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On May 13 2011 14:01 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:58 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:51 aimaimaim wrote:On May 13 2011 13:38 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:36 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 13:33 hydraden wrote:
This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard.
If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year.
BW will be dead by now for sure. unbelievable What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. Lets see where your post went off-topic just to get to you 'point': SC2 vs BW
Blizzard vs Kepsa
BW will be dead of sure Seems to me that you're just a one sided SC2 fanatic. Some people here are trying to argue with open minds. You, on the other hand, isn't keen on engaging an argument because you're either a blind fan boy or a troll. How can you say they would have migrated for sure?? Have you even considered the Lag and Ping on battle.net and how would that affect with micro battles early in the game? You misunderstood me so bad, I do not even think SC2 is as good as WC3, let alone BW. It is just another Red Alert. All the hype SC2 got are actually coming from success of BW. Then why has SC2 exploded outside of Korea where nobody cares about BW?
Because foreigners still have the illusion that they can beat Koreans in starcraft, if can't do it in BW, then maybe its successor SC2. And also because hardware companies put big money into sponsorship.
If foreigners can't make into Code S for a year or two, and all WCG SC2 champions are Koreans, the SC2 scene in euro and america will fade for sure. Foreigners are still trying to believe, but that's not gonna work if euro and america do not have a decent league like GSL.
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On May 13 2011 13:36 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:25 Enyalus wrote:
OP's argument was that the level of competition and skill seen in SC2 right now is not on the level of Brood War, and that once more A-team BW pros switch, they will dominate the scene.
Why's that getting so much flak? It's completely true. Maybe it doesn't need to be said by the OP, but there's nothing wrong with the article. It's kind of obvious if you look at MC, or Marineking, or NesTea's careers in BW.
Seriously... Please don't just jump in the discussion without seeing what everyone's saying. I'll get you into it though. A: It's a differnet game. If you're good at chess doesn't mean you're gonna be the champion at a marathon. B: The OP's saying that the SC2 scene is a farce, which is why most SC2 fans think that the OP is biased and only wants to show BW elitism, which imo is probably true, which means that every BW fanboy in the thread will go like "Pft ofcourse any BW pro would hulk smash the SC2 scene", whereas SC2 fanboys go "I don't care about brood war, I like the progamers im rooting for, why is this on the front page?" C: There's no sign whatsoever so far that SC:BW pros would be dominating the scene, if they decided to switch over. Also there's a logical fallacy in the OP that BW players would win everything in SC2 but don't join because they wouldn't get any money, whereas people repeatedly state that if they did indeed in everything, they'd earn triple the amount they do now.
Holy crap did you honestly just make the analogy chess:marathon::SCBW:SC2?
I think you just did. How do you honestly expect to justify that? Are BW players that much worse off athletically than SC2 players? Or do you mean that SC2 players play while running? Or is it that BW is played on a board while SC2 is played on a track?
Or is it really that you're just trying to say they're different with a horrible analogy? Yeah, I think it's that. Well guess what, no shit they're different. Your analogy doesn't help to clarify the differences at all. It's as bad as chess:marathon::Me:The Pope. Yeah, we're different, we get it. How big is the difference? Your analogy doesn't say. Yeah, it was a horrible way to argue that.
B. Competition != Scene. SC2 fanboys take offense? I take no offense. Bias? Yeah. It's an opinionated piece. Last I check, opinions held biases. Should it not? Good writing has a bias. Good writing is personal. TLFEs have always been good pieces of writing. Why would we change the tradition now? There's nothing wrong with bias.
I understand the attachment to progamers. But face it, there's only this giant outcry because they it's a one-way relationship. BW progamers would DOMINATE anyone on their territory. People are doubtful if SC2 progamers would dominate even in their own territory. That's why people are whining. Because they don't have faith in SC2 progamers. Some fans. If it were mutual, we'd say, hell, bring them on. Like Korea vs NA. Like Korea vs EU. Like EU vs NA. Like, in SSBM, EU vs NA when Armada faced Mango.
C. Yes, yes there has. 5 GSLs + Nestea in a 6th seems to go contrary to your claim.
On May 13 2011 13:41 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:36 ghrur wrote:On May 13 2011 13:21 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 13:14 ghrur wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 out4blood wrote:
Sorry, but your rhetorical efforts to defuse the obvious response, "It's a different game," fail completely.
It's a different game.
The mix of skills required are different enough from BW, that at the very tippy-top of the rankings, players who have the ideal mix for SC2 will rise to the top, even if they were not at the top of the BW rankings. As an analogy, take the sport of swimming; swimmers who gold medal at the 50 m breaststroke rarely gold medal at 400 m breaststroke, even though it is the same stroke! Yes, they are similar, but they are not the same.
