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On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise.
Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it!
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I don't understand the point of writing this article... but even more than that, I find it kind of funny that he called it "The Elephant in the Room". I would venture to say that at least 50% of the fans watching pro SC2 didn't even realize there was still a pro Brood War scene. I didn't until about a week ago. It's hardly an "elephant in a room". I was shocked to find out people were still willingly playing Brood War when there's a game out which is a direct upgrade. Poor guys.
Last year at MLG DC, I asked (Z)IdrA if he felt a sense of urgency to win a GSL before the top tier Brood War players switched. I was not sober enough to remember what he said. He sounded confident though, and I’m glad of it – foreigners are going to desperately need confidence if they are to keep up. Brood War's drawing power for live audiences has waned since the golden days, and I do not believe that the entire top tier of Brood War players will stay in that strange parallel world. They'll be here, a few at a time. Oh man, they’re coming.
Haha, why was this paragraph included? You just wanted to tell us that you asked IdrA a question but don't remember his answer? That's quite compelling evidence that you asked IdrA a question.
I think competition in Warcraft 3 was a farce because all the real competitors played Starcraft!
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On May 13 2011 10:51 Vidar wrote:
What action does the OP provoke? What are readers supposed to do with this information? Should top SC2 pros stop practicing because they are inherently less capable than the true BW pros, and will invariably be toppled when they switch over? I don't understand what use the point of "BW pros are better than SC2 pros" has in the community. What if we were to say that Chess pros are so fundamentally superior in their thought processes that they would invariably crush any BW players if they were to make the switch? Is there some way that we are supposed to respond to this? I simply don't see what is gained by these statements. For a statement that makes no gains, it sure does a lot of "calling out" and "belittling".
This is what I would take from it (for any aspiring SC2 pro):
Work hard and continue to evolve your race so you can deal with any imminent threats regardless of where they come from.
Intrigue says more BW pros will be switching over with free agency looming and pose the biggest threats in upcoming tournaments. Once this happens, we'll get to see the full picture or so he believes. This is based on their work ethic and tireless regime. These S Class and A Class pros will be the players that lead the charge and take the torch from the current top Korean players in HoTS by revolutionizing SC2 strategy and out tasking the current top Korean Players. That is Intrigue's impression.
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On May 13 2011 11:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:25 Sideburn wrote:
When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what? see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world. Clever approach though. On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant. 11 years of evidence says otherwise. Again; biased. In the beginning of SC and SCBW, everyone started in a level playing field. The Koreans was obviously the first to make it a "sport". Thus, the rest of the world who wanted to participate in this movement had to catch up. Can you call someone who had the opportunity to train specifically for a particular game "better" than someone who couldn't?
I'm not sure how i'm being biased. I think you're being ignorant of the facts. Realize that in the beginning there were tons of foreign pro BW players (that's what Teamliquid was in the first place). They competed pretty much on a level playing field with the Koreans, but the Koreans kept getting better.
Second, your argument is flawed. If someone gets a head start, they're forever unassailable as leaders? Market leaders stay the leaders forever?
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This somehow reminds me of MMA, when alot of fan boys claimed that the Pride fighters would come over and own the UFC, if they wanted to give up the lucrative money in Japan.
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On May 13 2011 11:34 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise. Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it!
rofl you can say that about anything then. Less than .001 percent of the world has ever studied nuclear physics. So it makes me sad that nuclear physicists dominate in a field where everyone hasn't had a chance.
Try again.
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(Z)FruitDealer left their first team oGs (where they were known as oGsSKS and oGsCool, respectively) only a couple months after beta to "enjoy SC2 as freely as possible." What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL?"
I don't think this point is really valid considering this was the first GSL, from what I heard of FruitDealer's story, he would have been practicing extremely hard, and since it was so early in the game pretty much anyone could have won it.
