EPTThis battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard.
If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year.
BW will be dead by now for sure.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 140
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard. If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year. BW will be dead by now for sure. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:24 sandyph wrote: but if a B teamer like IrOn can get that much in just 4 month, then surely a genius like Flash can get much much more than 200K per year He did make than 200k per year, quite a bit more. His base salary alone is rumored to be 300 million won (~ $275k) with performance bonuses, and last year he won 4 golds (40 million won each) and 2 silvers (20 million won each). His titles together come to 200 million won (~ $180k), which combined with his salary was $455k, and that doesn't include SPL MVPs, WCG (which he won), etc. So in short, he has no incentive to leave  | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:33 hydraden wrote: This battle between SC2 and BW all came from Blizzard. If they let KeSPA organize SC2 matches, most BW players will migrate last year. BW will be dead by now for sure. unbelievable | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:25 Enyalus wrote: OP's argument was that the level of competition and skill seen in SC2 right now is not on the level of Brood War, and that once more A-team BW pros switch, they will dominate the scene. Why's that getting so much flak? It's completely true. Maybe it doesn't need to be said by the OP, but there's nothing wrong with the article. It's kind of obvious if you look at MC, or Marineking, or NesTea's careers in BW. Seriously... Please don't just jump in the discussion without seeing what everyone's saying. I'll get you into it though. A: It's a differnet game. If you're good at chess doesn't mean you're gonna be the champion at a marathon. B: The OP's saying that the SC2 scene is a farce, which is why most SC2 fans think that the OP is biased and only wants to show BW elitism, which imo is probably true, which means that every BW fanboy in the thread will go like "Pft ofcourse any BW pro would hulk smash the SC2 scene", whereas SC2 fanboys go "I don't care about brood war, I like the progamers im rooting for, why is this on the front page?" C: There's no sign whatsoever so far that SC:BW pros would be dominating the scene, if they decided to switch over. Also there's a logical fallacy in the OP that BW players would win everything in SC2 but don't join because they wouldn't get any money, whereas people repeatedly state that if they did indeed in everything, they'd earn triple the amount they do now. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:21 Euronyme wrote: Yeah but then again, most of the SC2 players in Korea have played SC:BW before, as it's the biggest RTS there. There are foreigners from for instance the WC3 scene who are way way way better than Rainbow and Fruitdealer, so your point's only valid if these people were considerd to actually be top notch. Right now former WC3 players are just as good as former SC:BW players.. Guess why? Because it's a new game, they've played it for over a year, and that's what's beaing meassured. Not what they did years ago. GSL is held in Korea, Korea = Starcraft. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the winner of the GSL's probably gonna be an ex BW player. It doesn't mean that they're the best though. Look at TSL. Are there WC3 players way better than Nestea, MC, or MVP? Look, there are WC3 pros in Korea too. Where was Moon in GSL? Guess why? Because you're comparing the top WC3 foreign pro players to SC:BW foreigners, who were like, A-rank ICCUP but nowhere near B-team level BW. Maybe that's why. Just because GSL is held in korea doesn't mean it's going to be a BW player that wins. It could be a new SC2 player. It could be a korean WC3 pro. Or... do they suddenly not have that? Idk, I thought Wemade FOX had a WC3 team. Furthermore, please don't say ex-BW player. We know everyone's an ex-BW player in Korea. We're saying ex-BW pro. Difference. Big difference. TSL, as much as I love it, is an online tournament. I love Thorzain, and I love Naniwa (not as much ), but I want to see them in Korea taking GSLs before we say everyone's on a level playing field regardless of background. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:27 ZeroChrome wrote: The thing is, Flash didn't lose a lot when he first started. He made the OSL first try, the MSL on his second and began appearing in PL only 3 months after his debut. This process takes years for many players. Flash simply has the natural talent to dominate anything he puts his mind to. When I say winning shit. I mean winning OSLs and MSLs. That's why I said 16. If you want to include the event he won at 9 sure. Compared to other pros, he is a very fast learner. SC2 will be a completely new challenge for him. Like I said before, the timing attacks are fierce and there aren't as many soft counters he'll be able to pull-off. Goes back to the last line of my first paragraph, "There will be an adjustment period and how long this adjustment period is any person's guess." Surely, he'll be in the top 200 within a month's time. That's just my guess. | ||
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JoeJin
United States77 Posts
No, the reason why Nestea, Fruitdealer, MC, MVP had won is because they are particularly skilled at the game and are able to play the game at a grand level. I'm not saying that if Flash or Jaedong switched that they wouldn't be great, but SC2 is a very different game than SC1, there are some mechanics that transfer over very well, but the sheer amount of difference between the two games makes it much different to whoever wants to come from BW. Even the great Flash would need AT LEAST 1-2 months before he could have as much understanding as some of the better players in Code S. Don't take away the accomplishments of those that had worked so hard to get them, it is very disrespectful to those that had gone through a lot to accomplish that so many strive for. | ||
