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On May 13 2011 14:35 d_so wrote:
you know what though. Despite everything I've said so far and as much as I agree with the main points of the OP, I think "farce" is too strong of a word. TSL1 and TSL2 also had limited competition in that koreans weren't allowed. They weren't a full representation of the available competition, and we all knew that and enjoyed it just fine. We wouldn't have called TSL1 or TSL2 a farce, right? That's just a hurtful word.
TSLs 1 and 2 weren't a farce. They were an amateur competition. (Yes, Idra was training on a pro team and had a license, but he never played a televised game. IIRC it was generally agreed that if he were actually on an A-team, he would not be allowed to compete.) There's nothing wrong with amateur competitions.
TSL3 is a similar level of competition to TSL2. But SC2 doesn't have full-on BW-level professional competition, so TSL3 is one of the more serious SC2 leagues.
There's an irritating movement among certain SC2-only fans to refuse any lessons or insight that should naturally be inherited from Broodwar. This is somewhat bewildering since it's a direct refusal of help.
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I think its not fair to both SC2 and BW to compare one to the other. Its an insult to SC2 players to say that BW players will dominate SC2. Not only that, it is useless as well simply because that is not the case. It's like talking about a mountain that doesn't exist. BW had, is having its golden age. SC2 is young and needs to grow. What we see now is the baby period of the game. That's why final statements like these are irrelevant today.
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Probably just smoke, but maybe roasted corn?
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice.
Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (:
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (:
He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro.
Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias.
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I would actually like to get some of the mods reasoning for why they thought this post was featured news worthy.
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On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (:
If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias.
It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful.
I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here:
On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children.
I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias.
On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum.
I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay!
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On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (:
Ignoring the presumptuous undertone, I was actually thinking about that. This would not be the first community that actively tried to chase away members/posters. It's not inherently a bad thing; that's what the SC2 strategy forum's doing, to positive effect, as I glance over it.
It's just awfully timed with the TSL. And completely counter-productive, as those whom it chases away are those who are passionate about the topic and, consequently, one of the two games.
Also, I note that your post is glib enough such that you can play it off as sarcasm to the dull, but I'm sharp enough to realize that you, for some reason, want some mentality that I'm embodying gone from the site. Which is perplexing, as I don't think I've ever interacted with you before.
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On May 13 2011 15:03 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias. It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful. I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here: On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias. On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum. I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay!
Come on mate. You were doing so well. Restraint!
I think we have both tried to outline something positive from this article. Respect!
As to the rest of you guys, try and add something to this discussion.
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I salute you intrigue. THE BUTTHURT IS AWESOME.
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On May 13 2011 14:52 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:35 d_so wrote:
you know what though. Despite everything I've said so far and as much as I agree with the main points of the OP, I think "farce" is too strong of a word. TSL1 and TSL2 also had limited competition in that koreans weren't allowed. They weren't a full representation of the available competition, and we all knew that and enjoyed it just fine. We wouldn't have called TSL1 or TSL2 a farce, right? That's just a hurtful word. TSLs 1 and 2 weren't a farce. They were an amateur competition. (Yes, Idra was training on a pro team and had a license, but he never played a televised game. IIRC it was generally agreed that if he were actually on an A-team, he would not be allowed to compete.) There's nothing wrong with amateur competitions. TSL3 is a similar level of competition to TSL2. But SC2 doesn't have full-on BW-level professional competition, so TSL3 is one of the more serious SC2 leagues. There's an irritating movement among certain SC2-only fans to refuse any lessons or insight that should naturally be inherited from Broodwar. This is somewhat bewildering since it's a direct refusal of help.
Some but not all. I can only hope that my fellow noobies will either learn or disappear. As for your point about providing insight from BW, I am not sure what insight this article provides. As much as I hate to say it, the intent of the piece seems to be to hurt.
I fully agree that we have a lot to learn from BW, but this is no way to teach us.
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On May 13 2011 15:11 ShadeR wrote:
I salute you intrigue. THE BUTTHURT IS AWESOME.
Helpful post right here.
