The Elephant in the Room - Page 145

mdb

Bulgaria4059 Posts

May 13 2011 07:25 GMT

#2881

On May 13 2011 16:20 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Just a question for the people bashing this article, how much BW have you watched? Not played, watched.

My thoughts exactly. Its obvious that the people getting angry with this article are all people who just havent watched, played and therefore dont understand bw at all.

rift

1819 Posts

May 13 2011 07:32 GMT

#2882

I am actually surprised at the backlash from some of the newer players to this article. I thought it was self-evident that BW players are on average better than their SC2 counterparts to a fair degree, particularly the top players. I guess a lot of people on TL these days don't have much knowledge of the scenes in a comparative sense.

Meapak_Ziphh

United States6786 Posts

May 13 2011 07:33 GMT

#2883

On May 13 2011 16:25 mdb wrote:

Show nested quote +

My thoughts exactly. Its obvious that the people getting angry with this article are all people who just havent watched, played and therefore dont understand bw at all.

I want everyone who's bashing this article to go out and watch a flash/Jaedong/bisu Vod. Once you've watched several of those then come back and we can continue the debate since we'll all have the same base knowledge.

Edit: anyone who's seen a Samsung LR thread should understand the pain I just went through, I didn't include stork in the list of players to watch :/

Plague1503

Croatia466 Posts

May 13 2011 07:35 GMT

#2884

I don't get why any side would get butthurt over this. Whether you agree with it or not (I personally agree with some, disagree with some other things), it's just a column on the TL page. It's a PERSONAL OPINION of ONE PERSON, and it's an excellent read and great food for thought, no matter which side of the "fence" you're on.

TheButtonmen

Canada1403 Posts

May 13 2011 07:35 GMT

#2885

On May 13 2011 16:33 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why?

I don't follow BW, I've never followed BW and I don't care about BW. I don't need a single lick of knowledge about BW to enjoy playing/watching SC2. No amount of knowledge about BW will lower my enjoyment of the SC2 games I've watched nor will any amount of BW knowledge make me acknowledge that the SC2 scene is a farce.

sc14s

United States5052 Posts

May 13 2011 07:37 GMT

#2886

On May 13 2011 16:25 mdb wrote:

Show nested quote +

My thoughts exactly. Its obvious that the people getting angry with this article are all people who just havent watched, played and therefore dont understand bw at all.

I've watched a good amount of broodwar over the years and I cant really agree with the article.. my issue with it all is games are different, the longer they wait the less of "OMG ownage" *if* they ever switch as well as the fact that there is no evidence that they will truly lay the beat down in a whole different animal of a game *read* mechanics help but arent as huge of an issue in this game compared to sc1.

Noone watching sc2 finds it a huge deal if they do or dont switch. I mean it would be kind of cool, especially if they did do well, but there will be another flash just like in all sports there will eventually be someone better..

if the sc1 current pros get passed up and stay with sc1? more power to them i personally think its not a real important issue for the starcraft2 scene to increase in popularity. so each can enjoy their game, i think this article if anything is BAD not a good thing for either game other than to create emnity where there really shouldn't be.

mdb

Bulgaria4059 Posts

May 13 2011 07:38 GMT

#2887

On May 13 2011 16:35 TheButtonmen wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, if you dont understand bw, how do you know if sc2 scene compared to bw scene isnt farce?

karpo

Sweden1998 Posts

May 13 2011 07:38 GMT

#2888

On May 13 2011 16:25 mdb wrote:

Show nested quote +

My thoughts exactly. Its obvious that the people getting angry with this article are all people who just havent watched, played and therefore dont understand bw at all.

So that's why even a TL mod and ex TL mod disagree with parts of this article?

BW fans are just as defensive about their favorite game as SC2 fans are, they show it differently. SC2 fans rage over the article and BW fans defend it by saying that SC2 fans just don't understand.

