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On May 13 2011 12:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:33 Fraidnot wrote:On May 13 2011 12:18 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Fraidnot wrote:On May 13 2011 12:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:03 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 12:02 1Eris1 wrote:On May 13 2011 11:59 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 11:55 Belial88 wrote:I'm (still) really surprised and embarrassed to be an SC2 fan considering the flaming and hate the OP is getting. Only, that's not really the case, more-so in the foreign scene but even in the Korean scene, the BW players only obviously had a head start because of the similarities of the game early on, now if you look at it, you have former BW pros doing well, former BW pros doing poorly, non-BW players doing well, non-BW players doing poorly, and everything in between. The current top players in SC2 aren't all players from BW, and it's still the first year or so. No, every top player in BW is amongst the *very top* of SC2 right now. July, Nada, Boxer, Rainbow, as the OP describes if you actually read his post, were old news when SC2 came out and had horrible records as of recently. MVP, Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, were the best BW players when SC2 was released that now play SC2. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. I think it's because the layout of it was very similar to the "BW is a better game than SC2" thread. Honestly though, MC makes alot more money than Flash does, so I don't really see why money alone would keep the top players to BW. If they really think they can smash everyone at SC2, they could probably make more money at it. Err flash makes at least 200k a year on salary alone. that doesn't include tournament winnings/other sponsherships etc. MC has only made around 150k this year. And I have a slight problem with the OP. It says former bonjwa iloveovv. FORMER BONJWA? I WAS NOT AWARE HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE BONJWA LIST. bastards. But no, actually I agree with the overall thread. I really want to see someone like Paralyze switch MC has made about 164k in 4 months. the amount of money he makes is not even stable.If he slumps now how won't make any money because all his money is from tournment winnings,oGs's sponsors does not pay its players any salaries. If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. I never said that he wouldn't make as much money,of course he would,he would dominate the shit out of everyone :p. There is some bias in the post,but it is backed up with facts. Facts? Facts!? Conjecture and correlated statistics are not facts! who said I'm using the stats that Intrigue used.I'm basing my facts on actually watching his play and his actual track record.
So your 'facts' are based on even less quantitative material? Wow, just wow. What are these 'facts' anyways?
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On May 13 2011 11:47 Murderotica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant] I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because: 1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it. 2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3: 3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it. In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children.
Thanks. It is always nice to be have a legible and thought out response to a post.
I personally think that the single site/section format encourages interaction between BW vets and SC2 noobies. This is a good thing. The best thing for any SC competition is for more people to be exposed to it. The fact that BW vets are so passionate is an amazing advertisment for BW. The number of new members is an incredible opportunity for BW to grow.
Passion is a good thing when it is funnelled towards creating something positive. Both sections of this community need to realise that there is something to be gained from the other.
Peace out!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:43 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:33 Fraidnot wrote:On May 13 2011 12:18 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Fraidnot wrote:On May 13 2011 12:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:03 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 12:02 1Eris1 wrote:On May 13 2011 11:59 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 11:55 Belial88 wrote:
I'm (still) really surprised and embarrassed to be an SC2 fan considering the flaming and hate the OP is getting.
[quote]
No, every top player in BW is amongst the *very top* of SC2 right now. July, Nada, Boxer, Rainbow, as the OP describes if you actually read his post, were old news when SC2 came out and had horrible records as of recently. MVP, Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, were the best BW players when SC2 was released that now play SC2.
