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On May 13 2011 10:18 s3raph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 10:09 Bayyne wrote:
So people are having issues with the god damn tone of an editorial? Really? Seems like people are hurt that the article sheds a truthful light on one view of the state of SC2.
Example: Pick up a Sports Illustrated magazine, flip to the last page where the weekly editorials are, and observe the tone of the writer. Very very frequently (and I've been a subscriber to SI for a very long time) the articles have a very sarcastic, almost offensive type of tone. I love it, and so does the rest of normal society that doesn't have skin the thickness of silk. It makes you question the writer, makes you think, makes you mad, makes you sad. It's good read.
I genuinely feel bad, and in the same vein have a lot of respect, for the mods that have to go through and read the utterly disgusting, vaginal sand infested posts people love to post today. Sure, post your opinions. Share your feelings. But you know what? When there is just a constant stream of statements like "I don't appreciate the tone, it's offensive, snarf snarf", it takes a shit on other genuinely constructive posts that have merit.
GG.
Because Glenn Beck's comments, which make you question the writer, makes people think, makes people mad, sad, etc, are helpful to the American political process? This post is so full of terrible logic that it's disgusting. Yeah, sensationalism might be beloved by 'the rest of normal society,' but it doesn't mean it solves anything, is efficacious, or does anything constructive. In a sense, you've just completely destroyed the very purpose of an editorial down to a self-exposition of terrible logic rather than an accessible, formal piece of writing that spurs intelligent and confident discussion. I don't think people are rebelling against editorialism. I think people are upset about sensationalist journalism that fails to illuminate a basic fact, tent, or understanding in a manner that encourages beneficial discussion. I feel genuinely bad that people like you are the reason why birther controversies and other forms of misinformation and propaganda are so effective among human society.
First of all, Glenn Beck is an inspiration to all the GED accredited, politically motivated, sensational desiring activists. >_>
Second, there's a big difference between sensationalistic reports and opinions; you probably should know the difference since you seem to have such a wonderful grasp on the root of the problem that is the "forms of misinformation and propaganda" and "birther controversies".
Disagreeing with an author's point of view? Fine. Commenting on his questionable facts? I love it. But incessant crying over "inappropriate" language and tone? I don't know about that one.
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On May 13 2011 10:15 gozima wrote:
The way SC2 is designed, I doubt guys of the caliber of Flash, JD, Bisu etc, would somehow revolutionize the way SC2 is played if they decided to make the switch.
I'm sure they're be consistently good, but I doubt they'd be as dominant as they are in BW.
I'm basically saying that I don't believe the skill ceiling in SC2 is as high as some people think it is.
This a millions time over. I will keep my expectations extremely low as well. The game design is lax, but mindsets change as well for various reasons. I could easily see a player get complacent with their situation considering they paid their dues already in BW.
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We just need a Scumbag Steve meme saying:
Close all threads about SC2 vs BW
Front page a SC2 vs BW article.
After all, comparing SC2 competitive scene to highschool football is nothing but BW Elitism. With TSL and TSL2 it was understood that it wasn't the highest level, but nobody went out of there way to say "This is a joke, Frozean could win this blindfolded." Now the actual highest level of SC2 play is being exhibited in TSL3 and you come around and smack dab on the front say, "Hold on, this is a farce. This is amateur shit because there are people, who haven't shown interest in playing, that I think would dominate, after an undetermined amount of time practicing." How is that not offensive flame?
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I agree with this editorial for the most part, especially Hot_Bid's contribution. BW A class players will do extremely well due to their mechanics, practice, and RTS understanding, but they won't completely dominate the scene singlehandedly, due to the comparative simplicity of SC2's gameplay compared to BW. However, the S class players like Flash and Jaedong will definitely have great success because when you're that good at BW, you are going to be insane at SC2 (and any other standard RTS) regardless of the differences.
