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On May 13 2011 15:23 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:01 Bandino wrote:
I would actually like to get some of the mods reasoning for why they thought this post was featured news worthy. why dont you shut the fuck up and go to another site before questioning their whys. They've been here for 10 + years. They know what they're doing
easy, i dont want to see you banned man
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On May 13 2011 14:07 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:01 TheButtonmen wrote:
Then why has SC2 exploded outside of Korea where nobody cares about BW? Because foreigners still have the illusion that they can beat Koreans in starcraft, if can't do it in BW, then maybe its successor SC2. And also because hardware companies put big money into sponsorship. If foreigners can't make into Code S for a year or two, and all WCG SC2 champions are Koreans, the SC2 scene in euro and america will fade for sure. Foreigners are still trying to believe, but that's not gonna work if euro and america do not have a decent league like GSL.
I should elaborate more from my previous post with regards to this. There are other obvious reasons.
I'll make a list:
- It's a Blizzard game (as mentioned before  )
- SC2 is the new craze/ eye candy/whatever the hell you want to call it. After years of playing one game for thousands of hours, change is nice. Old dogs get to learn new tricks. In an interview before NaDa left Wemade Fox a reporter inquired about the notorious terran's practice schedule. NaDa spoke briefly about his downtime. Yes, even the Genius Terran can get weary. At this point, he wasn't active in the Pro League. NaDa was tired. Hell, even players like Jaedong can burn out. The kid was working his heart out in practice, carried Oz for what seemed like an eternity and was always a threat in the MSL and OSL. Walking embodiment of a workhorse. Good thing it didn't take long for him to get back on track.
- Foreigner's cannot compete with the Koreans practice regime in Brood War (as hydraden pointed out). How do you support something when you can only make pocket change off of it? Which leads me to my next point:
- Lots of the old BW foreigners are getting to the point where they need to make bank to support their hobby and passion to compete. What better way than making it your full-time occupation considering all the money they can make through sponsorships, coaching, streaming, selling merchandise and big prize pools? Goes back to what I said earlier. SC2 is the new craze from Blizzard and they have a ridiculously huge fan base and we have all the resources to keep people wired and connected 24/7.
Considering there is a huge influx of people coming here looking for their SC2 fix from streams, tournaments, etc. What better way than to hop on the SC2 bandwagon? This is why you see commentators coming from all sorts of gaming backgrounds too, which goes back to my last point. There is financial gain to be had, you want to keep your sponsors happy and attract new sponsors.
The vast majority of competitive BW players made the switch for these reasons. Likewise, we're seeing something similar in the WCIII community as well. This is what happens when markets merge.
Everyone has an agenda man, whether they're aware of it or not. Likewise, you got to promote the product your selling or promoting. It comes with the territory. When the next big RTS pops up it will be a similar story.
In Korea, BW is sustainable because it's part of their culture.
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On May 13 2011 15:23 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:01 Bandino wrote:
I would actually like to get some of the mods reasoning for why they thought this post was featured news worthy. why dont you shut the fuck up and go to another site before questioning their whys. They've been here for 10 + years. They know what they're doing
Really helpful post here. Calm down. Have a drink and then maybe do some squats.
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On May 13 2011 15:25 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:13 Probulous wrote:On May 13 2011 15:11 ShadeR wrote:
I salute you intrigue. THE BUTTHURT IS AWESOME. Helpful post right here. Be constructive or get out please. Constructiveness is always a criterion for posting. My post was one of glee from the responses that the OP has evoked. Dare i say not every poster on this forum must join you in mindless bickering. Some of us just want to show appreciation.
I stil don't see how this post add anything to the discussion other than your appreciation for rear-end shenanigans.
By all mean be gleeful but try and be contructive. This is clearly a sensitive topic for some and this comment doesn't help anybody. Is that asking too much?