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On May 13 2011 11:32 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:24 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone. Well, to be fair they don't have to. I love BW and all but I don't expect people who just joined to the SC2 scene and maybe this is their 1st RTS to know whats up with the BW scene.Just like I can't really expect for kids who started gaming with the 360 to know how the NES and SNES was awesome. Its sad but the fact that someone likes SC2 doesn't oblige them to know their BW. And expecting that is just (and sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone) a useless elitist attitude. Well then we've certainly seen one thing, and that's this generation isn't very humble and is incredibly naive. Sure no one expects you to know everything about sc1 if you just started, but then you really shouldn't be running around going "nah this different game flash wouldn't be good lolz" . Really ticks some people off. Know your place.
I bolded the part where you summarized the entire BW half of the thread in 3 words.
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On May 13 2011 11:40 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:34 Sideburn wrote:On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise. Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it! rofl you can say that about anything then. Less than .001 percent of the world has ever studied nuclear physics. So it makes me sad that nuclear physicists dominate in a field where everyone hasn't had a chance. Try again.
Exactly. Thank you. You eloquently illustrated the point I was trying to make.
Which is why the premise of the the entire original post flummoxes me. Of course, there are better players out there in the world that will eventually eclipse the current ones. Lots of them are playing BW. Lots aren't. So? So something is a farce if there are people out there that could be doing better? k
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On May 13 2011 11:43 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:32 rysecake wrote:On May 13 2011 11:24 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone. Well, to be fair they don't have to. I love BW and all but I don't expect people who just joined to the SC2 scene and maybe this is their 1st RTS to know whats up with the BW scene.Just like I can't really expect for kids who started gaming with the 360 to know how the NES and SNES was awesome. Its sad but the fact that someone likes SC2 doesn't oblige them to know their BW. And expecting that is just (and sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone) a useless elitist attitude. Well then we've certainly seen one thing, and that's this generation isn't very humble and is incredibly naive. Sure no one expects you to know everything about sc1 if you just started, but then you really shouldn't be running around going "nah this different game flash wouldn't be good lolz" . Really ticks some people off. Know your place. I bolded the part where you summarized the entire BW half of the thread in 3 words.
there is a BW half of the thread?all I see are people who come to terms with the article and those who are in denial.This is not an SC2 vs BW,its only seems that way.
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people here act like this flash guy was born a sc pro. i just read his liquipedia page, dude didnt even come around until like 2007 and it took him a couple years to get to where he is now. thanks but no thanks, bw is outdated and and not very entertaining to watch, ill stick with sc2.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 13 2011 10:56 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL. I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious. If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious. The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised. For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views. If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention. Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day) From TL 2011 CensusShow nested quote +Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes 60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room. TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured. The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section. Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps. [/rant]
I think this is a great post despite me being of the opposing viewpoint. I think that this elephant in the room was obvious to most people as well, though. TL could be split into TL and TL2, or at least have TL2/TL be a button in the header or have it become teamliquid.net/2 or something so that SC2 fans can bookmark it and fans of both can browse both with a click of a button. I think this would minimize a lot of drama, and any violators of this division (trolls from one game to another, or bitter BW vets, whatever) would be insta-banned from the side they offend and maybe a lengthy temp ban on the one they frequent. I would be so happy to have BW (Korean) be the default search option in TLPD. However, this is not the path TL has chosen, even though the mechanics of the strategy forums, teamliquidpro, and other common necessities are easy to replicate to achieve this site division. They want the games to co-exist, to benefit from each other, and for the userbase to be centralized as a whole. A divisive article like this (it is what it is, whether it was intended to be or not) might be necessary in order to get a lot of things out in the open about how the integral people of the site, the staff, feel about the state of things, and through the comments - both staff and a vast majority of members. This to me seems like a great thing, because:
1. It brings us closer to the mods (intrigue and the ones who have commented, and the fact that the majority consented this) and their mentality. The mods are all too human, something that might be lost in a forum so fucking huge. I know for a fact that on other big forums, I don't see mods or most other users are personalities, but just part of a wall of text. Teamliquid used to be very tight-nit. Anyone with over 2000 or even 1000 posts was well known. Back then the mods were intensely connected with the community, which had far fewer divisions at any point. This is very different now. For better or for worse, I think it was a valuable thinkpiece for people - this is how the people on the site they frequent think, this is their PERSONAL take on it.