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On May 13 2011 10:18 s3raph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 10:09 Bayyne wrote:
So people are having issues with the god damn tone of an editorial? Really? Seems like people are hurt that the article sheds a truthful light on one view of the state of SC2.
Example: Pick up a Sports Illustrated magazine, flip to the last page where the weekly editorials are, and observe the tone of the writer. Very very frequently (and I've been a subscriber to SI for a very long time) the articles have a very sarcastic, almost offensive type of tone. I love it, and so does the rest of normal society that doesn't have skin the thickness of silk. It makes you question the writer, makes you think, makes you mad, makes you sad. It's good read.
I genuinely feel bad, and in the same vein have a lot of respect, for the mods that have to go through and read the utterly disgusting, vaginal sand infested posts people love to post today. Sure, post your opinions. Share your feelings. But you know what? When there is just a constant stream of statements like "I don't appreciate the tone, it's offensive, snarf snarf", it takes a shit on other genuinely constructive posts that have merit.
GG.
Because Glenn Beck's comments, which make you question the writer, makes people think, makes people mad, sad, etc, are helpful to the American political process? This post is so full of terrible logic that it's disgusting. Yeah, sensationalism might be beloved by 'the rest of normal society,' but it doesn't mean it solves anything, is efficacious, or does anything constructive. In a sense, you've just completely destroyed the very purpose of an editorial down to a self-exposition of terrible logic rather than an accessible, formal piece of writing that spurs intelligent and confident discussion. I don't think people are rebelling against editorialism. I think people are upset about sensationalist journalism that fails to illuminate a basic fact, tent, or understanding in a manner that encourages beneficial discussion. I feel genuinely bad that people like you are the reason why birther controversies and other forms of misinformation and propaganda are so effective among human society.
Glenn Beck isn't an editorialist and you're not Jon Stewart. This was an opinion piece advocating a general view on an issue, on a site which is basically a news site for SC2. Fareed Zakaria does the same thing in TIME, except about world events instead of SC2 events. The OP generated an opinion based on the data and common sense available to him.
Maybe it's not constructive for SC2 in the sense that it's sharp, but not all opinions are positive. It's not positive for me to read about how the United States is slipping behind China in the global economy and that apparently there's not shit that we can do about it. But I bet anyone with a NYTimes subscription has read about it a dozen times.
tl;dr Some opinion writing is sober and critical, what's the big deal?
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Dedication and hard work makes the good players good. Whether these "sc2 pros" played broodwar and dedicated as much time as they do now is obviously clear. Those with higher records are the ones that prepare more and practice more. That is 100% true in every single competitive title in the entirety of E-sports.
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What action does the OP provoke? What are readers supposed to do with this information? Should top SC2 pros stop practicing because they are inherently less capable than the true BW pros, and will invariably be toppled when they switch over? I don't understand what use the point of "BW pros are better than SC2 pros" has in the community. What if we were to say that Chess pros are so fundamentally superior in their thought processes that they would invariably crush any BW players if they were to make the switch? Is there some way that we are supposed to respond to this? I simply don't see what is gained by these statements. For a statement that makes no gains, it sure does a lot of "calling out" and "belittling".
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This is definitely an awesome OP / FE.
IMO, BW is much more fun to watch than SC2- simply because SC2 games are either stupidly quick, or go into a macro game where 1 player just destroys the other because of superior mechanics OR one makes a huge mistake and loses it psychologically...
@skynet-
I believe the 300 was pro/semi-pro in SC2 (given international competition the way it is, this is not surprising...)
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On May 13 2011 09:57 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:32 NikonTC wrote:
The issue I have with this editorial is that it is just not very good. It's all very well saying "It provokes a response", but is that really a good thing? Tabloid journalism is designed to provoke a response. And to my mind, that's what this article is. A piece of tabloid style "news" with spurious facts and a heavy dose of opinion thrown in.