We see this with the performance of world-class WC3 players. They are not tearing it up, either. Why not? Because it's a different game. Michael Phelps is to Swimming as Flash or Jaedong are to Starcraft. And BW players ARE tearing it up. 5/5 GSLs have gone to Broodwar Players. When hasn't a final gone to one of the former BW pros? Yeah but then again, most of the SC2 players in Korea have played SC:BW before, as it's the biggest RTS there. There are foreigners from for instance the WC3 scene who are way way way better than Rainbow and Fruitdealer, so your point's only valid if these people were considerd to actually be top notch. Right now former WC3 players are just as good as former SC:BW players.. Guess why? Because it's a new game, they've played it for over a year, and that's what's beaing meassured. Not what they did years ago. GSL is held in Korea, Korea = Starcraft. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the winner of the GSL's probably gonna be an ex BW player. It doesn't mean that they're the best though. Look at TSL. Are there WC3 players way better than Nestea, MC, or MVP? Look, there are WC3 pros in Korea too. Where was Moon in GSL? Guess why? Because you're comparing the top WC3 foreign pro players to SC:BW foreigners, who were like, A-rank ICCUP but nowhere near B-team level BW. Maybe that's why. Just because GSL is held in korea doesn't mean it's going to be a BW player that wins. It could be a new SC2 player. It could be a korean WC3 pro. Or... do they suddenly not have that? Idk, I thought Wemade FOX had a WC3 team. Furthermore, please don't say ex-BW player. We know everyone's an ex-BW player in Korea. We're saying ex-BW pro. Difference. Big difference. TSL, as much as I love it, is an online tournament. I love Thorzain, and I love Naniwa (not as much  ), but I want to see them in Korea taking GSLs before we say everyone's on a level playing field regardless of background. TSL is the only tournament where foreigners and Koreans have actually clashed, and it didn't turn out too well for the Koreans. Most foreigners had a WC3 background. I don't think what game you played over a year ago is relevant to what's going on in todays pro scene regardless, and your three sentences of nitpicking a typo of player instead of pro-player doesn't really help your case as much as you might think it does.
Do you follow the SC2 scene? Foreigners and Koreans have clashed numerous times. GSLWC, Koreans won. In fact, MVP won. FXO international, Koreans won. In fact, Supernova won, a former BW player. Dreamhack Invitational, MC won. Copenhagen, MC won. TSL has been an anomaly, and TSL has been online.
And I'm nitpicking that because saying player instead of pro allows your claim, that everyone's an ex-bw player so obviously ex-bw players win, to be closer to true. When you say ex-bw pro, your claim is downright false. Not everyone in GSL is an ex-bw pro. I doubt even the majority were Korean ex-BW pros. But they do seem to dominate Code S!
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On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why.
This is hardly true. I feel there is nothing to really disagree with in the article. It's practically vacuous truth.
The OP basically states: There are people who aren't playing SC2 that, if they were to play SC2, would be much better at it than the current pros.
Color me surprised. You mean the people currently playing aren't the best that will ever play? Things will change!? Gasp.
I fail to grasp the point of the OP other than to incite a stupid shit storm of SC2 vs BW.
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On May 13 2011 14:07 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:01 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:51 aimaimaim wrote:On May 13 2011 13:38 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:36 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 13:33 hydraden wrote:
This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard.
If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year.
BW will be dead by now for sure. unbelievable What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. Lets see where your post went off-topic just to get to you 'point': SC2 vs BW
Blizzard vs Kepsa
BW will be dead of sure Seems to me that you're just a one sided SC2 fanatic. Some people here are trying to argue with open minds. You, on the other hand, isn't keen on engaging an argument because you're either a blind fan boy or a troll. How can you say they would have migrated for sure?? Have you even considered the Lag and Ping on battle.net and how would that affect with micro battles early in the game? You misunderstood me so bad, I do not even think SC2 is as good as WC3, let alone BW. It is just another Red Alert. All the hype SC2 got are actually coming from success of BW. Then why has SC2 exploded outside of Korea where nobody cares about BW? Because foreigners still have the illusion that they can beat Koreans in starcraft, if can't do it in BW, then maybe its successor SC2. And also because hardware companies put big money into sponsorship. If foreigners can't make into Code S for a year or two, and all WCG SC2 champions are Koreans, the SC2 scene in euro and america will fade for sure. Foreigners are still trying to believe, but that's not gonna work if euro and america do not have a decent league like GSL.