2. [TLFE]s of the past, if I recall correctly, were never posted as "News." This is different now, and can be for one or both of the following reasons: it was the first one in a while, or the staff wanted to draw attention to it more due to the volume of the site (specifically newer members). I think that whatever is written here is completely intentional, and the approval for it being posted is as well. They were always opinion pieces, they were always written with strong rhetoric and either hyperbole or grand metaphor. The fact that it was meant to generate discussion and that it generated a lot of negative discussion is NOT an issue. It's an issue with the READERS, not the writers. If the article was inflammatory to the point of saying "SC2 is straight shit, we all hate it and fuck you" then I think even most BW posters would be taken aback by such posting. This is NOT what happened. This brings me to point 3:
3. This discussion is an eye-opener in so many ways. It was a very apt way of bringing forth, understanding, and then potentially HANDLING this issue. I think that it is an indicator of the forum's health and mannerisms, its core beliefs. If a mere thread on a gaming website is generating so much animosity and division within its populace, there is a clear sign of underlying problems (also utmost dedication), and perhaps should serve as a lesson to us all. I don't know if there will be further moderator input on this issue on this level, but I am sure they are thinking about it.
In short, I think we all (myself included) could see this as a sign that we need to grow up, and that in doing so maybe if we can't accept the other portion of the site, we should at least live in peace with them like adults. TL census says we are mostly 18 and over. The veterans are mostly not much above that, at least not so much that some of us can maintain our composure and not lash back at the perceived injustices you listed. We are all relatively young, but we're not children.
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So, I'm just going to be honest, you have NO evidence to prove your arguments. This read has to have been the BIGGEST waste of time for you to write, and more so than that, the fact so many people think you actually have facts to back you up is even more so annoying for me. So, let me express the REAL elephant in the room, because this entire thread is infested with moronic SC:BW players who want to jab at the SC2 players. I suppose the only reason TL allows this post is because all of their members are out of the TSL and GSL Code S, so they don’t care if they are bashed for it.
This entire fucking article relies on one basic premise: since people of lower caliber in a different game switch over to this game and enjoy success; people of higher caliber in a different game will enjoy even more success if they switched. This premise is faulty, false, and also, the rest of the argument is built around so many logical flaws that it may seem to make sense (since the flaws seem to patch each other up quite well), but in reality, it’s just a FLOP.
Let’s look at MC:
MC – 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 – May 2010
Looks ABYSMALL. You don’t have to tell me, it is what it is.
Oh, quick look at NesTea:
NesTea – 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 – May 2009
Again, looks quite bad.
But… maybe FruitDealer can heal them?
FruitDealer – 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 – Feb 2008
I want everyone to ignore the win/lose ratio and the number of games. Please look at the DATES of these. These “sources” are so OUTDATED, that to make shit up like this is not EVEN FUCKING ACCEPTABLE. Not only that, look at the times: each player is given a period of 2 years to look at.
• TesteR, Code S, beta monster - 45-69 (39.47%) Nov 2003 - Jan 2010
• Bomber, ST ace, as well as #1 SC2 TLPD ELO - 1-2 (33.33%) Aug 2007 - June 2010
• SangHo, Code S - 43-63 (40.57%) Mar 2006 - Mar 2010
• TheWinD, Code S - 49-70 (41.18%) Oct 2000 - Aug 2007
• SuperNoVa, Code S – 13-22 (37.14%) Mar 2007 to Nov 2010
This is REAL data. But yet, once again, it’s outdated. You may say, that’s pretty close to 2011 though! No, the fact remains, that so many people learn in so many different ways. Not only that, some people realize how to play sooner, some people weren’t given the time they needed to learn how to play SC:BW as well as SC2.
Let me point this out as well: your opinion is also weakly backed up with… well, everything. Your evidence could mean anything, it doesn’t even have a basis. For example, your argument is that “BW players are so good, that if they switched, they’d tear the scene up.” However, that makes NO SENSE with regards to your evidence. Let me remind you of your beginning: MC, NesTea, and FruitDealer won the GSL. Yet, you say “their BW experience suggests that they suck.” So explain this to me:
• RainBOw, Code S, GSL silver and bronze - 116-114 (50.43%)
• Ace, stomped white dudes at IEM – 2-0 (100%)
These guys are “above average” BW players right? How come they haven’t trashed the best players of SC2? They’ve both been playing for QUITE a while. If I remember correctly, Ace was stomped in the first round of GSL May Code A.