Be constructive or get out please.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 15:05 RHMVNovus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: Ignoring the presumptuous undertone, I was actually thinking about that. This would not be the first community that actively tried to chase away members/posters. It's not inherently a bad thing; that's what the SC2 strategy forum's doing, to positive effect, as I glance over it. It's just awfully timed with the TSL. And completely counter-productive, as those whom it chases away are those who are passionate about the topic and, consequently, one of the two games. Also, I note that your post is glib enough such that you can play it off as sarcasm to the dull, but I'm sharp enough to realize that you, for some reason, want some mentality that I'm embodying gone from the site. Which is perplexing, as I don't think I've ever interacted with you before.
I believe that the people it will chase away from TeamLiquid forever are the same people that cannot control their emotions online and get upset easily and are generally not good posters, this is my personal belief however, and due to this I agree with your first two paragraphs. These posters however are far less numerous than you imagine them to be.
Reading into things with such a critical mind can make you out to be very neurotic person, especially when you realize that such borderline paranoia is in some cases completely unfounded. I could conjecture about how you want to paint me the villain in this conversation, even though I explained that I didn't pretend to be an unbiased voice in the matter, and that the sarcasm had an ounce of truth to it. Because of this you want to sensationalize the situation with some intriguing mindplay that you somehow won, Yagami Light-style. Sadly, there is nothing really there. You are running on hot air.
And the reason I want this "mentality you are embodying" (read as: people, not just you, who ditch a site over an opinion piece like this by one of the staff members) is because of what you said in your post, not anything to do with your history or our non-existent personal relationship:
"A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice."
Very classy. Complaining about how a writer said that SC2 is a farce and calling TSL a soon-to-be-dead event and by extension TL as a whole because supposedly so many people are going to bail now in the same post, kind of hypocritical. I will let you use your sharp intellect to connect the dots on where I would go after this, namely going back to the beginning of my post where I say I do not mind this at all but the amount of people leaving will actually be minuscule.
EDIT: Fixed
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 15:10 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:03 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias. It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful. I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here: On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias. On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum. I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay! Come on mate. You were doing so well. Restraint! I think we have both tried to outline something positive from this article. Respect! As to the rest of you guys, try and add something to this discussion.
People who are leaving TL because of this are people to whom my previous post does not apply because I was trying to present some ideas about how to mature as a community, and that community would logically not include those that leave it.
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On May 13 2011 15:18 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:10 Probulous wrote:On May 13 2011 15:03 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias. It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful. I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here: On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias. On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum. I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay! Come on mate. You were doing so well. Restraint! I think we have both tried to outline something positive from this article. Respect! As to the rest of you guys, try and add something to this discussion. People who are leaving TL because of this are people to whom my previous post does not apply because I was trying to present some ideas about how to mature as a community, and that community would logically not include those that leave it.
I see;
On May 13 2011 08:18 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:11 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:08 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 08:06 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:01 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 08:00 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:57 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:45 Omoplata wrote:
[quote]
Is being passive-aggressive also the adult way?
You can't be offended by opinions? You aren't offended by people that think black people are inferior? Or that women are inferior? Or any one of a multitude of things that are, and should be offensive to rational-minded people? If someone is offended by something they aren't an adult? Really?
Calling SC2 competition a farce is condescending, and that should be offensive to anyone that competes in SC2. MC? Hahaha, Broodwar scrub. What a farce. Nestea? Broodwar scrub. Total farce. Fruitdealer? Yet another scrub. Yet another farce.
Cherry-picking statistics doesn't validate condescension. have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce. Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?" OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending. hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer obviously not On the FIFA site? Teamliquid isn't some guy, or even a big e-sports site. It's the BW/SC2 website. Granted, a large part of the reason Team Liquid is so big is because pro gamers post here, and we just ran a front-page article calling them a bunch of lazy pussies whose games are only good for comedy, so I hope they have thick skins. We are a news site, we are not blizzard. The top news sites have covered such topics, of course. I will stop complaining if you link me to an official news post in the last ten years on this site saying Brood War sucks, or even sucked at that particular time compared to some point in the past. Bonus points if it insults every single player and calls the scene a farce or some similar language. wtf. every post you've made is based around a huge exaggeration or a bad analogy. this article didnt say sc2 sucks... The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. In big, bold letters too! Why is the SC2 scene a farce?
It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is (Z)Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination.
Because all the players are lazy assholes who don't even care about the game, of course No, it's because the players are not trying that hard because the game does not demand it from them. Take yourself for example - can't even make 50% winrate at D level on ICCup, is already Platinum in SC2. And you have played a LOT of BW games. Seems like there is some value to this argument, if a D level noob in BW can be "Platinum" in SC2. No wonder you are defending your cakewalk.
