EPTOn May 13 2011 11:52 Hinanawi wrote:
He read the Liquipedia page guys, the jig is up!
He read the Liquipedia page guys, the jig is up!
Liquipedia is the real deal lol
The Elephant in the Room - Page 136
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
Liquipedia is the real deal lol | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: the amount of money he makes is not even stable.If he slumps now how won't make any money because all his money is from tournment winnings,oGs's sponsors does not pay its players any salaries. If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:14 Fraidnot wrote: If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. I never said that he wouldn't make as much money,of course he would,he would dominate the shit out of everyone :p. There is some bias in the post,but it is backed up with facts. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:14 Fraidnot wrote: If the OP was right(which he isn't) Flash would just be playing against a bunch of skill less noobs who he would dominate. Flash would easily win every tournament without trying and would make even more money than MC. You can't say that Flash would dominate, but wouldn't make as much money. I already said it, but it doesn't seem to stick. People are just saying winning tournaments is like finding money on the ground, and that if he slumps he wouldn't earn anything. Well if you read the op and have the same glorified view of Flash, he doesn't lose games. He's a god and will win everything, because currently everyone who plays SC2 sucks. If that indeed was the case, and the OP's point of that everyone plays for money, then he would be much better of playing SC2, because winning every big tournament in SC2 earns you alot more than he currently does, whether he wins or not. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On May 13 2011 11:47 stratmatt wrote: people here act like this flash guy was born a sc pro. i just read his liquipedia page, dude didnt even come around until like 2007 and it took him a couple years to get to where he is now. thanks but no thanks, bw is outdated and and not very entertaining to watch, ill stick with sc2. That shows you how hard it is to actually make it in Brood War. I remember watching him as an amateur. I knew someone would pick him up and always thought he could win a major, but I had no idea he would get as many as he did. Why? Hard fucking work. The Flash bandwagon nowadays has made me somewhat of an anti-fan. That and Flash single-handedly ruined my Liquibet on more than one occasion. I thought he would breakout a lot sooner. Reminds me of the time I thought Lomo could be the next big Terran (that didn't go so well either). Fucking Terrans. Flash story: This kid got scouted when he was 14. One of the youngest players to ever be picked up and this led the charge to drafting kids who were anywhere from 12 (see BaBy)-14. The kid had a lot to learn though. He had two assets: very fast hands and he was very coach-able. Everything a coach would want hence P&C picked him up. Like I said earlier, I thought he would start dominating a lot sooner rather than later, but it wasn't until 2010 that he went on his tear. He would always show signs in 2008 and 2009 of breaking out, but meh. It never happened. There was too much competition with Savior, Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, etc. The guy wasn't born a pro. He was the youngest player to be selected up to that point though and it was based on his skill sets. The very same skill sets that got July where he is today. You don't find BW entertaining to watch. That's great. I personally love the Korean commentators. If you understood what they were saying and actually knew what was going on you might say otherwise. | ||
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dredd276
United States80 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:24 dredd276 wrote: The arguments in this thread have thus far been a farce. Thanks for your own great contribution to the thread, good sir. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:26 Euronyme wrote: Thanks for your own great contribution to the thread, good sir. Nothing positive has come from this thread and nothing will. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:21 Euronyme wrote: I already said it, but it doesn't seem to stick. People are just saying winning tournaments is like finding money on the ground, and that if he slumps he wouldn't earn anything. Well if you read the op and have the same glorified view of Flash, he doesn't lose games. He's a god and will win everything, because currently everyone who plays SC2 sucks. If that indeed was the case, and the OP's point of that everyone plays for money, then he would be much better of playing SC2, because winning every big tournament in SC2 earns you alot more than he currently does, whether he wins or not. It is possible that he is a professional gamer for more reasons than just the money involved. The mental acuity needed to play BW at his level, the extreme competition, national pride, prestige, fans and friends are all valid reasons why most of the current BW players continue playing. SC2 is just not popular in Korea and it reaches a cultural level like Broodwar I don't see the talent in Korea going to SC2. Another major thing that is missing from SC2 is an actual team league, and could also be a reason some choose to stick with BW. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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nugget-92
Australia83 Posts