For your quote on GuemChi:
You twisted his words. I mean, that was disgustingly low. Let me explain WHY it was low:
You never state the practice environment at ST at all. You leave it up to the viewer to think “ST doesn’t take it seriously, they just play games”, when in reality, you don’t have the access to tell us what they do, which is why you leave it to our imagination on your sensationalist article. Not only that, this guy, GuemChi; I didn’t even know he existed until today. You quote random people, and you never quote the entire story.
“30-40 games is about the workload of an average Brood War pro, and this (along with BoxeR's eye for talent) is already enough for SlayerS to rock the scene.”
Uhm what? If they were rocking the scene, one of them would be in Code S.
• BoxeR – 353-275 (56.21%)
• NaDa - 439-290 (60.22%)
• July - 267-202 (56.93%)
Okay, just give up. Seriously, I hate you for the random crap you think you can spew. This goes against your premise, that people who were originally good at SC:BW would be good at SC2. I repeat: the amount of evidence you have is faulty, and anything that comes from your post has been bad for your case.
“The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top.”
Lol, and this contradicts this:
“I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.”
More so, this gives us a general idea of how you like to think:
“Last year at MLG DC, I asked IdrA if he felt a sense of urgency to win a GSL before the top tier Brood War players switched. I was not sober enough to remember what he said.”
You were drunk? You interview while your drunk? Oh hell no, even MORE reason not to believe you. ETHOS is necessary to be credible.
So, we can all agree your argument is limited to Pathos (because it denies all Logos). Your argument is faulty and awful, and relies on the fact that the reader will only read it ONCE and then come to a conclusion, disregarding all your BAD evidence. Your logic is obscure and unfamiliar to this world. You contradict yourself, but somehow still agree with your original theory.
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On May 13 2011 11:39 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:34 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:25 Sideburn wrote:
When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what? see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world. Clever approach though. On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant. 11 years of evidence says otherwise. Again; biased. In the beginning of SC and SCBW, everyone started in a level playing field. The Koreans was obviously the first to make it a "sport". Thus, the rest of the world who wanted to participate in this movement had to catch up. Can you call someone who had the opportunity to train specifically for a particular game "better" than someone who couldn't? I'm not sure how i'm being biased. I think you're being ignorant of the facts. Realize that in the beginning there were tons of foreign pro BW players (that's what Teamliquid was in the first place). They competed pretty much on a level playing field with the Koreans, but the Koreans kept getting better. Second, your argument is flawed. If someone gets a head start, they're forever unassailable as leaders? Market leaders stay the leaders forever?
Please read your post before replying. It's really annoying to read the same thing over and over from you without any evidence or relevance. First, you totally evaded my point of "the rest of the world had to catch up". I meant that Koreans get to practice with other competitive players in teams and has a schedule dedicated to playing SCBW. I think the term is called a "pro". Please provide specific examples of your "tons of foreign pro BW players". Your second statement sounds like a blind follower. That supports my argument actually. Thus, SC2 pros having a "head start" in SC2 means that SCBW pros won't be able to catch up.
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On May 13 2011 11:32 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:24 windsupernova wrote:On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone. Well, to be fair they don't have to. I love BW and all but I don't expect people who just joined to the SC2 scene and maybe this is their 1st RTS to know whats up with the BW scene.Just like I can't really expect for kids who started gaming with the 360 to know how the NES and SNES was awesome. Its sad but the fact that someone likes SC2 doesn't oblige them to know their BW. And expecting that is just (and sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone) a useless elitist attitude. Well then we've certainly seen one thing, and that's this generation isn't very humble and is incredibly naive. Sure no one expects you to know everything about sc1 if you just started, but then you really shouldn't be running around going "nah this different game flash wouldn't be good lolz" . Really ticks some people off. Know your place.