On May 13 2011 08:21 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:19 Ribbon wrote:
I think I'm going to go play Starcraft, rather than keep arguing and eventually getting myself banned for being stupid.
I've been playing Brood War recently, and enjoying myself, but it's a little less appealing now. I think I'll play SC2 instead. I guess people will have it that little bit harder getting from D to D+ now since you aren't there to give them a boost.
Truly you are the one who will show us the way to maturity as a community.
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On May 13 2011 15:01 Bandino wrote:
I would actually like to get some of the mods reasoning for why they thought this post was featured news worthy.
why dont you shut the fuck up and go to another site before questioning their whys. They've been here for 10 + years. They know what they're doing
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 13 2011 15:13 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:11 ShadeR wrote:
I salute you intrigue. THE BUTTHURT IS AWESOME. Helpful post right here. Be constructive or get out please.
Constructiveness is always a criterion for posting. My post was one of glee from the responses that the OP has evoked. Dare i say not every poster on this forum must join you in mindless bickering. Some of us just want to show appreciation.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 15:21 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:18 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 15:10 Probulous wrote:On May 13 2011 15:03 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias. It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful. I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here: On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias. On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum. I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay! Come on mate. You were doing so well. Restraint! I think we have both tried to outline something positive from this article. Respect! As to the rest of you guys, try and add something to this discussion. People who are leaving TL because of this are people to whom my previous post does not apply because I was trying to present some ideas about how to mature as a community, and that community would logically not include those that leave it. I see; Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:18 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 08:11 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:08 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 08:06 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:01 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 08:00 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:57 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:49 billyX333 wrote:
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have you ever read a sports article in your entire life? and ffs drop the fucking comparison to racism and sexism. sports writers always call out athletes for being scrubs. thats why we read I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce. Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?" OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending. hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer obviously not On the FIFA site? Teamliquid isn't some guy, or even a big e-sports site. It's the BW/SC2 website. Granted, a large part of the reason Team Liquid is so big is because pro gamers post here, and we just ran a front-page article calling them a bunch of lazy pussies whose games are only good for comedy, so I hope they have thick skins. We are a news site, we are not blizzard. The top news sites have covered such topics, of course. I will stop complaining if you link me to an official news post in the last ten years on this site saying Brood War sucks, or even sucked at that particular time compared to some point in the past. Bonus points if it insults every single player and calls the scene a farce or some similar language. wtf. every post you've made is based around a huge exaggeration or a bad analogy. this article didnt say sc2 sucks... The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. In big, bold letters too! Why is the SC2 scene a farce?
It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is (Z)Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination.
Because all the players are lazy assholes who don't even care about the game, of course No, it's because the players are not trying that hard because the game does not demand it from them. Take yourself for example - can't even make 50% winrate at D level on ICCup, is already Platinum in SC2. And you have played a LOT of BW games. Seems like there is some value to this argument, if a D level noob in BW can be "Platinum" in SC2. No wonder you are defending your cakewalk. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 08:21 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 08:19 Ribbon wrote:
I think I'm going to go play Starcraft, rather than keep arguing and eventually getting myself banned for being stupid.
I've been playing Brood War recently, and enjoying myself, but it's a little less appealing now. I think I'll play SC2 instead. I guess people will have it that little bit harder getting from D to D+ now since you aren't there to give them a boost. Truly you are the one who will show us the way to maturity as a community.
I admitted I let my emotions ride earlier and thus I am not trying to act as a role model. I just posted some conjecturing as to why I thought this was a good post. Just because my analysis of the thread led me to the conclusion that we should be more civil (and I have been trying since, I think you will admit) and I wasn't in prior posts shouldn't cheapen the message it could have to others who are maybe already more patient and manner than I am. Shooting it down like this makes you no better, anyway, because an idea can be good regardless of who put it forth, and trying to deny it based on reputation rather than making a concrete response is also childish.
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On May 13 2011 15:23 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:01 Bandino wrote:
I would actually like to get some of the mods reasoning for why they thought this post was featured news worthy. why dont you shut the fuck up and go to another site before questioning their whys. They've been here for 10 + years. They know what they're doing
There was no beta 10+ years ago.
Clearly you are mistaken.
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