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Just watch the game you enjoy and don´t belittle ppl who enjoy watching something else. There´s some good stuff in the OP but the overall tone and belittling completely takes away any credibility from the article.
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Just re-read the article and I'm now utterly baffled as to why this silly piece of shit is even on the front-page. Stuff it away on one of the many unused forum sections of this site.
User was warned for this post
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On May 13 2011 13:14 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:07 out4blood wrote:
Sorry, but your rhetorical efforts to defuse the obvious response, "It's a different game," fail completely.
It's a different game.
The mix of skills required are different enough from BW, that at the very tippy-top of the rankings, players who have the ideal mix for SC2 will rise to the top, even if they were not at the top of the BW rankings. As an analogy, take the sport of swimming; swimmers who gold medal at the 50 m breaststroke rarely gold medal at 400 m breaststroke, even though it is the same stroke! Yes, they are similar, but they are not the same.
We see this with the performance of world-class WC3 players. They are not tearing it up, either. Why not? Because it's a different game. Michael Phelps is to Swimming as Flash or Jaedong are to Starcraft. And BW players ARE tearing it up. 5/5 GSLs have gone to Broodwar Players. When hasn't a final gone to one of the former BW pros?
Yeah but then again, most of the SC2 players in Korea have played SC:BW before, as it's the biggest RTS there.
There are foreigners from for instance the WC3 scene who are way way way better than Rainbow and Fruitdealer, so your point's only valid if these people were considerd to actually be top notch.
Right now former WC3 players are just as good as former SC:BW players.. Guess why? Because it's a new game, they've played it for over a year, and that's what's beaing meassured. Not what they did years ago.
GSL is held in Korea, Korea = Starcraft. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the winner of the GSL's probably gonna be an ex BW player. It doesn't mean that they're the best though. Look at TSL.
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lol brood war. why you so fickle. the 3000000+ people who just joined tl dont care. just enjoy the games... its all about the storylines. are you saying that all broodwar games are bullshit unless flash or jeadong are playing, because they will always beat lesser players? shouldnt nada, july, and boxer be destroying everyone according to your thesis here?im not saying that bw skill=/= sc2 skill, but why are you attacking the whole sc2 scene? go back to bw and leave my sc2 alone.
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flash is sooo good he prolly only need 1 week before he starts taking games off mc like hotcakes
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On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:13 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:09 l10f wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 rysecake wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 SpaceYeti wrote:On May 13 2011 11:58 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. Why should I be interested in people who play a game I don't care about? Wow....just wow. I don't even know what to say here; this is just so sad.  I might be one of those who joined TL.net with SC2 Beta, so maybe I'm not in a position to point this out, but it is really disheartening to see people with this attitude towards the game that really started it all for professional, competitive RTS. I'll be honest, I didn't learn who Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, July, NaDa, or BoxeR were until after I joined TL.net, but when I did and I read about what they accomplished and watched VODs of their games on YouTube, etc., I realized that I had been missing out on something amazing. I have yet to see anything of that caliber in SC2. This guy knows his stuff. Humble virgin to the starcraft scene who appreciates the history of starcraft in general. honestlyy I'm willing to bet most people here shutting down sc1 are just newbies fresh to the starcraft scene who have something against sc1 (be it the graphics or something else). I see more of these types of people than sc1 players who shut down sc2 (which they shouldn't because sc2 is the successor to a legendary game). There's nothing wrong with liking both games. I love both games  But you love Cornell more than me and Sheep! D: And as an additional note....I would like SC2.... If only my computer didn't freeze when a single templar caused my computer to crash. On May 13 2011 13:09 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:05 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Um....isn't this article talking about the competition of the games....not which game is better?
Why are half of the people here thinking that it's an attack on SC2?