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On May 13 2011 15:25 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:21 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 15:18 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 15:10 Probulous wrote:On May 13 2011 15:03 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 14:58 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: He has a point but you can't argue it so you attack him as a person. Top notch, bro. Nobody gains anything from this article, if it was more about BW compared to SC2 work ethics and how SC2 could develop i'd love it. Now it does that barely and it also shits on SC2 competition AND it has a huge BW bias. It was sarcasm, I tried to make it obvious but I guess it wasn't so successful. I already stated my view on what I think the reasons and benefits of this article are, I am not going to write pages every time just to tweak it a little. Here: On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. I think that TL knew full well what it was doing, and the sarcasm in the earlier post was to point out that TL was NOT trying to alienate people, but so many people take such personal offense to this FE and post in such disrespectful tones to the people who have provided so much that it is almost embarrassing. Those are people I think this site could do without, so maybe there was a bit of truth to what I was saying, if only from my personal bias. On May 13 2011 15:01 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:55 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 14:25 RHMVNovus wrote:
I like, actually, that it immediately precedes and is followed by TSL3 news.
'Here's a recap of your irrelevant, farcical tournament put on by TeamLiquid.net.'
A sort of memento mori to everyone putting on the event. It's nice. Perhaps TL planned all of this to get rid of posters/viewers like you, wouldn't that be something (: If only you'd go away instead. Instead you all circlejerk in your own forum. I think we will all be here until BW dies and then maybe some of us will join you SC2 guys, then we can all be friends yay! Come on mate. You were doing so well. Restraint! I think we have both tried to outline something positive from this article. Respect! As to the rest of you guys, try and add something to this discussion. People who are leaving TL because of this are people to whom my previous post does not apply because I was trying to present some ideas about how to mature as a community, and that community would logically not include those that leave it. I see; On May 13 2011 08:18 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 08:11 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:08 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 08:06 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 08:01 Beyonder wrote:On May 13 2011 08:00 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 07:57 billyX333 wrote:On May 13 2011 07:55 Ribbon wrote:
[quote]
I have never in my life read a sports article on the front page of a sport's biggest website arguing that the sport in question was a farce.
Have you ever seen a Sports Illustrated with a cover story of "The Top 20 Reasons Football is For Retards?"
OP may make a good argument, but it's needless inflammatory and condescending. hello fellow american. have you ever read an article about american soccer or listened to jim rome talk about soccer obviously not On the FIFA site? Teamliquid isn't some guy, or even a big e-sports site. It's the BW/SC2 website. Granted, a large part of the reason Team Liquid is so big is because pro gamers post here, and we just ran a front-page article calling them a bunch of lazy pussies whose games are only good for comedy, so I hope they have thick skins. We are a news site, we are not blizzard. The top news sites have covered such topics, of course. I will stop complaining if you link me to an official news post in the last ten years on this site saying Brood War sucks, or even sucked at that particular time compared to some point in the past. Bonus points if it insults every single player and calls the scene a farce or some similar language. wtf. every post you've made is based around a huge exaggeration or a bad analogy. this article didnt say sc2 sucks... The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. In big, bold letters too! Why is the SC2 scene a farce?
It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is (Z)Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination.
Because all the players are lazy assholes who don't even care about the game, of course No, it's because the players are not trying that hard because the game does not demand it from them. Take yourself for example - can't even make 50% winrate at D level on ICCup, is already Platinum in SC2. And you have played a LOT of BW games. Seems like there is some value to this argument, if a D level noob in BW can be "Platinum" in SC2. No wonder you are defending your cakewalk. On May 13 2011 08:21 Murderotica wrote:On May 13 2011 08:19 Ribbon wrote:
I think I'm going to go play Starcraft, rather than keep arguing and eventually getting myself banned for being stupid.
I've been playing Brood War recently, and enjoying myself, but it's a little less appealing now. I think I'll play SC2 instead. I guess people will have it that little bit harder getting from D to D+ now since you aren't there to give them a boost. Truly you are the one who will show us the way to maturity as a community. I admitted I let my emotions ride earlier and thus I am not trying to act as a role model. I just posted some conjecturing as to why I thought this was a good post. Just because my analysis of the thread led me to the conclusion that we should be more civil (and I have been trying since, I think you will admit) and I wasn't in prior posts shouldn't cheapen the message it could have to others who are maybe already more patient and manner than I am. Shooting it down like this makes you no better, anyway, because an idea can be good regardless of who put it forth, and trying to deny it based on reputation rather than making a concrete response is also childish.