To me the article is biased and makes assumptions. Using hype quotes about Flash and JD, quotes GuemChi's experience at ST and states that their way of training is objectively bad. The quote was a personal experience thing and he even said that the practice wasn't bad but that he was used to a more strict way of training. That to me is bias affecting what you write and it doesn't help his argument at all.

Meapak_Ziphh

United States6786 Posts

May 13 2011 07:43 GMT

#2889

On May 13 2011 16:35 TheButtonmen wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then why are you even debating in this thread? You have no idea what a BW pro looks like because you've never seen one play. You obviously don't need to care about BW to enjoy sc2 however to properly debate this article you at least need to know what a pro BW game looks like before you can understand the whole situation.

Edit: the purpose of this article is not to diminish your enjoyment of sc2, all it does is provide prospective. Clearly a lot of people didn't know/don't understand the skill difference between BW pros and sc2 pros (note, it's not the game difficulty being discussed only the players abilities).

eviltomahawk

United States11135 Posts

May 13 2011 07:44 GMT

#2890

On May 13 2011 16:38 mdb wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, if you dont understand bw, how do you know if sc2 scene compared to bw scene isnt farce?

Ignorance is bliss.

When you're enjoying something, sometimes it's best not to think about how you should be enjoying it less or if there is a better alternative.

saritenite

Singapore1680 Posts

May 13 2011 07:45 GMT

#2891

This is a milestone; this marks TLFE's transition between BW and SC2.
Be glad or be sad, the future has arrived.

I can only hope SC2 manages to surpass its predecessor's legacy, because it's taking all of the new blood. Please be good.

sc14s

United States5052 Posts

May 13 2011 07:46 GMT

#2892

I sort of wish there were two TL websites just because im tired of all the BW & SC2 arguments constantly. cant people just fucking enjoy one or the other? This shit gets tiring.

Ruscour

5233 Posts

May 13 2011 07:50 GMT

#2893

Brood War is bound to fall. It has a large, loyal fanbase, but that fanbase is growing far slower than SC2's fanbase, and this will continue to deteriorate, because the game looks like balls. And that's a factor.

The transition will be slow, but it IS a transition. Brood War will die eventually. And Blizzard wants it to.

dormer

United States1314 Posts

May 13 2011 07:51 GMT

#2894

On May 13 2011 16:25 mdb wrote:

Show nested quote +

My thoughts exactly. Its obvious that the people getting angry with this article are all people who just havent watched, played and therefore dont understand bw at all.

This just isn't true, though. I've watched competitive BW, it's what got me interested in Starcraft in the first place. My issue with the article isn't that he's saying that BW pros are better than SC2 pros -- BW pros train ridiculously hard in an extremely competitive environment (whether that's a good environment or not is a discussion in itself), if they bring that same RTS / Starcraft background and work ethic to SC2, of course a lot of them would probably do very well.

The issue that I think a lot of us are upset with is how the OP just dismisses current SC2 as a farce just because it doesn't stack up to the extremely high competitive standard of BW. The thing is that SC2 fans love SC2 just as much as BW fans love BW; we care about our favorite players and teams. Not to mention the large number of players, casters, and community members that put their livelihoods into SC2. It's extremely disrespectful and demeaning to dismiss a global community of gamers just because their game hasn't reached in less than a year the same pinnacles that BW has achieved after a decade.

It doesn't mean that SC2 fans hate BW or anything like that. I mean, at the last GSTL, several people in the LR thread said they were actually, literally, freaking CRYING when Slayers won because they were so happy to see the Emperor's team win.

I also have a lot of respect for the people that have been around TL for a long time and made it what it is, an excellent Starcraft resource driven by its community.