It's not. It's an argument stating that the best competition in SC2 has yet to come because the current crop is, at this point, comparatively worse than those who are dominating the BW scene. This is true. This line - "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." Is not true. How can you not see the problem with this? I don't see a problem with it. It's intrigue's opinion, and I partially agree. If you read the rest of his post, he give you a very compelling reason as to why the current scene is nothing compared to its true potential. It's an opinion that does not need to be said, and especially on the front page of a SC2-focused website. 1. It is an opinion that deserves to be said if it's well founded. And clearly you haven't paid enough attention to the post to really appreciate the position. 2. It's not an SC2-focused website. It's a website about Starcraft, not 1 or 2. I have asked this question 2 times already, and I'll ask it again. What is this supposed to accomplish? What positives were garnered from the editorial other than making a lot of people upset? It's about as effective as writing personal letters to pro sc2 players telling them they suck and should practice more if they ever want to be as good as SC1 pros. Does an editorial need a point? Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW, and those arguments should be heard and considered before people say: "What you doing brrrooo?" And since when were editorials supposed to be positive? Are we supposed to be constantly praising something that some people don't believe deserve praise? Of course not. There's two sides to every argument, and in this case, there's someone who's trying to point out something flawed in the status quo... That's why there's "letters to the editor"...because there ARE people dissatisfied, and they have a RIGHT to voice said dissatisfcation. And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments....which is fine I guess....there's all the more outrage over a different opinion that's merely trying to express a point with hard facts and evidence. It wasn't a baseless claim. It was argued.
Does an editorial need a point? - Yes, otherwise how is it different from a blog?
Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW, and those arguments should be heard and considered before people say: "What you doing brrrooo?" - And not a single solution was discussed in the OP. Nor has any been discussed in the 50~ pages I have read of this thread. As I have said, I have been reading it a lot and nothing positive as come from it.
And since when were editorials supposed to be positive? Are we supposed to be constantly praising something that some people don't believe deserve praise? Of course not. There's two sides to every argument, and in this case, there's someone who's trying to point out something flawed in the status quo... - I saw no discussions about the cons of brood war. You know, the concentration-camp like practice regimes and stuff? There was only one side discussed, and it was the one bashing SC2 as a competitive game because the players are not competitive enough according to the OP.
And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments - The only people who seem to be upset with SC2 and it's development are brood war fans.
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On May 13 2011 13:21 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:14 ghrur wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 out4blood wrote:
Sorry, but your rhetorical efforts to defuse the obvious response, "It's a different game," fail completely.
It's a different game.
The mix of skills required are different enough from BW, that at the very tippy-top of the rankings, players who have the ideal mix for SC2 will rise to the top, even if they were not at the top of the BW rankings. As an analogy, take the sport of swimming; swimmers who gold medal at the 50 m breaststroke rarely gold medal at 400 m breaststroke, even though it is the same stroke! Yes, they are similar, but they are not the same.
We see this with the performance of world-class WC3 players. They are not tearing it up, either. Why not? Because it's a different game. Michael Phelps is to Swimming as Flash or Jaedong are to Starcraft. And BW players ARE tearing it up. 5/5 GSLs have gone to Broodwar Players. When hasn't a final gone to one of the former BW pros? Yeah but then again, most of the SC2 players in Korea have played SC:BW before, as it's the biggest RTS there. There are foreigners from for instance the WC3 scene who are way way way better than Rainbow and Fruitdealer, so your point's only valid if these people were considerd to actually be top notch. Right now former WC3 players are just as good as former SC:BW players.. Guess why? Because it's a new game, they've played it for over a year, and that's what's beaing meassured. Not what they did years ago. GSL is held in Korea, Korea = Starcraft. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the winner of the GSL's probably gonna be an ex BW player. It doesn't mean that they're the best though. Look at TSL.