I'm not suggesting that ever article on TL should be an academic paper of publishable quality, I'd just prefer not to see people like the OP and others start judging their "success" based on the amount of discussion they provoke, and creating more articles of this quality.
Why is it not good? I think provoking a response is a good thing. It's better than posting something that no one replies to. And Im confused why you would think provoking discussion isnt success to some extent. I like quality articles, what is wrong with an article of this quality? Just because it does not fit your tastes does not mean it isnt 'good' in the abstract sense. It's miles above 99% of anything else I see here on TL.
I think the problem is the response it provoked. I doubt anyone here is arguing on the content of the article. The point that the people winning SC2 tournaments are not the best that will ever be is so blindingly obvious it boggles my mind. The point that there are BW legends who haven't tranferred and have a skill set miles beyond the current ex-BW pros is also blindingly obvious. The assumption that these skills will help them enormously if they transferred is also blindingly obvious.
If a discussion around these points was provoked by the article then yes it would be a great article. There is little to no discussion around these points because they are blindingly obvious.
The discussion is around the associated dismissal of SC2 competition. If this is what the author wanted to provoke then the article is a sensationalist derivative tabloid troll. I guess we need to know whether intrigue intended this to turn into a "SC2 competition is a cheap farce" flame war or whether he actually wanted people to talk about the exciting possibility that SC2 has a huge potential that isn't currently being realised.
For a community site that prides itself on trying to grow the community this article, as it stands, does the opposite. The fact that it was put front page in the featured news means TL knew that this is a well written article article that needed to be discussed. The mods have mentioned that they discussed this internally, aware that it would cause controversy. The took the time to include in a disclaimer saying this doesn't represent all their views.
If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention.
Some obvious stats that may help point to why this is dangerous for TL. (Obvious I know, but that seems to be the theme of the day)
From TL 2011 Census
Poll: Why do you mainly come to Team Liquid?
Content related to Starcraft 2 (3997)
60%
Content related to both SC:BW and SC2 (1723)
26%
Content related to SC:BW (530)
8%
The Community/People (Blogs/Etc) (265)
4%
Other Sports/Games (LoL, EVE, Mafia) (69)
1%
Other (post in thread) (54)
1%
6638 total votes
60% of people here have no interest in BW. Whilst only 26% have an interest in both. That means that 86% of people enjoy SC2 compared to 34% for BW. This is bound to be hard on BW veterans as their site is being over run by new guys. Of course you are going to get defensive. To me that is the elephant in the room.
TL is changing. This article seems like an attempt to get back at SC2 for fundamentally altering TL. It is not about BW pros, or comparitive skill. It is a snide attempt at enforcing an aging superiority. If TL doesn't embrace their new members, it will soon be irrelevant. Don't hide behind the disclaimer, TL knew this would be controversial and still chose to allow the tone of the article to go un-changed and featured.
The only way BW will grow with SC2 around will be in there are more people coming here for both. It seems silly to insult SC2 as something lesser when most people don't come here for BW. Growing SC2 will help BW to grow, if and only if people feel that BW vets want new members. This article alienates new members and should not have been posted in the featured news section.
Provoking a response is one thing. Provoking a response around a completely irrelevant topic is something completely different. Particularly when it divides the community into two defensive camps.
[/rant]
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Actually I think this article is a bit silly. If you look the former "unbeatable" champions of Warcraft III and Dawn of War, SeleCT and Moon, are doing reasonably well in their respective scenes, but not dominating. The biggest issue with these players, I feel, is that their practice partners are simply not up to snuff; dignitas is a primarily European team, so SeleCT does exceptionally as a mass-gamer and a student of himself but doesn't have as much access to the top Europeans that he needs to develop. Moon is still contracted to FOX, where aside from Lynn he has no really amazing training buddies or peers on his team. While both of these players are certainly putting in the hours, have developed a style and metagame that surrounds them, both of them have not been able to test their styles and thought processes exhaustively.