I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. I think it's because the layout of it was very similar to the "BW is a better game than SC2" thread. Honestly though, MC makes alot more money than Flash does, so I don't really see why money alone would keep the top players to BW. If they really think they can smash everyone at SC2, they could probably make more money at it. Err flash makes at least 200k a year on salary alone. that doesn't include tournament winnings/other sponsherships etc. MC has only made around 150k this year. And I have a slight problem with the OP. It says former bonjwa iloveovv. FORMER BONJWA? I WAS NOT AWARE HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE BONJWA LIST. bastards. But no, actually I agree with the overall thread. I really want to see someone like Paralyze switch MC has made about 164k in 4 months. the amount of money he makes is not even stable.If he slumps now how won't make any money because all his money is from tournment winnings,oGs's sponsors does not pay its players any salaries. If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. I never said that he wouldn't make as much money,of course he would,he would dominate the shit out of everyone :p. There is some bias in the post,but it is backed up with facts. Facts? Facts!? Conjecture and correlated statistics are not facts! who said I'm using the stats that Intrigue used.I'm basing my facts on actually watching his play and his actual track record. So your 'facts' are based on even less quantitative material? Wow, just wow. What are these 'facts' anyways?
Just watch him play.:p
I did explain why he would dominate in an earlier post I made. just a sec.
of course I can always count on moopie to pull out some real facts.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:
trolololol
anyways this is why I thinkknow TBLS will dominate SC2 if the switch over since so many of you are convinced that because some former BW players are not dominating none of them can.
what do you need to be top of the top in BW.
1)Mechanics
2)Game Sense
3)Decision Making
2 and 3 combined makes strategy.
now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making.
What do you need in SC2?
well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels).
you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate.
What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge.
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On May 13 2011 12:24 StarStruck wrote:
Like I said earlier, I thought he would start dominating a lot sooner rather than later, but it wasn't until 2010 that he went on his tear. He would always show signs in 2008 and 2009 of breaking out, but meh. It never happened.
I don't think that's fair. Flash won Bacchus 2008 1 year after he turned pro. Additionally, while he didn't pick up his second title until early 2010 (or late 2009, depends on how you look at it), he tore up proleague and carried KTF regularly. Ever since his transfer to KTF Flash never had a "bad year", he just had a string of bad luck in the individual leagues, much like Bisu has been having for the past few years.
Flash's SPL records:
07-08 SPL - 34-19 (64%)
08-09 SPL - 55-22 (71%)
09-10 SPL - 61-16 (79%)
10-11 SPL - 49-11 (82%), still in progress.
I would say that Flash's talent was clearly visible from his first year.
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It's sad that BW fans attempt to cling to a dying/dead game so desperately  . It seems most of them will do whatever it takes to try to tear SC2 down.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:47 Cross. wrote:It's sad that BW fans attempt to cling to a dying/dead game so desperately . It seems most of them will do whatever it takes to try to tear SC2 down.
BW is not dying,it is infact very much alive even though it is only in korea,but thats where it matters the most.no one's trying to tear SC2 down,don't worry.
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On May 13 2011 12:37 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:29 setzer wrote:On May 13 2011 12:21 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 12:14 Fraidnot wrote:On May 13 2011 12:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 12:03 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 12:02 1Eris1 wrote:On May 13 2011 11:59 Euronyme wrote:On May 13 2011 11:55 Belial88 wrote:I'm (still) really surprised and embarrassed to be an SC2 fan considering the flaming and hate the OP is getting. Only, that's not really the case, more-so in the foreign scene but even in the Korean scene, the BW players only obviously had a head start because of the similarities of the game early on, now if you look at it, you have former BW pros doing well, former BW pros doing poorly, non-BW players doing well, non-BW players doing poorly, and everything in between. The current top players in SC2 aren't all players from BW, and it's still the first year or so. No, every top player in BW is amongst the *very top* of SC2 right now. July, Nada, Boxer, Rainbow, as the OP describes if you actually read his post, were old news when SC2 came out and had horrible records as of recently. MVP, Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, were the best BW players when SC2 was released that now play SC2. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. I think it's because the layout of it was very similar to the "BW is a better game than SC2" thread. Honestly though, MC makes alot more money than Flash does, so I don't really see why money alone would keep the top players to BW. If they really think they can smash everyone at SC2, they could probably make more money at it. Err flash makes at least 200k a year on salary alone. that doesn't include tournament winnings/other sponsherships etc. MC has only made around 150k this year. And I have a slight problem with the OP. It says former bonjwa iloveovv. FORMER BONJWA? I WAS NOT AWARE HE WAS REMOVED FROM THE BONJWA LIST. bastards. But no, actually I agree with the overall thread. I really want to see someone like Paralyze switch MC has made about 164k in 4 months. the amount of money he makes is not even stable.If he slumps now how won't make any money because all his money is from tournment winnings,oGs's sponsors does not pay its players any salaries. If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. I already said it, but it doesn't seem to stick. People are just saying winning tournaments is like finding money on the ground, and that if he slumps he wouldn't earn anything. Well if you read the op and have the same glorified view of Flash, he doesn't lose games. He's a god and will win everything, because currently everyone who plays SC2 sucks. If that indeed was the case, and the OP's point of that everyone plays for money, then he would be much better of playing SC2, because winning every big tournament in SC2 earns you alot more than he currently does, whether he wins or not. It is possible that he is a professional gamer for more reasons than just the money involved. The mental acuity needed to play BW at his level, the extreme competition, national pride, prestige, fans and friends are all valid reasons why most of the current BW players continue playing. SC2 is just not popular in Korea and it reaches a cultural level like Broodwar I don't see the talent in Korea going to SC2. Another major thing that is missing from SC2 is an actual team league, and could also be a reason some choose to stick with BW. I'm just puncturing the OP. "Money is the same reason S-class and even A-class Brood War pros don't switch" My entire point is that the whole OP is revolving around that there's not enough money in the SC2 scene for a top player to switch, while there's actually tonnes more money in the SC2 scene for a 100% winner, which any top BW player's assumed to be, which I also don't agree with. We'll see what happens, but I think foreigners will keep up regardless of who switches. The skill sets required for the two games are really different, and the game mechanics are also different. There are several team leagues, most notably the GSTL.
Players like guaranteed salaries. Players like Flash and Jaedong will command big salaries. I don't think we're too far away from something like that happening.
The team leagues SC2 has is almost nothing compared to that of the BW Pro League. The GSTL format is a joke and the tournament is over as soon as you know it. EG Masters Cup is a step in the right direction, but in all seriousness you cannot compare SC2 team leagues to Pro League. No comparison.
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On May 13 2011 12:46 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:24 StarStruck wrote:
Like I said earlier, I thought he would start dominating a lot sooner rather than later, but it wasn't until 2010 that he went on his tear. He would always show signs in 2008 and 2009 of breaking out, but meh. It never happened. I don't think that's fair. Flash won Bacchus 2008 1 year after he turned pro. Additionally, while he didn't pick up his second title until early 2010 (or late 2009, depends on how you look at it), he tore up proleague and carried KTF regularly. Ever since his transfer to KTF Flash never had a "bad year", he just had a string of bad luck in the individual leagues, much like Bisu has been having for the past few years. Flash's SPL records: 07-08 SPL - 34-19 (64%) 08-09 SPL - 55-22 (71%) 09-10 SPL - 61-16 (79%) 10-11 SPL - 49-11 (82%), still in progress. I would say that Flash's talent was clearly visible from his first year.
Yes, but then the bonjwa conversation would pop-up and you know how that went moopie.
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On May 13 2011 12:47 Cross. wrote:It's sad that BW fans attempt to cling to a dying/dead game so desperately . It seems most of them will do whatever it takes to try to tear SC2 down.
No one is tearing down anything. What's sad is the naivety and pretentiousness of this new sc2 generation. I enjoy both games. No reason to hate either.
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On May 13 2011 12:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:47 Cross. wrote:It's sad that BW fans attempt to cling to a dying/dead game so desperately . It seems most of them will do whatever it takes to try to tear SC2 down. BW is not dying,it is infact very much alive even though it is only in korea,but thats where it matters the most.
It only matters most there because it's only big there. Chicken and egg.