TSL is an online tournament
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On May 13 2011 12:06 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:03 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 12:02 1Eris1 wrote:On May 13 2011 11:59 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 11:55 Belial88 wrote:I'm (still) really surprised and embarrassed to be an SC2 fan considering the flaming and hate the OP is getting. Only, that's not really the case, more-so in the foreign scene but even in the Korean scene, the BW players only obviously had a head start because of the similarities of the game early on, now if you look at it, you have former BW pros doing well, former BW pros doing poorly, non-BW players doing well, non-BW players doing poorly, and everything in between. The current top players in SC2 aren't all players from BW, and it's still the first year or so. No, every top player in BW is amongst the *very top* of SC2 right now. July, Nada, Boxer, Rainbow, as the OP describes if you actually read his post, were old news when SC2 came out and had horrible records as of recently. MVP, Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, were the best BW players when SC2 was released that now play SC2. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. I think it's because the layout of it was very similar to the "BW is a better game than SC2" thread. Honestly though, MC makes alot more money than Flash does, so I don't really see why money alone would keep the top players to BW. If they really think they can smash everyone at SC2, they could probably make more money at it. Err flash makes at least 200k a year on salary alone. that doesn't include tournament winnings/other sponsherships etc. MC has only made around 150k this year. And I have a slight problem with the OP. It says former bonjwa iloveovv. FORMER BONJWA? I WAS NOT AWARE HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE BONJWA LIST. bastards. But no, actually I agree with the overall thread. I really want to see someone like Paralyze switch MC has made about 164k in 4 months. I made $10 today when I found a $10 bill. $10 gained in just 5 seconds. If I extrapolate that earnings rate you can clearly see that I make $63 million a year. No, MC does not make more than Flash, AND his earnings are highly unstable and unreliable.
but if a B teamer like IrOn can get that much in just 4 month, then surely a genius like Flash can get much much more than 200K per year, since he will win all the GSL code S (6x50million Won), Super Tournament (100million), world championship (30million) and Blizzard Cup (50million Won) in Korea alone
that a whooping 480million Won ($441,000)
not to mention Dreamhack, NASL, IEM, WCG, etc which can nett him another $100,000 easily
thats $500,000 per year
and if he join TSL he will even get salary !!!!!
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On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:13 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:09 l10f wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 rysecake wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 SpaceYeti wrote:On May 13 2011 11:58 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. Why should I be interested in people who play a game I don't care about? Wow....just wow. I don't even know what to say here; this is just so sad. I might be one of those who joined TL.net with SC2 Beta, so maybe I'm not in a position to point this out, but it is really disheartening to see people with this attitude towards the game that really started it all for professional, competitive RTS. I'll be honest, I didn't learn who Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, July, NaDa, or BoxeR were until after I joined TL.net, but when I did and I read about what they accomplished and watched VODs of their games on YouTube, etc., I realized that I had been missing out on something amazing. I have yet to see anything of that caliber in SC2. This guy knows his stuff. Humble virgin to the starcraft scene who appreciates the history of starcraft in general. honestlyy I'm willing to bet most people here shutting down sc1 are just newbies fresh to the starcraft scene who have something against sc1 (be it the graphics or something else). I see more of these types of people than sc1 players who shut down sc2 (which they shouldn't because sc2 is the successor to a legendary game). There's nothing wrong with liking both games. I love both games But you love Cornell more than me and Sheep! D: And as an additional note....I would like SC2.... If only my computer didn't freeze when a single templar caused my computer to crash. On May 13 2011 13:09 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:05 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Um....isn't this article talking about the competition of the games....not which game is better?
Why are half of the people here thinking that it's an attack on SC2?
It's not. It's an argument stating that the best competition in SC2 has yet to come because the current crop is, at this point, comparatively worse than those who are dominating the BW scene. This is true. This line - "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." Is not true. How can you not see the problem with this? I don't see a problem with it. It's intrigue's opinion, and I partially agree. If you read the rest of his post, he give you a very compelling reason as to why the current scene is nothing compared to its true potential. It's an opinion that does not need to be said, and especially on the front page of a SC2-focused website. 1. It is an opinion that deserves to be said if it's well founded. And clearly you haven't paid enough attention to the post to really appreciate the position. 2. It's not an SC2-focused website. It's a website about Starcraft, not 1 or 2. I have asked this question 2 times already, and I'll ask it again. What is this supposed to accomplish? What positives were garnered from the editorial other than making a lot of people upset? It's about as effective as writing personal letters to pro sc2 players telling them they suck and should practice more if they ever want to be as good as SC1 pros. Does an editorial need a point? Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW
Frankly who cares?