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:13 Mailing wrote: I have asked this question 2 times already, and I'll ask it again. What is this supposed to accomplish? What positives were garnered from the editorial other than making a lot of people upset? It's about as effective as writing personal letters to pro sc2 players telling them they suck and should practice more if they ever want to be as good as SC1 pros. On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote: I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 Census 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children. 1-2 pages ago (: | ||
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s3raph
58 Posts
On May 13 2011 10:42 Bayyne wrote: First of all, Glenn Beck is an inspiration to all the GED accredited, politically motivated, sensational desiring activists. >_> Second, there's a big difference between sensationalistic reports and opinions; you probably should know the difference since you seem to have such a wonderful grasp on the root of the problem that is the "forms of misinformation and propaganda" and "birther controversies". Disagreeing with an author's point of view? Fine. Commenting on his questionable facts? I love it. But incessant crying over "inappropriate" language and tone? I don't know about that one. We can agree to disagree here, since I don't really see the difference between the OP and anything written by Glenn Beck. Its an editorial opinion piece that fails to provide a solution or a point of view that constructive addresses the point. It's like, as someone else said in response to my post, like hearing about the US deficit without any real way to do anything about it. Does that justify that anything having to do with the US deficit should be written in a highly aggressive and controversial manner with a clear-cut antagonist? Hard pressed to say that it should be. Honestly, sensationalistic reports are just opinions in and of themselves. There is no real difference between them, in my mind. Since you disagree, I suppose we should just not argue over what constitutes an editorial then. Moving on ... I'm fine with disagreements over content and commenting over the OP's questionable 'quantitative' analysis; we seem to be in agreement there. But giving how divisive TL.net already is over various BW vs SC2 threads, yeah, I think the language and the tone is wildly inappropriate. It only the forums into more and more of a quagmire imo, rather than a unified or united community. Don't care whose fault it was/is/etc, but this article is living proof of how tone and language can severely damage that sort of thing. | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:36 Euronyme wrote: Please don't just jump in the discussion without seeing what everyone's saying. I'll get you into it though. A: It's a differnet game. If you're good at chess doesn't mean you're gonna be the champion at a marathon. B: The OP's saying that the SC2 scene is a farce, which is why most SC2 fans think that the OP is biased and only wants to show BW elitism, which imo is probably true, which means that every BW fanboy in the thread will go like "Pft ofcourse any BW pro would hulk smash the SC2 scene", whereas SC2 fanboys go "I don't care about brood war, I like the progamers im rooting for, why is this on the front page?" C: There's no sign whatsoever so far that SC:BW pros would be dominating the scene, if they decided to switch over. Also there's a logical fallacy in the OP that BW players would win everything in SC2 but don't join because they wouldn't get any money, whereas people repeatedly state that if they did indeed in everything, they'd earn triple the amount they do now. To be fair, it's not just BW players we're talking about here, but the best RTS players in the world. TBLS don't fuck around. Now I wait to see how many people don't get what that is...sigh* Nothing in the OP was really flat out wrong...but certainly controversial and perhaps preemptive in passing judgment...(disregarding the 10 years of development SC2 has had to build on) | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:36 ghrur wrote: Are there WC3 players way better than Nestea, MC, or MVP? Look, there are WC3 pros in Korea too. Where was Moon in GSL? Guess why? Because you're comparing the top WC3 foreign pro players to SC:BW foreigners, who were like, A-rank ICCUP but nowhere near B-team level BW. Maybe that's why. Just because GSL is held in korea doesn't mean it's going to be a BW player that wins. It could be a new SC2 player. It could be a korean WC3 pro. Or... do they suddenly not have that? Idk, I thought Wemade FOX had a WC3 team. Furthermore, please don't say ex-BW player. We know everyone's an ex-BW player in Korea. We're saying ex-BW pro. Difference. Big difference. TSL, as much as I love it, is an online tournament. I love Thorzain, and I love Naniwa (not as much ), but I want to see them in Korea taking GSLs before we say everyone's on a level playing field regardless of background. TSL is the only tournament where foreigners and Koreans have actually clashed, and it didn't turn out too well for the Koreans. Most foreigners had a WC3 background. I don't think what game you played over a year ago is relevant to what's going on in todays pro scene regardless, and your three sentences of nitpicking a typo of player instead of pro-player doesn't really help your case as much as you might think it does. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:24 sandyph wrote: but if a B teamer like IrOn can get that much in just 4 month, then surely a genius like Flash can get much much more than 200K per year, since he will win all the GSL code S (6x50million Won), Super Tournament (100million), world championship (30million) and Blizzard Cup (50million Won) in Korea alone that a whooping 480million Won ($441,000) not to mention Dreamhack, NASL, IEM, WCG, etc which can nett him another $100,000 easily thats $500,000 per year and if he join TSL he will even get salary !!!!! When Flash is done with BW he could very well start traveling around the world and collecting free money from SC2 . He will enjoy international fame from people who knows what SC2 is and maybe not that much fame that he gets right now in Korea . | ||