On May 13 2011 11:55 Belial88 wrote: I'm (still) really surprised and embarrassed to be an SC2 fan considering the flaming and hate the OP is getting. No, every top player in BW is amongst the *very top* of SC2 right now. July, Nada, Boxer, Rainbow, as the OP describes if you actually read his post, were old news when SC2 came out and had horrible records as of recently. MVP, Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, were the best BW players when SC2 was released that now play SC2. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. Excuse me but if you actually read the article you would notice that the very premise of this section of the article: Their records (source TLPD) from their Brood War days: FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008 NesTea - 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 - May 2009 MC - 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 - May 2010 These guys weren’t average. They weren’t almost average. They were bad. Was to point out that Fruitdealer, Nestea and MC were bad BW players and that there were very few good BW player to change over. However, the article does point out some players that were good at the time of the switch. Nada NaDa was the only one of the three to still somewhat regularly participate in Proleague. RainBOw Only two ex-BW pros have the distinction of being above average in their past careers: RainBOw, and MvP Although MvP is listed as having a 39% win rate when it is convenient to intrigue to say all BW converts were terrible when he had a 29-21 win rate after 2010 and a 1-26 win rate before 2010. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. | ||
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Fraidnot
United States824 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:18 BLinD-RawR wrote: I never said that he wouldn't make as much money,of course he would,he would dominate the shit out of everyone :p. There is some bias in the post,but it is backed up with facts. Facts? Facts!? Conjecture and correlated statistics are not facts! | ||
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jazzbassmatt
United States566 Posts
On May 13 2011 11:18 MeedleyMee wrote: What difference does this make? Who cares? This seems to me the posting of a disgruntled elitist. You might as well be arguing the case of orange juice over apple juice because apple juice just doesn't have as much vitamin C. You claim that SC2 competition is a farce, an insult to all SC2 players who watch, compete in, or just plain enjoy the game. All of the things you list to discredit SC2 are hollow and without any foundation, in other words, your argument is a completely hypothetical one. And even if it were true, what difference does the fact that if Jaedong switched over to SC2 he would dominate make? Isn't that the point of a tournament? You word your argument like these facts are supporting evidence that SC2 comptetion is a farce but there's no bridge of logic here, other than "SC2 isn't as big as BW, therefore it sucks." Did you expect an instant migration? Using your football analogy, what happens if there's a new football game that comes out? Not one with all the complicated penalties that keep your everyday football layman from understanding the game, but a simplified version. As a NEW fan looking at both, which would you want to jump into and follow? The future of Starcraft is SC2. You're insulting the people wise enough or lucky enough to jump on the boat when it first sets sail. It's not a big, expensive boat, but you know what, it's got better graphics and is easier to understand. Wait, I think I lost my analogy there, but you get the idea. I had faith in TL, but it's being shattered now. I have no idea why something so ridiculous would be allowed to be placed on the main page. I loved the community because you were so accepting, but my infrequent visits seem to be justified by this post of somebody pointing and laughing at the kid brother of Starcraft because he's in the shadow of BW. There's no point to your post other than a long-winded BW IS BETTAR. Yes, I realize the hypocrisy, having posted a long-winded comment, but my intentions are to defend SC's kid brother while you mock it for what it isn't, when so many of us love it for what it is. I agree. Just because a game is "new" doesn't mean it doesn't have potential at a high-level. The fact that SC2 still has a lot of room to develop is a GOOD thing, not this "dark secret" we're all afraid to talk about. | ||
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BenKen
United States860 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:11 Bandino wrote: In all honesty I read the entire article twice and I'm still left with this question, why did the author write it? There seems to be no good legitimate reason to write this than to piss people off, which I truly hope wasn't his intention. His thesis is poor at best, and his conclusion is..... I'll tell you when i find it. I understand maybe the Mods wanted to generate discussion, but this was probably a very poor way of going at it. Instead of proving whatever point it was trying to prove, it only served to widen the divide between SC2 and BW, and not only that but harm the image of TL (see Reddit and even Artosis's twitter). I for one am slightly disappointed by TL and the article. Honestly, the article is fine for the Blogs section. I wouldn't even mind it being highlighted. But to put it front and center on the main page reeks of shameless page-view whoring. The article adds nothing to the discussion that we didn't already know. All it does is needlessly call out SC2 players for not being as good as BW players, even though we all know that and accept that. I do not think TL has made the jump from tight-knit community website to page-view-whoring commercial site. Far from it. Posting articles that say nothing and do nothing but cause pages upon pages of circular arguments (and yes, i know I am falling for it by posting this) is very disappointing though. First time I've ever seen a main page article on TL and thought "man, I'm kinda disappointed they would do something like that" and I've been lurking around here around three years now. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:33 Fraidnot wrote: Facts? Facts!? Conjecture and correlated statistics are not facts! who said I'm using the stats that Intrigue used.I'm basing my facts on actually watching his play and his actual track record. | ||
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xHerodotusx
United Kingdom114 Posts