Telling SC2 fans that they shouldn't be enjoying their games because BW is better isn't going to do anything other then further divide on this site. No amount of telling us how much better BW is then SC2 is going to lower our enjoyment of it.
On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments....which is fine I guess....there's all the more outrage over a different opinion that's merely trying to express a point with hard facts and evidence.
It wasn't a baseless claim. It was argued.
How have we been spoiled by hype and tournaments? What does that even mean?
Should we stop having so much fun?
We don't care and have never cared about the BW scene so repeatedly trying to talk down to us about how much better your scene was is about as productive as somebody who likes apples trying to tell a crowd of people as a convention about oranges that their tastes are flawed. It's completely subjective and does nothing but foster ill-will.
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On May 13 2011 13:21 Carlin wrote:
Just re-read the article and I'm now utterly baffled as to why this silly piece of shit is even on the front-page. Stuff it away on one of the many unused forum sections of this site.
Aparently, because most TL users do not consider this as a piece of shit. You are minority.
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OP's argument was that the level of competition and skill seen in SC2 right now is not on the level of Brood War, and that once more A-team BW pros switch, they will dominate the scene.
Why's that getting so much flak? It's completely true. Maybe it doesn't need to be said by the OP, but there's nothing wrong with the article. It's kind of obvious if you look at MC, or Marineking, or NesTea's careers in BW.
Seriously...
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What you are forgetting to mention is that it's not so much a different game, but rather a newer game. BW has had near decades to develop into the game that it is today. Watch GSL1-3. You know what it was? 90% of the games ended on 1-base play. As the game and the builds become more optimal and more crisp, the need for the players to meet that demand will rise, thus developing both the game as an RTS and the players' ethic and skill as well. I definitely agree that even the mediocre BW players would walk over to SCII and dominate within weeks. However, that will be mainly due to their mechanics. However, say we look at SCII 10 years down the road, I don't think a BW players would be able to as easily transition from one game to another, because the sophistication of the game will have advanced to such a level where you have to put in just as much time/energy/ethic/thought into the sequel as you did the prequel.
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On May 13 2011 13:25 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:21 Carlin wrote:
Just re-read the article and I'm now utterly baffled as to why this silly piece of shit is even on the front-page. Stuff it away on one of the many unused forum sections of this site. Aparently, because most TL users do not consider this as a piece of shit. You are minority.
Read through this thread, he's not a minority.
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On May 13 2011 13:14 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:07 out4blood wrote:
Sorry, but your rhetorical efforts to defuse the obvious response, "It's a different game," fail completely.
It's a different game.
The mix of skills required are different enough from BW, that at the very tippy-top of the rankings, players who have the ideal mix for SC2 will rise to the top, even if they were not at the top of the BW rankings. As an analogy, take the sport of swimming; swimmers who gold medal at the 50 m breaststroke rarely gold medal at 400 m breaststroke, even though it is the same stroke! Yes, they are similar, but they are not the same.
We see this with the performance of world-class WC3 players. They are not tearing it up, either. Why not? Because it's a different game. Michael Phelps is to Swimming as Flash or Jaedong are to Starcraft. And BW players ARE tearing it up. 5/5 GSLs have gone to Broodwar Players. When hasn't a final gone to one of the former BW pros?
That is not compelling evidence. There are also BW players who are NOT doing as well. All it means is that the players who win at SC2 have demonstrated they have the skills required to win at SC2. It doesn't mean the skills overlap 100%. We can see that clearly they do not. Otherwise SC2 performance would mirror BW performance among players with BW experience, but it doesn't.
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On May 13 2011 13:16 StarStruck wrote:
The other guy had a weak rebuttal, so I thought I would chime in and it goes back to what I said earlier about Flash.
He's fast yes.