This thread sure has the initial suspicion and appearance of "BW is better," but it's at least an informative read which theorizes, no not demonstrates, that BW pros could come to SC2 and dominate. There is evidence, sure, but I think I already knew that hard work=results.
There's no reason to assume that just because BW pros can come to SC2 and dominate, that the rest of the world can't catch up. There simply has to be the motivation, and yes, generally, dedicating your life to a game is taboo, and for whatever reason, it's slightly more socially acceptable in South Korea than other places. Or do people still think they are genetically superior? I'd argue that social values such as hard work yada yada lead to success, but again, there's nothing stopping anyone from putting in the hard work. It's just less of a decision if you've been trained to work hard from young age.
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On May 13 2011 12:53 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:47 Cross. wrote:It's sad that BW fans attempt to cling to a dying/dead game so desperately . It seems most of them will do whatever it takes to try to tear SC2 down. No one is tearing down anything. What's sad is the naivety and pretentiousness of this new sc2 generation. I enjoy both games. No reason to hate either.
I certainly fall into that category as well. It just seems that articles/posts like this serve only to hurt the growth of SC2, and Esport in general.
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Yeah the SC2 players can't hold a torch to the BW players, but that's obvious...although maybe some people needed a little reminder.
However: that doesn't mean we still can't enjoy SC2 (granted, I still think BW is a better game).
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Excuse the following ignorant question about SC2 because I honestly don't know the answer. My guess is the answer is "not really"
Do SC2 pros play on conventional pro teams? Do they practice every day for long hours with their teammates? Live with them?
The competition in BW has been absolutely cutthroat for 8+ years for a number of reasons, but one *requirement* to such competition is the infrastructure of a pro league. Yes, this takes money. It takes a lot of things. BW might not be the Korean equivalent of the NBA or NFL, but it's a still a big, highly developed organization. SC2 might turn into that, but BW got lucky by riding the wave of a big technology boom.
This is regardless of which is the better game.
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I just don't like these comparison threads between SC:BW and SC2, because the thread's either a SC2 guy with 12 posts asking why "anyone even plays BW, it's got so shitty graphics", or some 50k veteran who goes all out dick mode with a 12 page OP about what exactly he thinks is bad with SC2 in comparison to BW, why SC2 requires no skill, why every new SC2 unit is a betrayal to the predecessor, and why every BW player would rape any SC2 player without any facts to back anything up.
Neither thread has the possibility to bring up any interesting discussion whatsoever.
The only thing that is accomplished is that both sides think the other side's an ignorant dick.
I'd like to see a joint Team Liquid, which thinks of starcraft as one game, but these kinds of threads are just tearing that up every time.
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It's not that they are genetically superior; the fact they come from families that work hard (anyone can); or, it's socially more acceptable (there are several interviews with pro players that said their parents were against it, but eventually embraced it). It was a cultural phenomena. Brood War was released in Korea right as the country was getting their internet infrastructure up. It was all about getting together with your friends and heading down to the PC Bang.
More knowledge bombs.
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Um....isn't this article talking about the competition of the games....not which game is better?
Why are half of the people here thinking that it's an attack on SC2?
It's not. It's an argument stating that the best competition in SC2 has yet to come because the current crop is, at this point, comparatively worse than those who are dominating the BW scene.
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On May 13 2011 11:58 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. Why should I be interested in people who play a game I don't care about?
Wow....just wow. I don't even know what to say here; this is just so sad.
I might be one of those who joined TL.net with SC2 Beta, so maybe I'm not in a position to point this out, but it is really disheartening to see people with this attitude towards the game that really started it all for professional, competitive RTS.
I'll be honest, I didn't learn who Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, July, NaDa, or BoxeR were until after I joined TL.net, but when I did and I read about what they accomplished and watched VODs of their games on YouTube, etc., I realized that I had been missing out on something amazing. I have yet to see anything of that caliber in SC2.
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On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people.
lol .. look up my account on GG.net .. I've followed Starcraft when Savior was defeated by up and coming Bisu.