Sorry for jumping on you then, I did go back and look at your other posts in this thread and they actually were much better and constructive rather then just insulting.
My apologies.
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great article intrigue. i agree w/ 100% of it.
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On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals.
From the article:
"The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results."
Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks.
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On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks.
Read the next paragraph. He 100% attributes this success to playing the master game, Brood War, and continues on to say that they sucked at BW as well, only standing out when compared to foreigners.
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On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks.
Was that the only part of the thread you read? Because then it goes on to say what useless players they were in brood war, and that they only moved because they had no chance to earn any money in BW, and that if these shitty unknown bad players could become GSL champions, imagine what a real BW champion could do. Also it states that the entire proscene of SC2 is a farce.
Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks.
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On May 13 2011 15:55 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks. Read the next paragraph. He 100% attributes this success to playing the master game, Brood War, and continues on to say that they sucked at BW as well, only standing out when compared to foreigners.
Sorry for off topic, but how can you have 1800+ posts and remain a drone? O.o
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On May 13 2011 15:55 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks. Read the next paragraph. He 100% attributes this success to playing the master game, Brood War, and continues on to say that they sucked at BW as well, only standing out when compared to foreigners.
Well yes, they did suck in Brood War (relative to other progamers), but at no point did he say that they were bad SC2 players. He points out that their extensive experience with the highly competitive and challenging BW proscene gave them the skills and mindset necessary to succeed in SC2. How is anything he wrote unreasonable or inaccurate?
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On May 13 2011 15:57 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks. Was that the only part of the thread you read? Because then it goes on to say what useless players they were in brood war, and that they only moved because they had no chance to earn any money in BW, and that if these shitty unknown bad players could become GSL champions, imagine what a real BW champion could do. Also it states that the entire proscene of SC2 is a farce. Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks.
He said that guys like MC, Nestea, Fruitdealer sucked in BW, which they did. Also yes, many of these players switched to SC2 only because they couldn't succeed in BW. Have you ever even bothered to read the countless interviews questioning these players about why they switched? In almost every case, it's for that exact reason.
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On May 13 2011 15:58 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:55 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks. Read the next paragraph. He 100% attributes this success to playing the master game, Brood War, and continues on to say that they sucked at BW as well, only standing out when compared to foreigners. Sorry for off topic, but how can you have 1800+ posts and remain a drone? O.o
Profile icons are also based off of a user's join date. There is a detailed thread about it somewhere, but the mods have plagued it with horrible sorcery to hide the secrets of the "formula" determining profile icons.
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Because he's forever a drone.
Side note: there are a select few who have this trend for various reasons. As for his, your guess is as good as mine!
Let the theatre of absurd proceed! Rhinoceros!
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On May 13 2011 15:59 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 15:55 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 15:51 DarkMatter_ wrote:On May 13 2011 14:26 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 14:15 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 14:13 writer22816 wrote:On May 13 2011 14:05 Severedevil wrote:
So...
Nearly every poster who is familiar with the competitive scenes of both games agrees with the article.
Nearly every poster who is only familiar with the competitive scene of SC2 disagrees with the article.