Has good mechanics, yes. I believe he can adapt to the new interface rather quickly.
Your last two points with regards to Game Sense and Decision-making. Trail and error. Same rules apply for when he was 9 to 16. Game sense and decision-making come with time. He's going to lose a whole lot before he starts winning shit just like his early days in Brood War. There will be an adjustment period and how long this adjustment period is any person's guess.
In SC2 there are a lot more time attacks that can wipe you out in a heart beat. I think there will be a lot of growing pains for any player that makes the switch, but eventually yeah these guys could be very good.
The thing is, Flash didn't lose a lot when he first started. He made the OSL first try, the MSL on his second and began appearing in PL only 3 months after his debut. This process takes years for many players. Flash simply has the natural talent to dominate anything he puts his mind to.
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On May 13 2011 12:06 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:57 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:50 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On May 13 2011 11:39 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:25 Sideburn wrote:
When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what? see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world. Clever approach though. On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant. 11 years of evidence says otherwise. Again; biased. In the beginning of SC and SCBW, everyone started in a level playing field. The Koreans was obviously the first to make it a "sport". Thus, the rest of the world who wanted to participate in this movement had to catch up. Can you call someone who had the opportunity to train specifically for a particular game "better" than someone who couldn't? I'm not sure how i'm being biased. I think you're being ignorant of the facts. Realize that in the beginning there were tons of foreign pro BW players (that's what Teamliquid was in the first place). They competed pretty much on a level playing field with the Koreans, but the Koreans kept getting better. Second, your argument is flawed. If someone gets a head start, they're forever unassailable as leaders? Market leaders stay the leaders forever? Please read your post before replying. It's really annoying to read the same thing over and over from you without any evidence or relevance. First, you totally evaded my point of "the rest of the world had to catch up". I meant that Koreans get to practice with other competitive players in teams and has a schedule dedicated to playing SCBW. I think the term is called a "pro". Please provide specific examples of your "tons of foreign pro BW players". Your second statement sounds like a blind follower. That supports my argument actually. Thus, SC2 pros having a "head start" in SC2 means that SCBW pros won't be able to catch up. actually, you're the one not doing the reading. Remember, my first claim is that you're ignorant of the facts. Yes, there were many foreign pros. Please take the time to peruse through this page: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players . Or http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90628. Or the countless blog entries by retired pros that I can't recall right now but have actually read. Do you know what you're doing right? You're arguing ignorantly then asking me for proof. Go look it up. There are histories recorded on this very site and TL was a big part of it from the start. The second point is clearly false. Just cuz the leader gets to practice and perpetuate their leadership doesn't necessarily equate to an unassailable leadership position. Yawn. Okay let me answer properly. 1. You think that Koreans are better than international players. How absurd and ignorant is it to say that noone would ever beat anyone at anything? 2. You think that SCBW is better than SC2. 3. You absolve yourself by hiding behind SCBW's history, which is so amusing that a person's skill is measured by. My response would be to ask you to deny these statements to whether you are biased about SCBW or not.
this is one of the stupider things i've ever seen posted on TL. not only because it's stupid, but because it deliberately avoids the argument first forwarded by YOU and goes tangentially to attack my character. i've decided you need to have a lesson in rhetoric, for the sake of your future. so let me help you:
1. me claiming that koreans have been better at bw is not the same as me declaring them to be permanently better. They are two fundamentally different arguments. One makes an observation, the other extrapolates. I am not doing the latter.
2. What the fuck. I don't know how you've made this supposition but attacking my character is not a sound argument. Also, whether I think that or not is irrelevant because my viewing/playing preferences are not indicative of the whole, and I make no such representative conclusions. I have stated several times that BW is more popular than SC2 IN KOREA. That is merely an observation of fact.
3. I'm not hiding in history you ASKED for the history.
So let's look at your arguments, from the start. First, you make a conclusion based off your ignorance of history. Then, I call out your ignorance and you ask for proof. Then, when I show you proof you attack me and say i'm hiding behind history.