Well, I agree in that people saying that flash wouldn't be good don't know what they are talking about. But lets be fair there are crappy trolls in both sides of the arguments and judging from this thread many of the SC2 arguers (and I am including myself on this one even though I love both games) acknowledge that if the current BW pros switched over they would be awesome(I'd actually love to see that) but that doesn't mean that the current pro games we are watching is "cheapened" by that in the same way that if Time travel was invented tomorrow and the current BW pros had the possibility to travel to the Boxer\Yellow\grr\Elky (meaning the early days of BW) days that doesn't mean those games are cheapened by that.
And, seriously "know my place"? Saying that the SC2 proscene is cheapened because the current players were bad at BW can tick another group of people off. I am not asking anyone to stop watching BW, I am not asking for people to like SC2, I am asking for the SC2 community(of course the ones who are not herp derping around) to be treated with some respect too.
Edit: Well, maybe my choice of words was not that appropriate. I guess that what I am asking is to treat the regular people who want to discuss SC2/BW and are not bad members of the community to be respected. And please, I know TL has been getting a lot of crap posters but that is just something that comes with an increased community (more people= more likely that some people will be bad posters).
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On May 13 2011 11:46 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:40 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 11:34 Sideburn wrote:On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise. Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it! rofl you can say that about anything then. Less than .001 percent of the world has ever studied nuclear physics. So it makes me sad that nuclear physicists dominate in a field where everyone hasn't had a chance. Try again. Exactly. Thank you. You eloquently illustrated the point I was trying to make. Which is why the premise of the the entire original post flummoxes me. Of course, there are better players out there in the world that will eventually eclipse the current ones. Lots of them are playing BW. Lots aren't. So? So something is a farce if there are people out there that could be doing better? k
It's a farce because there appear to be proven better players that aren't coming over. But the whole methodology behind the proving is shaky, to be sure, and depends whether you believe BW and SC2 skills are transferable (or even more biased, is whether you believe being good at BW = being good at sc2).
Your argument though, of comparing players to those who haven't played, is statistically retarded. Relevant demographics plz.
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On May 13 2011 11:47 stratmatt wrote:
people here act like this flash guy was born a sc pro. i just read his liquipedia page, dude didnt even come around until like 2007 and it took him a couple years to get to where he is now. thanks but no thanks, bw is outdated and and not very entertaining to watch, ill stick with sc2.
He read the Liquipedia page guys, the jig is up!
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On May 13 2011 11:34 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise. Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it!
Unless your name is Kolll, there are very and I mean very few examples of players having any success within a limited time frame.
Yes, many gamers have never tried BW because we're talking about different generations of gamers. Most of the forum vets are well into their 20s now.
If we go back to '97 and ask PC gamers if they played BW at any capacity, odds are they'll say they played it. It doesn't end there. We have eras with over a decade of experience. Prior to ICCUP, Cloudmania, WGTour, PGTour, etc. over 100,000 players would be online on any given server playing with anywhere from 30k to 50k games being played. Hell, there were even different communities for BGH, fastest maps, ladder, KBK, clan leagues, UMS, etc. Yes, there is an untapped reservoir as you call it. But, many people have tried and found their own ceiling. Whether it be D- to A (Iccup rankings). Considering games have gotten user-friendly and other things aside, I think the younger generation will find Brood War very challenging and very frustrating. Some players like Kolll will be able to figure shit out in several months. Others, well it could take you a decade just to get anywhere and even then you might just be a D+ player. o;
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i cant believe some people think flash wouldnt be doing better than mvp in sc2 if he switched (and had proper time to practise.) flash is a superior rts player in every single way to mvp, does anyone really think he developed some super unique skill after he switched to sc2 lol?
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On May 13 2011 11:34 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
11 years of evidence says otherwise. Everyone did try and fail? Less than 0.005% of the world population has even played BW. So it would be more accurate to say that NO ONE has tried. There is a huge untapped reservoir of BW talent out there that could switch and dominate the scene! This cheapens it!
There are better basketball players then Lebron James, we just havn't seen them play ..!
Yeah, keep deluding yourself.
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EPT