I see it as a matter of time. Obviously SC2 is not the same as BW, there are different skill-sets required and the meta-games are at huge variance. Most of the names dominating the SC2 scene are under 20 and most of them either came into BW late or were relegated to positions of little importance within their teams. They were attempting to crack into a game that had a long history and whose play had been so intensely refined that a breakout is a long-shot. In SC2 there were clean-slates all around; the players got to come into a game with no history and largely different mechanics and strategies from its predecessor. Hotbid's quote hits the nail on the head: he states that JD and Flash are outliers, meaning that they are unlike the vast majority of BW players, if they came to SC2 they would excel, but not because they are inherently better players, only because their work ethics are so strong that they would not stop until they are physically unable to continue playing. If a normal BW pro came over, I assume they would have a similar experience as those who have switched; their skills would not magically transfer over to a game with different mechanics and strategies. But we don't see most BW pros switching over, there is less money and less prestige in SC2, it is not ingrained in Korea's culture like BW is. It is, then, reasonable to assume that the players who would switch over would be those who had little to gain from BW, either having conquered the scene previously like Nada and Boxer or being stuck in a position with little potential for monetary gain. Ultimately, I think it's stupid to say that SC2 is made up of less skilled players who are slacking and would rather play for fun. They are dominating the game, a game that is decidedly not BW. Put in a position where his competitive drive has shone through, MC is crushing. He was not given this opportunity to the same extent in BW. Flash and JD would quickly rise to the top of SC2 and challenge the likes of MC, but not because they are more skilled at BW. Success in SC2 is based on the effort put into SC2 and until someone steps in and implements practice styles similar to those in BW we cannot say that such a method is inherently better. This post should only come AFTER the top BW pros have switched over to SC2. Then we can judge whether their work ethic and skill is better than those players currently at the top of SC2. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:29 setzer wrote: It is possible that he is a professional gamer for more reasons than just the money involved. The mental acuity needed to play BW at his level, the extreme competition, national pride, prestige, fans and friends are all valid reasons why most of the current BW players continue playing. SC2 is just not popular in Korea and it reaches a cultural level like Broodwar I don't see the talent in Korea going to SC2. Another major thing that is missing from SC2 is an actual team league, and could also be a reason some choose to stick with BW. I'm just puncturing the OP. "Money is the same reason S-class and even A-class Brood War pros don't switch" My entire point is that the whole OP is revolving around that there's not enough money in the SC2 scene for a top player to switch, while there's actually tonnes more money in the SC2 scene for a 100% winner, which any top BW player's assumed to be, which I also don't agree with. We'll see what happens, but I think foreigners will keep up regardless of who switches. The skill sets required for the two games are really different, and the game mechanics are also different. There are several team leagues, most notably the GSTL. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:34 BenKen wrote: Honestly, the article is fine for the Blogs section. I wouldn't even mind it being highlighted. But to put it front and center on the main page reeks of shameless page-view whoring. The article adds nothing to the discussion that we didn't already know. All it does is needlessly call out SC2 players for not being as good as BW players, even though we all know that and accept that. I do not think TL has made the jump from tight-knit community website to page-view-whoring commercial site. Far from it. Posting articles that say nothing and do nothing but cause pages upon pages of circular arguments (and yes, i know I am falling for it by posting this) is very disappointing though. First time I've ever seen a main page article on TL and thought "man, I'm kinda disappointed they would do something like that" and I've been lurking around here around three years now. i personally wouldnt have thought this would be released as a news article at all, considering the vested interest tl has in sc2 with the teams and sponsors and money. im not sure i agree with the actual words said, but i do agree with some of his points. maybe if intrigue had said something like 'sc2 competition is still yet to achieve it's potential?' im assuming you are a sc2 fan, and i can understand that you feel disappointed (even though its intrigue posting and not tl.) but im a bw fan, and teamliquid has done things that make me disappointed too (not intrigue or anyone singularly, but the site) | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On May 13 2011 12:33 nugget-92 wrote: Excuse me but if you actually read the article you would notice that the very premise of this section of the article: Was to point out that Fruitdealer, Nestea and MC were bad BW players and that there were very few good BW player to change over. However, the article does point out some players that were good at the time of the switch. Nada RainBOw and MvP Although MvP is listed as having a 39% win rate when it is convenient to intrigue to say all BW converts were terrible when he had a 29-21 win rate after 2010 and a 1-26 win rate before 2010. I really don't understand why people are hating. It's like you haven't even read the OP. They feel threatened. It's like they think Intrigue is personally attacking them. As for Intrigue's opinion on Rainbow. I kindly disagree. For me, Rainbow was always just below average in KBK and when he finally got his pro gamer license. I never thought he was any good because of his poor decision-making. He was unbelievably good at gate macro though. His reaver micro was okay too, but I would never say he was above average when I look at his entire Brood War career. The only guy who came into SC2 above average in the Pro Scene was MVP. You could probably make a case for July as well considering he was still on the A-Team at the time, but even then he wasn't sent out much. :/ | ||
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