Second, your idea of a perpetual "catching up" has been proven a million times over in history to be wrong. For every Apple there's myspace, for every Google there's an RCA.
Finally, you deliberately change the topic to make these ridiculous questions to me that have no salience to the topic at hand.
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On May 13 2011 13:22 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:13 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:09 l10f wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 rysecake wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 SpaceYeti wrote:On May 13 2011 11:58 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:
[quote]
Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010.
...
If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here.
Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. Why should I be interested in people who play a game I don't care about? Wow....just wow. I don't even know what to say here; this is just so sad. I might be one of those who joined TL.net with SC2 Beta, so maybe I'm not in a position to point this out, but it is really disheartening to see people with this attitude towards the game that really started it all for professional, competitive RTS. I'll be honest, I didn't learn who Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, July, NaDa, or BoxeR were until after I joined TL.net, but when I did and I read about what they accomplished and watched VODs of their games on YouTube, etc., I realized that I had been missing out on something amazing. I have yet to see anything of that caliber in SC2. This guy knows his stuff. Humble virgin to the starcraft scene who appreciates the history of starcraft in general. honestlyy I'm willing to bet most people here shutting down sc1 are just newbies fresh to the starcraft scene who have something against sc1 (be it the graphics or something else). I see more of these types of people than sc1 players who shut down sc2 (which they shouldn't because sc2 is the successor to a legendary game). There's nothing wrong with liking both games. I love both games But you love Cornell more than me and Sheep! D: And as an additional note....I would like SC2.... If only my computer didn't freeze when a single templar caused my computer to crash. On May 13 2011 13:09 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:05 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Um....isn't this article talking about the competition of the games....not which game is better?
Why are half of the people here thinking that it's an attack on SC2?
It's not. It's an argument stating that the best competition in SC2 has yet to come because the current crop is, at this point, comparatively worse than those who are dominating the BW scene. This is true. This line - "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." Is not true. How can you not see the problem with this? I don't see a problem with it. It's intrigue's opinion, and I partially agree. If you read the rest of his post, he give you a very compelling reason as to why the current scene is nothing compared to its true potential. It's an opinion that does not need to be said, and especially on the front page of a SC2-focused website. 1. It is an opinion that deserves to be said if it's well founded. And clearly you haven't paid enough attention to the post to really appreciate the position. 2. It's not an SC2-focused website. It's a website about Starcraft, not 1 or 2. I have asked this question 2 times already, and I'll ask it again. What is this supposed to accomplish? What positives were garnered from the editorial other than making a lot of people upset? It's about as effective as writing personal letters to pro sc2 players telling them they suck and should practice more if they ever want to be as good as SC1 pros. Does an editorial need a point? Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW, and those arguments should be heard and considered before people say: "What you doing brrrooo?" And since when were editorials supposed to be positive? Are we supposed to be constantly praising something that some people don't believe deserve praise? Of course not. There's two sides to every argument, and in this case, there's someone who's trying to point out something flawed in the status quo... That's why there's "letters to the editor"...because there ARE people dissatisfied, and they have a RIGHT to voice said dissatisfcation. And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments....which is fine I guess....there's all the more outrage over a different opinion that's merely trying to express a point with hard facts and evidence. It wasn't a baseless claim. It was argued. Does an editorial need a point? - Yes, otherwise how is it different from a blog? Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW, and those arguments should be heard and considered before people say: "What you doing brrrooo?" - And not a single solution was discussed in the OP. Nor has any been discussed in the 50~ pages I have read of this thread. As I have said, I have been reading it a lot and nothing positive as come from it.
And since when were editorials supposed to be positive? Are we supposed to be constantly praising something that some people don't believe deserve praise? Of course not. There's two sides to every argument, and in this case, there's someone who's trying to point out something flawed in the status quo... - I saw no discussions about the cons of brood war. You know, the concentration-camp like practice regimes and stuff? There was only one side discussed, and it was the one bashing SC2 as a competitive game because the players are not competitive enough according to the OP. And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments - The only people who seem to be upset with SC2 and it's development are brood war fans.