That doesn't make sense, remember the vast majority of us never watched BW so why would we give a rats ass about an illusion of beating Koreans?
Korea means nothing to us.
Also re: your second point Euro and Americas already have more leagues and tournament then Korea so I'm not sure what your trying to say there?
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On May 13 2011 14:09 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:07 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 14:01 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:51 aimaimaim wrote:On May 13 2011 13:38 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:36 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 13:33 hydraden wrote:
This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard.
If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year.
BW will be dead by now for sure. unbelievable What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. Lets see where your post went off-topic just to get to you 'point': SC2 vs BW
Blizzard vs Kepsa
BW will be dead of sure Seems to me that you're just a one sided SC2 fanatic. Some people here are trying to argue with open minds. You, on the other hand, isn't keen on engaging an argument because you're either a blind fan boy or a troll. How can you say they would have migrated for sure?? Have you even considered the Lag and Ping on battle.net and how would that affect with micro battles early in the game? You misunderstood me so bad, I do not even think SC2 is as good as WC3, let alone BW. It is just another Red Alert. All the hype SC2 got are actually coming from success of BW. Then why has SC2 exploded outside of Korea where nobody cares about BW? Because foreigners still have the illusion that they can beat Koreans in starcraft, if can't do it in BW, then maybe its successor SC2. And also because hardware companies put big money into sponsorship. If foreigners can't make into Code S for a year or two, and all WCG SC2 champions are Koreans, the SC2 scene in euro and america will fade for sure. Foreigners are still trying to believe, but that's not gonna work if euro and america do not have a decent league like GSL. That doesn't make sense, remember the vast majority of us never watched BW so why would we give a rats ass about an illusion of beating Koreans? Korea means nothing to us. Also re: your second point Euro and Americas already have more leagues and tournament then Korea so I'm not sure what your trying to say there?
There you go.
You fail to acknowledge the koreans for their hard work regarding the scene overall. SC2 and BW came from the same root idea called E-sport which was invented to gather high viewerships on television.
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On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why.
This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living?
Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao.
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On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao.
That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. ><
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:17 StarStruck wrote:Me too! Bro five!
I never said I didn't love both games,hell I made a blog about loving both games.
although to be honest this article is a tough love speech not an attack on the SC2 community.But hey,majority wins right?
fun fun.
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On May 13 2011 14:09 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:07 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 14:01 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:51 aimaimaim wrote:On May 13 2011 13:38 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:36 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 13:33 hydraden wrote:
This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard.
If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year.
BW will be dead by now for sure. unbelievable What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. Lets see where your post went off-topic just to get to you 'point': SC2 vs BW
Blizzard vs Kepsa
BW will be dead of sure Seems to me that you're just a one sided SC2 fanatic. Some people here are trying to argue with open minds. You, on the other hand, isn't keen on engaging an argument because you're either a blind fan boy or a troll. How can you say they would have migrated for sure?? Have you even considered the Lag and Ping on battle.net and how would that affect with micro battles early in the game? You misunderstood me so bad, I do not even think SC2 is as good as WC3, let alone BW. It is just another Red Alert. All the hype SC2 got are actually coming from success of BW. Then why has SC2 exploded outside of Korea where nobody cares about BW? Because foreigners still have the illusion that they can beat Koreans in starcraft, if can't do it in BW, then maybe its successor SC2. And also because hardware companies put big money into sponsorship. If foreigners can't make into Code S for a year or two, and all WCG SC2 champions are Koreans, the SC2 scene in euro and america will fade for sure. Foreigners are still trying to believe, but that's not gonna work if euro and america do not have a decent league like GSL. That doesn't make sense, remember the vast majority of us never watched BW so why would we give a rats ass about an illusion of beating Koreans? Korea means nothing to us. Also re: your second point Euro and Americas already have more leagues and tournament then Korea so I'm not sure what your trying to say there?
You don't, but every foreign professional SC2 players have that on their mind for sure. That's why you are not a pro because of your lack of experience.
For those tournaments in Europe, they are just like tournaments in WC3 several years ago, everything is about money, not a whole lot about legacy and pride. And there are no big team league in which each team is owned by huge companies. And there is no one strict organization to regulate the whole professional scene. Any competitive sports have one organization to regulate.
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It's an old topic and Intrigue decided to bring it up again offering some substance. Hence, stirring up the pot. If anything it should be a battle cry for those already competing in shit to say, "Not in my house!" and stomp anyone who thinks they can waltz right in and take their monies!
Your examples are a bit far-fetched and your just ranting.
There are plenty of posts in this thread with well-thought out responses. Believe it or not, some people thought about what they wanted to post before going on a tirade/rant.
