all have flaws and are not in the CP3/D-Will tier. However, Ace you are so wrong on Durant. He is top 10: 1. Lebron James 2. Dwight Howard 3. Chris Paul 4. Kevin Durant 5. Dwayne Wade 6. Kobe Bryant 7. Deron Williams 8. Dirk Nowitzki 9. Pau Gasol 10. Derrick Rose? EDIT: This list is just "AS OF TODAY" not for the future or past. I know lists like these piss people off so please don't overreact.
I'll address both your list and your point at one time, because they are linked. The list might be correct as in "best player" but I was talking about "most replaceable". Chris paul is probably 1-2 wins per season better than Deron, who is 1-2 wins better than Westbrook/Rose/Nash/etc.
Lebron and Dwight are probably 10 wins better than the next best player at their position. Kobe/Wade are close, then there is a chasm to the next SG. etc
|
ehhh i know he's a monster, dont even need to refer to statistics to know that. But I think offensively for a team, drose does more. Not just individually, but because opponents are forced to double or triple up on him when he drives, it allows his team to get open for some uncontested perimeter shots (same thing that people like dwade lebron and dwight do).
when it comes to defense i know he's not the best, but neither is bosh. I think the fact that rose is explosive though, not only offensively, gives him a slight edge over bosh
|
On March 03 2011 07:46 Ace wrote:
Defensively he's still very good even though for years he was wrongly accused of being a bad defender.
If by "wrongly accused" you mean "Toronto was better defensively with him on the bench," then I agree.
|
On March 03 2011 07:49 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 07:32 slyboogie wrote:On March 03 2011 07:12 cLutZ wrote:
Chris Paul certainly has the "title" as best PG in the world. I would say, that no PG in the league is really that far ahead of the others though. Lebron and Dwight are the two most uniquely gifted players in the league, and no PG is really in the top 10 in that respect.
I'd give MVP to Howard, he is dragging a cast that is as bad as the Cavs to the playoffs. The Heat/Bulls/Thunder would all be there without the #1 guy. I don't mind giving the MVP to Howard, mostly because I think the MVP award is kind of a crock anyways. Nevertheless, I totally disagree with you on Point Guards. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are definitely in the top 10 list. CP3 on the high end and Deron Williams on the low end.
I think in terms of all around skill none of them touch CP3. Problem is he's been hurt all year. When healthy no one was even close to him except arguably Deron Williams.
While Derrick Rose, Westbrook and Rondo all have deficiencies that make you question if you could put them on any type of team, CP3 and D-Will can probably play in any system. Hell D-Will had double digit assists in his first 2 games with the Nets didn't he?
CP3 is definitely top 10. D-Will MAYBE not, but I'm not even sure about that. Durant might not be top 10 himself.
I agree with Ace, generally. Chris Paul is outrageously good, in SC2 terms, we can call him a micro genius or something like that. Deron Williams is my favorite player because he is a baller; I still recognize that he is not as good as Paul. I also agree that the second tier: Rondo, Westbrook and Rose (not necessarily in that order,) all have flaws and are not in the CP3/D-Will tier. However, Ace you are so wrong on Durant. He is top 10: 1. Lebron James 2. Dwight Howard 3. Chris Paul 4. Kevin Durant 5. Dwayne Wade 6. Kobe Bryant 7. Deron Williams 8. Dirk Nowitzki 9. Pau Gasol 10. Derrick Rose? EDIT: This list is just "AS OF TODAY" not for the future or past. I know lists like these piss people off so please don't overreact. I'll address both your list and your point at one time, because they are linked. The list might be correct as in "best player" but I was talking about "most replaceable". Chris paul is probably 1-2 wins per season better than Deron, who is 1-2 wins better than Westbrook/Rose/Nash/etc. Lebron and Dwight are probably 10 wins better than the next best player at their position. Kobe/Wade are close, then there is a chasm to the next SG. etc
In this case you are absolutely correct. If we use advanced statistics, KPelton's WARP, Basketball References Win Shares or David Berri's Wins Produced (Blegh,) then your point on point guards proves out 100%. Even if we just use our scouting eyeballs, we can plainly see Lebron and Dwight Howard do things that no one else can do.
Thanks for clearing up your point, it makes a lot of sense from that perspective. However, I have to say that this may just be because we are in a "Point Guard" revolution period, where all these bright young players are coming out right when CP3 and D-Will hit their primes. So replaceable is relative to the era.
|
By "wrongly accused" I mean his defense in ISOs vs PFs and even when playing out of position against Centers. Toronto being better defensively with him on the bench was due to what? Is Miami better defensively with Bosh on the bench?
@clutz: Win Shares is a stat that's hard to correlate with how replaceable a player is. It heavily depends on your team and even where you play.
|
On March 03 2011 07:46 Ace wrote:hmmm I don't know. I think I'd have to see KDs all around game develop more. With KG I know if he's on my team my odds of winning the title improve drastically. Same with Tim Duncan even at this stage of their careers. Can't say the same for KD. Fair point on Rudy Gay. I think he actually is pretty good irl but he is now just hitting the level he was supposed to be at 2 years ago. When OJ Mayo got drafted Gay had a TERRIBLE season - the one he was expected to make "the leap" in. I think if Bosh was in Toronto with a bonafide second fiddle, a competent coach and decent defense you wouldn't think so . Bosh was an absolute monster but didn't get a lot of credit playing on a shitty team. If his year in Miami has shown anything it's that he's still efficient and worth his max contract when playing with 2 high usage guys. Defensively he's still very good even though for years he was wrongly accused of being a bad defender. Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 07:45 BlueRoyaL wrote:
How can anybody seriously choose bosh over rose? -____- Did you see Chris Bosh's last year in Toronto?
Some nights, Duncan seems really shot. He was so great that even as he ages relatively gracefully and stays productive, it's hard to watch. The Grizzlies long-term plan is just a masterpiece of mismanagement, they are so lucky that Gay worked out and ZBo is playing like he cares.
I agree with you on Bosh somewhat. He has all the tools to be a strong defender: long, laterally quick and he is a smart player. However, I think he has a tendency to get a little lazy. I didn't really watch that much of him in Toronto but that was just my gut feeling.
|
He gives very pathetic defense attempts it seems at times where a really hard defender gives it his all.
I don't think he works nearly as hard on defense as some other players. We may see a change come playoff time but I'm not so sure.
|
and i noticed, not just in TL but in other places also, when people start discussing PGs, most of the time it always revolves around dwill, cp3, and sometimes rose. what about someone like nash?
how do you guys compare nash with pgs of dwill/cp3? are they on the same level, and why or why not? just curious
|
Miami is about the same with or without Bosh defensively. They give up slightly more points without him, but opponents shoot 1.5% worse from the floor. It's too early to say definitively since he's only played about 60 games in a Heat uniform. Since we have quite a few Toronto seasons to look at, it's easier to make observations.
I'm not saying he can't be a good defensive player. The fact is, whether by poor coaching, lack of effort, or whatever, he was extremely underwhelming on that side of the ball throughout his entire Toronto tenure.
On March 03 2011 08:10 SK.Testie wrote:
He gives very pathetic defense attempts it seems at times where a really hard defender gives it his all.
I don't think he works nearly as hard on defense as some other players. We may see a change come playoff time but I'm not so sure.
What is this SK nonsense? Have my dreams of you playing SC2 just been shattered?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