First of all....here's the definition of an editorial, since certain people don't understand standard journalism: A newspaper article written by or on behalf of an editor that gives an opinion on a topical issue.
So here's what this article did: it provided an opinion on the unappealing quality of current SC2 game standards. That's the opinion. Was it backed up yes?
Also, there's no need for a solution. And if anyone knows how to read, and by read, I mean drawing conclusions like you learned in school, then you would know that there was the implication was that more players will soon be joining the SC2 scene from the BW scene, and that should spice things up.
And of course there has been something positive: the fact that people discuss is enough. It might incite rants and anger, but public discourse is ten times better than avoiding certain opinions that have fair ground to them.
And since when did an editorial that supported BW need to point out cons of BW? It's like shooting yourself in the foot by saying "Well Obama is nice and all, but at the same time he sort of can't do anything good for the country".
Like I said: this isn't a site dedicated to the development of SC2. If SC2 is the big thing, then TL will accommodate the change, but don't go around thinking that SC2 is somehow supposed to be the holy lord that is not to be criticized.
There are so many questions and issues that people have, and I'm glad that people are speaking out.
On May 13 2011 13:24 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:13 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:11 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:09 l10f wrote:On May 13 2011 13:a07 rysecake wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 SpaceYeti wrote:On May 13 2011 11:58 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:
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Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010.
...
If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here.
Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. Why should I be interested in people who play a game I don't care about? Wow....just wow. I don't even know what to say here; this is just so sad. I might be one of those who joined TL.net with SC2 Beta, so maybe I'm not in a position to point this out, but it is really disheartening to see people with this attitude towards the game that really started it all for professional, competitive RTS. I'll be honest, I didn't learn who Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, July, NaDa, or BoxeR were until after I joined TL.net, but when I did and I read about what they accomplished and watched VODs of their games on YouTube, etc., I realized that I had been missing out on something amazing. I have yet to see anything of that caliber in SC2. This guy knows his stuff. Humble virgin to the starcraft scene who appreciates the history of starcraft in general. honestlyy I'm willing to bet most people here shutting down sc1 are just newbies fresh to the starcraft scene who have something against sc1 (be it the graphics or something else). I see more of these types of people than sc1 players who shut down sc2 (which they shouldn't because sc2 is the successor to a legendary game). There's nothing wrong with liking both games. I love both games But you love Cornell more than me and Sheep! D: And as an additional note....I would like SC2.... If only my computer didn't freeze when a single templar caused my computer to crash. On May 13 2011 13:09 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 13 2011 13:05 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 13:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Um....isn't this article talking about the competition of the games....not which game is better?
Why are half of the people here thinking that it's an attack on SC2?
It's not. It's an argument stating that the best competition in SC2 has yet to come because the current crop is, at this point, comparatively worse than those who are dominating the BW scene. This is true. This line - "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." Is not true. How can you not see the problem with this? I don't see a problem with it. It's intrigue's opinion, and I partially agree. If you read the rest of his post, he give you a very compelling reason as to why the current scene is nothing compared to its true potential. It's an opinion that does not need to be said, and especially on the front page of a SC2-focused website. 1. It is an opinion that deserves to be said if it's well founded. And clearly you haven't paid enough attention to the post to really appreciate the position. 2. It's not an SC2-focused website. It's a website about Starcraft, not 1 or 2. I have asked this question 2 times already, and I'll ask it again. What is this supposed to accomplish? What positives were garnered from the editorial other than making a lot of people upset? It's about as effective as writing personal letters to pro sc2 players telling them they suck and should practice more if they ever want to be as good as SC1 pros. Does an editorial need a point? Really, the only thing it needs to do is to spur on dialogue and discussion. I believe there's genuine arguments that point out that SC2's competition is lackluster compared to BW Frankly who cares? Telling SC2 fans that they shouldn't be enjoying their games because BW is better isn't going to do anything other then further divide on this site. No amount of telling us how much better BW is then SC2 is going to lower our enjoyment of it. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
And because people have honestly been spoiled by all the hype of SC2 and the tournaments....which is fine I guess....there's all the more outrage over a different opinion that's merely trying to express a point with hard facts and evidence.