As for the obvious. There is no such thing as bad publicity. Considering this Final Edit got 140+ pages. I think it's safe to say Intrigue reached his goal.
Call it obvious all you want. I still think it was fairly well-written and I don't mind the tone.
On May 13 2011 14:19 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:17 StarStruck wrote:On May 13 2011 13:09 l10f wrote:I love both games  Me too! Bro five! I never said I didn't love both games,hell I made a blog about loving both games. although to be honest this article is a tough love speech not an attack on the SC2 community.But hey,majority wins right? fun fun.
This calls for another bro five!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2011 14:21 StarStruck wrote:
It's an old topic and Intrigue decided to bring it up again offering some substance. Hence, stirring up the pot. If anything it should be a battle cry for those already competing in shit to say, "Not in my house!" and stomp anyone who thinks they can waltz right in and take their monies!
Your examples are a bit far-fetched and your just ranting.
There are plenty of posts in this thread with well-thought out responses. Believe it or not, some people thought about what they wanted to post before going on a tirade/rant.
As for the obvious. There is no such thing as bad publicity. Considering this Final Edit got 140+ pages. I think it's safe to say Intrigue reached his goal.
Call it obvious all you want. I still think it was fairly well-written and I don't mind the tone.
I agree 100%.
Bro FIVE!!!
CHEST BUMP!!!
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I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice.
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On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. ><
The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine.
Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.'
Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why.
edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo.
Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals.
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On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice.
Couldn't let the sc2 fans get too uppity. I'm still shocked at the timing of this article. It could not have been worse. Just days before the TSL3 Finals. Wow.
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Everything said in the OP is very true. Just wait till some of the bw pros come over and break the game, like Savior did with 3 hatch muta to 5 hatch hydra, and bisu with forge expand (where do you think it came from in sc2?). The fact is sc2 is still in its infancy and even though much is gleened from bw there are many avenues that have yet to be explored. I see something new every day, and these guys are the cream of the crop. Yes it is a different game, but give me a break they are going to dominate nomatter when they switch over. Also regarding the WC3 players they all play with a little of the WC3 flair which is nice to see, they really make every unit count and if they can beat you on 1 unit in an engagement they will make that add up. They're fun to watch to cause as any old WC3 player knows your army should never be at your base. Always got to be on the move.
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you know what though. Despite everything I've said so far and as much as I agree with the main points of the OP, I think "farce" is too strong of a word. TSL1 and TSL2 also had limited competition in that koreans weren't allowed. They weren't a full representation of the available competition, and we all knew that and enjoyed it just fine. We wouldn't have called TSL1 or TSL2 a farce, right? That's just a hurtful word.
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On May 13 2011 14:35 d_so wrote:
you know what though. Despite everything I've said so far and as much as I agree with the main points of the OP, I think "farce" is too strong of a word. TSL1 and TSL2 also had limited competition in that koreans weren't allowed. They weren't a full representation of the available competition, and we all knew that and enjoyed it just fine. We wouldn't have called TSL1 or TSL2 a farce, right? That's just a hurtful word.
Right. If the OP could've been somewhat smooth and not say that every SC2 player sucks balls, and just say that he's pumped for when BW players would come to SC2, this thread wouldn't be such a mood killer for TSL, it wouldn't create a 150 page angry thread with no end in sight, but it would probably be moved to blogs, because it's just not all that interesting.
It's like saying that *inesert your favourite sport or entertainment* SUCKS because some day there might be someone who's better at it.
Meh.
Come to think of it, it would probably get locked as well.
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I think being a pro-gamer in BW no matter how lousy your career was is still incredibly impressive! How can you say they were "bad" at BW because they didnt have careers like flash or jaedong, or even fantasy and movie? A person that could even be considered in the same league as pro koreans in the bw world seems like he could pwn almost any foreigner.
And having "mediocre" skill at broodwar and being among the top players of WC3 seem to amount to the same skill level in sc2....and like the OP said..Flash and Jaedong havent made the switch yet, and then we will see i guess. I guess it was just a summary version of the entire debate everyones having anyway; nothing here proves anything and all the evidence put forth supports all the different theories the same.
HOW MANY LICKS DOES IT TAKE TO GET TO THE CENTER OF A TOOTSIE POP?>!?!
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It had to be said. More or else noobies need a reality check...the best has yet to come for SC2. And the game is being dominated by former BW players.
Really what we say about SC2 as far as the competitive level in comparison with BW is true.
I am a firm believer that the reason SC2 has much of its easier mechanics has to do with Blizzards desire of closing the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans.
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EPT