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MechKing
United States3004 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:39 s3raph wrote: We can agree to disagree here, since I don't really see the difference between the OP and anything written by Glenn Beck. Its an editorial opinion piece that fails to provide a solution or a point of view that constructive addresses the point. It's like, as someone else said in response to my post, like hearing about the US deficit without any real way to do anything about it. Does that justify that anything having to do with the US deficit should be written in a highly aggressive and controversial manner with a clear-cut antagonist? Hard pressed to say that it should be. Honestly, sensationalistic reports are just opinions in and of themselves. There is no real difference between them, in my mind. Since you disagree, I suppose we should just not argue over what constitutes an editorial then. Moving on ... I'm fine with disagreements over content and commenting over the OP's questionable 'quantitative' analysis; we seem to be in agreement there. But giving how divisive TL.net already is over various BW vs SC2 threads, yeah, I think the language and the tone is wildly inappropriate. It only the forums into more and more of a quagmire imo, rather than a unified or united community. Don't care whose fault it was/is/etc, but this article is living proof of how tone and language can severely damage that sort of thing. It's an editorial. Stop saying that there needs to be a solution. Just because a teacher describes a problem doesn't mean he/she is obligated to provide a solution. What did Intrigue just do? He provided details that outlined a problem that he believed exists. There is no burden on him to offer up a solution. Stop saying that it needs to be there. And how about you try to say: here's my plan to solve the deficit, because last time I checked, those solutions sucked balls. And the second part I bolded I believe is personally untrue. I visit this site a lot, and I have yet to remember a single time in the last few months were BW vs SC2 flame was crazily out of hand. This community is getting used to crossing both worlds. Don't try to suddenly accuse either side of shit slinging. On May 13 2011 13:46 MechKing wrote: This topic is so disrespectful to the SC2 pros out there. You're basically saying they don't work hard, and they're just going to be dominated once any A-teamer moves on to SC2. What's the point of that, really? I hope you realize that the people that the OP is talking about were BW players....so technically he's bashing them? And let's remember that Intrigue first: 1. Praises the old greats like Boxer, Nada, and July. 2. I HOPE YOU GUYS REALIZE that Intrigue has stated that he's excited to see games and loves some of them to death. | ||
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Scamp
United States1086 Posts
Okay, I take that back. I see why, but until he or some other S-class player transfers over it's really just an educated theory. People want to believe it'll be true, but there's no way of truly knowing. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
could get people thinking stir up the pot get lots of publicity You know, sort of like what it's doing right now. There is a message within, get to work now before THEY come. Who THEY are is anyone's guess (it could be some child prodigy wiz for all I care), but to Intrigue it seems pretty clear. He wants the four pillars to clean house. Every pro Korean I've heard interviewed said these players would make the transition very well. I'm on the fence as to how dominant they would be. I think the game design would actually hinder their progress more than it would help. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:38 hydraden wrote: What's unbelievable? State your argument, please. Don't just say half sentence, and thinking you are better than somebody else. i think its better if you state why you would believe something as absolute as this first lol | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 13 2011 13:46 Zergneedsfood wrote: I hope you realize that the people that the OP is talking about were BW players....so technically he's bashing them? And let's remember that Intrigue first: 1. Praises the old greats like Boxer, Nada, and July. 2. I HOPE YOU GUYS REALIZE that Intrigue has stated that he's excited to see games and loves some of them to death. I visit this site a lot, and I have yet to remember a single time in the last few months were BW vs SC2 flame was crazily out of hand. Because mods close them. This one gets immunity because it has fancy numbers and was written by a mod. I hope you realize that the people that the OP is talking about were BW players....so technically he's bashing them? Yes, he did. He essentially said that they are all washed-up and STILL can be competitive in SC2. | ||
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