It wasn't a baseless claim. It was argued.
How have we been spoiled by hype and tournaments? What does that even mean? Should we stop having so much fun? We don't care and have never cared about the BW scene so repeatedly trying to talk down to us about how much better your scene was is about as productive as somebody who likes apples trying to tell a crowd of people as a convention about oranges that their tastes are flawed. It's completely subjective and does nothing but foster ill-will.
I almost don't want to respond to this because of the insane amount of ignorance and lack of attention to what was actually written in the OP, but here we go...
1st. You completely misunderstand what I mean by "spoiled". I mean that this community has basically had dozens of articles written about so many positive changes to SC2. And when one article rolls around that minutely begins to criticize it, the fanbase goes ballistic on it. That's what I mean by spoiled.
So in other words: grow a pair and listen to the other side, because there are decent tellings.
2nd. You also completely misunderstand what the OP is saying. The OP is saying that once BW pros (and by pros he means the better players) switch, then it'll dominate this scene that is basically complacent with players from BW that weren't as good.
There is nothing wrong with that statement, and it's been demonstrated through facts and statistics to be a legitimate argument.
Once again, this isn't a place to automatically spout BW hate and SC2 hate because someone decided to run comparison tests.
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On May 13 2011 13:26 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:25 hydraden wrote:On May 13 2011 13:21 Carlin wrote:
Just re-read the article and I'm now utterly baffled as to why this silly piece of shit is even on the front-page. Stuff it away on one of the many unused forum sections of this site. Aparently, because most TL users do not consider this as a piece of shit. You are minority. Read through this thread, he's not a minority.
Even if only 20% of users think the article is good, then it still does not justify his statement of "piece of shit".
Any article with tons of reliable data should not be considered as "piece of shit", even if it does not have any conclusion.
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On May 13 2011 13:25 Enyalus wrote:
OP's argument was that the level of competition and skill seen in SC2 right now is not on the level of Brood War, and that once more A-team BW pros switch, they will dominate the scene.
Why's that getting so much flak? It's completely true. Maybe it doesn't need to be said by the OP, but there's nothing wrong with the article. It's kind of obvious if you look at MC, or Marineking, or NesTea's careers in BW.
Seriously...
Oh he could have stated that without trying to make a lot of SC2 fans feel stupid, which was clearly another motive of the article.
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On May 13 2011 13:25 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 13:21 Carlin wrote:
Just re-read the article and I'm now utterly baffled as to why this silly piece of shit is even on the front-page. Stuff it away on one of the many unused forum sections of this site. Aparently, because most TL users do not consider this as a piece of shit. You are minority.
Aah.. I find this post to be constructed in a way that a conspiracy theory is; It tells you very clearly what to believe, and what they want you to believe is backed up by some shabby out of context quotes and somewhat lackluster statistics.
I think this article was made just to say out loud once more that no one will ever get close to JD or Flash, and thus, I find this editorial to be a disgrace as it's a badly written piece of garbage that's put on the front page of one of the biggest e-sport sites in the world.
The way the article is constructed itt's just immensly hard to counter-argue simply because of the fact that OP is hiding behind the top tier BW player's track record and proven deadly skill. Saying that they would tear up the Star2 scene should they switch is just as productive as stating that "Fuck no, they wouldn't". It's like two people trying to kill each other with toy guns. You have to get the real deal to actually see the result. Counter-productive shit like this should _NOT_ be on the front page, and I think Hot_bid makes himself look simple minded and foolish in his quote.
And the comments concerning the article is just a flame war, and a fanboy battle where simple arguements with little other than imagination and biased opionins are used as fuel. Idiots fighting idiots because of an idiot.
TL;DR HeatoN would fucking rape Flash in Starcraft 4 even if HeatoN lost one arm and went blind
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