How is it exaggerated? Seems pretty accurate to me. SC2 was over hyped even before beta began. I mean, I too was looking forward in playing the game. But when they removed all the good things about BW. That was it for me. With The Clueless Browder running behind the scene, SC2 is bound to be just another RTS. The proscene you are now witnessing in SC2 is because of BW's glorious scene.
Also, you have to take note that the Top gamers themselves stated that they are playing this game for fun, unlike how Boxer or any other legend grind their way to the top. Dedication means everything in the game. If the lead players take stop taking game for granted, you might see SC2 glorious aswell.
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On May 13 2011 13:00 LxRogue wrote:
Excuse the following ignorant question about SC2 because I honestly don't know the answer. My guess is the answer is "not really"
Do SC2 pros play on conventional pro teams? Do they practice every day for long hours with their teammates? Live with them?
The competition in BW has been absolutely cutthroat for 8+ years for a number of reasons, but one *requirement* to such competition is the infrastructure of a pro league. Yes, this takes money. It takes a lot of things. BW might not be the Korean equivalent of the NBA or NFL, but it's a still a big, highly developed organization. SC2 might turn into that, but BW got lucky by riding the wave of a big technology boom.
This is regardless of which is the better game.
Yes every Korean team has a pro house in similar style of the BW ones, however they seem to have a looser practise schedule in some teams.
There are also a couple of foreigner cross team houses forming in Europe and in the US.
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On May 13 2011 12:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 12:34 BenKen wrote:On May 13 2011 12:11 Bandino wrote:
In all honesty I read the entire article twice and I'm still left with this question, why did the author write it? There seems to be no good legitimate reason to write this than to piss people off, which I truly hope wasn't his intention. His thesis is poor at best, and his conclusion is..... I'll tell you when i find it. I understand maybe the Mods wanted to generate discussion, but this was probably a very poor way of going at it. Instead of proving whatever point it was trying to prove, it only served to widen the divide between SC2 and BW, and not only that but harm the image of TL (see Reddit and even Artosis's twitter). I for one am slightly disappointed by TL and the article. Honestly, the article is fine for the Blogs section. I wouldn't even mind it being highlighted. But to put it front and center on the main page reeks of shameless page-view whoring. The article adds nothing to the discussion that we didn't already know. All it does is needlessly call out SC2 players for not being as good as BW players, even though we all know that and accept that. I do not think TL has made the jump from tight-knit community website to page-view-whoring commercial site. Far from it. Posting articles that say nothing and do nothing but cause pages upon pages of circular arguments (and yes, i know I am falling for it by posting this) is very disappointing though. First time I've ever seen a main page article on TL and thought "man, I'm kinda disappointed they would do something like that" and I've been lurking around here around three years now. i personally wouldnt have thought this would be released as a news article at all, considering the vested interest tl has in sc2 with the teams and sponsors and money. im not sure i agree with the actual words said, but i do agree with some of his points. maybe if intrigue had said something like 'sc2 competition is still yet to achieve it's potential?' im assuming you are a sc2 fan, and i can understand that you feel disappointed (even though its intrigue posting and not tl.) but im a bw fan, and teamliquid has done things that make me disappointed too (not intrigue or anyone singularly, but the site)
Well, ok i can see where you are coming from. Actually though I'm not disappointed in Intrigue, I'm disappointed in TL for posting this as a news article. And yeah, fwiw I'm an SC2 fan, but I've been around TL long enough to remember getting way too excited when Savior told us he would destroy everyone, so I have a pretty decent idea of how good BW players are.
The thing to me is he didn't say "sc2 competition is still yet to achieve it's potential", he called sc2 a farce and basically told us our heroes are weaklings and not really worth watching. Why is that necessary? what makes that news worthy? I'ts just inflammatory for no reason, and it's only a news article because they know it will piss off SC2 fans enough to make them want to post, but not piss them off so much that they will stop coming here (which kinda makes me feel silly for posting this lol).
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EPT