I wonder why. This. The amount of hate that Intrigue gets from upset SC2 fanboys is just sad. Did he not say that he enjoyed the games too? Did he not say that he sympathizes with the BW players who struggled to make a living? Why the hell are you getting so upset when you don't even know anything about the BW scene, lmao. That's exactly what I said...but you phrased it better. >< The reason SC2 fanboys are upset is because of the arrogance most BW fanboy takes on in the thread, and because of that the OP stated on the frontpage of Team Liquid that SC2 is a farce in comparison to BW, while SC2 is dominating the site when it comes to visitors, or atleast so I'd imagine. Also the OP only stated just that. 'SC2 sucks, and only scrubs are playing it. I don't care who you like, they suck because they wern't good in brood war, two years ago. BW players would be awesome if they switched over to SC2 because I say so.' Arrogance, condescending- and bad manner combined with a weak standpoint rarely raises pleasant debates. I'm more confused over you asking why. edit: I don't care if it's true or not, I really don't, but saying that the SC2 scene is a farce is going too far imo. Edit edit: also saying that every Sc2 player sucks is kind of a dick move and a mood killer right before a TSL finals. From the article: "The three GSL winners, (Z)FruitDealer, (Z)NesTea, and (P)MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. (Z)FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective (Z)NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss (P)MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results." Yep, he totally said that every SC2 player sucks. Read the next paragraph. He 100% attributes this success to playing the master game, Brood War, and continues on to say that they sucked at BW as well, only standing out when compared to foreigners. Well yes, they did suck in Brood War (relative to other progamers), but at no point did he say that they were bad SC2 players. He points out that their extensive experience with the highly competitive and challenging BW proscene gave them the skills and mindset necessary to succeed in SC2. How is anything he wrote unreasonable or inaccurate?
He starts off the article by saying the entire competition in SC2 is a farce, doesn't that imply that he thinks they suck in SC2 as well?
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Why do you think SC2 pros go to korea to play? Because it offers the best atmosphere to practice and play with the largest pool of high calibur players. All these people hating on the op are seriously morons and need to mature. Its these reasons why myself and many people I know have no interest in reading posts on this site anymore. Which is a shame. Instead of dramaticizing why people are being baned from the forum, or whos plugging what or crying about quality posts as this one people should just shut up and play the game.
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What i don't like is the whole "They were bad in BW therefore they are bad in SC2, it's just that SC2 competition is a farce". It's very black and white and doesn't account for the fact that everyone develop differently. Just using old statistics to rate players isn't a great idea. Just look at Fernando Torres the football player. If you look at his older statistics they were frigging awesome, now he's called Fernandon't Scorres cause he is in such a rut. There's loads of examples of the same thing but in reverse, football players/swimmers/gamers/whatever that were nothing special for ages then suddenly found their groove and started developing really fast. There's also alot of examples of natural talents that are awesome at a early age but lose the momentum and falter when others catch up.
The article uses win percentages to prove a point, but the actual thruth is that there's so many more variables than just how good you were 1-2-3 years ago in a different game, under different coaching and probably a different mindset.
Edit: I'm not saying that SC2 competition is on par with BW, it clearly isn't. But i disagree with the way the OP argues this point.
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BW is awesome, and SC2 is awesome, and i feel lucky as fuck that i can come home every day and there are vods posted for me to watch as i try to forget the nightmare that is "9 to 5 work day".
SC2 fans who dismiss BW only do it because they are excited about SC2 and werent around for BW back when things felt a thousand times more cut-throat and there was so much backstory to everything. If any of them had tried to get to even like C- on iccup back in the day theyd have a whole new perspective. They have their hearts in the right place defending sc2 but they just werent there so the points they try to make are confusing or frustrating at best for those who were. If they had been there and put in the hours and dedication then their view would simply be different and thats just how the human mind works.
Thanks to the OP for the effort and i too am looking forward to when SC2 takes on the competitive legitimacy that BW had. There simply is something different about watching a game between two players who just dont make mistakes. Ever. In the coming years, these early SC2 vods are going to be mostly unwatchable when compared to what we will eventually see. A longtime BW fan knows this, because he has lived through it already. Hence the OP.
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You could also say: "Moon invented a whole new way to play NE in War 3 therefor when he switches to sc2 he will clearly be an innovator", it obviously isn't that way, of the few games i saw him play non was really "innovating", quality games non the less, but not innovating.
Also you make the assumption that MVP,MC,Nestea,FruitDealer are the "top" players of SC2 but if you think of it... how good are those player doing in NASL and TSL3... right.
No foreign has won gsl yet, true. But how many of them actually tried to win expect for Jinro, TLO and HuK, i can't think of anyone that really sat in korea for few seasons, practiced on the maps..etc.
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Just a question for the people bashing this article, how much BW have you watched? Not played, watched.
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