SC2 is still pretty new, and I'm sure it has its flaws. There's a lot it can learn from BW, and if / when the top-level BW pros switch to SC2, that will be a big step in the growth of the game. I'm totally fine with discussing all of those things, in fact I'd be really curious to know what the BW vets here think about SC2's future. Discussion, yes. Dismissing, ridiculing a game that millions of people are passionate about? No -- that's what I think a lot of us "newbs" are taking an issue with.

rysecake

United States2632 Posts

May 13 2011 07:52 GMT

#2895

On May 13 2011 16:35 TheButtonmen wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then you have absolutely no credibility in a comparison between bw and sc2. Like I figured, most people angry at this article never played/saw sc1 games.

ShadeR

Australia7535 Posts

May 13 2011 07:54 GMT

#2896

On May 13 2011 15:31 Probulous wrote:

Show nested quote +

I stil don't see how this post add anything to the discussion other than your appreciation for rear-end shenanigans.

By all mean be gleeful but try and be contructive. This is clearly a sensitive topic for some and this comment doesn't help anybody. Is that asking too much?

Yes and you've spent the last 2 posts criticizing other peoples posts or not being constructive. How do these posts add anything to the discussion? You are a hypocrite playing pretend Mod.

AmericanUmlaut

Germany2597 Posts

May 13 2011 07:55 GMT

#2897

On May 13 2011 16:46 sc14s wrote:
I sort of wish there were two TL websites just because im tired of all the BW & SC2 arguments constantly. cant people just fucking enjoy one or the other? This shit gets tiring.

I don't understand why people can't just enjoy both. SC2 and BW (and WC3) are fun games to play and to watch. I haven't played BW since 2002 or so, but I've been watching a lot of casts, and I absolutely enjoy seeing what talented players can do there. At the same time, I watch a lot of SC2, and those games are fun, too - and getting better with every passing season, as the game begins to mature.

I feel like the basic argument of the article is just silly. If the best RTS players on the planet switched to playing SC2, they'd be really good at it. Is that really such a big deal that it requires a front page post written in such a confrontational tone?

TheButtonmen

Canada1403 Posts

May 13 2011 07:56 GMT

#2898

On May 13 2011 16:52 rysecake wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then you have absolutely no credibility in a comparison between bw and sc2. Like I figured, most people angry at this article never played/saw sc1 games.

Except I never compared BW to SC2.

On May 13 2011 16:51 dormer wrote:
The issue that I think a lot of us are upset with is how the OP just dismisses current SC2 as a farce just because it doesn't stack up to the extremely high competitive standard of BW. The thing is that SC2 fans love SC2 just as much as BW fans love BW; we care about our favorite players and teams. Not to mention the large number of players, casters, and community members that put their livelihoods into SC2. It's extremely disrespectful and demeaning to dismiss a global community of gamers just because their game hasn't reached in less than a year the same pinnacles that BW has achieved after a decade

.....

SC2 is still pretty new, and I'm sure it has its flaws. There's a lot it can learn from BW, and if / when the top-level BW pros switch to SC2, that will be a big step in the growth of the game. I'm totally fine with discussing all of those things, in fact I'd be really curious to know what the BW vets here think about SC2's future. Discussion, yes. Dismissing, ridiculing a game that millions of people are passionate about? No -- that's what I think a lot of us "newbs" are taking an issue with.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel but much much more clearly put, thanks Domer.

Slakter

Sweden1947 Posts

May 13 2011 07:58 GMT

#2899

On May 13 2011 16:50 Ruscour wrote:
Brood War is bound to fall. It has a large, loyal fanbase, but that fanbase is growing far slower than SC2's fanbase, and this will continue to deteriorate, because the game looks like balls. And that's a factor.

The transition will be slow, but it IS a transition. Brood War will die eventually. And Blizzard wants it to.

How can this be true in any way?

At least in South Korea this just simply IS NOT true. Brood war is far from dying, players are still playing at a higher level than SC2 will see in many years, the game is constantly changing (Through pros working out new builds, not patches) and the competition is as hard as it has ever been. I cant see how anyone can think that Brood war is dying.