We see the same properties of emerging player and WC3 star Grubby. He's switched over recently, but is completely failing to meet the standards of the highest level competitors, with sporadic spurts of his WC3 brilliance.
Meanwhile oGs, IM and Slayer_S players continue to emerge and dominate the current scene, and their Liquidian roommates have performed exceptionally well for foreigners, while subpar teams like TSL and fOu continue to fall more and more under the radar. oGsMC has a full practice house with a half-dozen Code S/A level players and their practice partners supporting him, as well as the liquid players and an excellent coach in oGsTheWind. He will continue to do well for a while if he continues to practice hard. MvP has NesTea and Losira as TvZ practice partners and will likely be one of the best TvZ for some time, meanwhile the Slayer_S Terrans are coached by Boxer and are fielding an impressive array of Code S/A-level recruits.
The argument here is that one doesn't become amazing BECAUSE of having next-level mental abilities or genius of sorts; one is allowed to advance by the calibur of the people that he practices with and the ability of his coaches. Mass ladder players in the US like the NRG and SixJax teams or players like Destiny traditionally perform at a subpar level in tournaments because the infrastructure is simply not there to support them and they are unable to consistently interact with players that will exploit and then point out their flaws and help them develop.
Now I'm not saying that Flash, Jaedong and Bisu got where they are without a talent for strategy and personal development. But consider that Bisu, starting as a relatively uninteresting player known only for having tons of APM, acquired his signature vs. Z build, the forge expand into Corsairs with DTs or Reavers, by combining one of the most solid economic openings with one of the most interesting new army compositions and refining it against SKT, which has for a long time been the best progaming team in Korea. Flash refined double armory and further refined his TvP against Stats and Violet, and rumor has it their coach is freaking amazing. Would these players be where they are without some guidance or suggestion? Doubtful; and anyways, a 30% winrate in proleagues in BW means that you were damn good at BW.
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I don't really see how the OP is really that negative.
The fact that SC2 gameplay has a potential for even more gosu play is a GOOD thing for the game, and not a bad thing. New players who dominate the scene may be former A-Class BW players, they may just be random new people, they may even be former WC3 players.
SC2 is a deep game, but it's not necessarily the case that those who are best at BW will also be best at SC2. (e.g. just because I am the best tennis singles player in the world does not mean I will be the best doubles player, even with practice). Even though it seems likely that Flash would dominate everyone if he switched over, we can't just "assume" that BW talent scales equally with SC2 talent, because, while similar, they are different games which require somewhat different skill-sets. Even if those skill-sets are exactly the same as those required for BW, there's nothing to say that new players who practice a TON and who have a lot of talent can't have success with the game. Sure, many of them will probably not do so well, especially against former BW pros. But I'm sure there will be plenty of new people on the scene who can compete.
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I'm quite surprised this is still front page. The article accomplishes nothing other than letting us know that future waves of players will be better than the ones now. It's an obvious attempt at trolling the ENTIRE community. Assuming that anyone with 'higher power' than Intrigue has read this by now I find it extremely unprofessional and embarrassing for them to allow this article to stay front page.
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On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote:
Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks!
But that is what the article is? I'm so confused.
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Love the article and I agree on basically every issue. We have seen absolutely nothing in terms of what SC2 skill really is until we get the legit code S BW players rocking the scene.
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On May 13 2011 11:02 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote:
Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! But that is what the article is? I'm so confused.
Not really Intrigue is just saying that the level of competition in Sc2 could be much more higher.
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On May 13 2011 11:04 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:02 Sideburn wrote:On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote:
Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! But that is what the article is? I'm so confused. Not really Intrigue is just saying that the level of competition in Sc2 could be much more higher.
Which he does by comparing it to the BW scene and its pros. I'm not saying that the original article is bad. I'm not making a judgement about it. I'm just saying that we should call a spade a spade.
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I think its too early to compare SC2 with SCBW in terms of salaries and whatnot. Obviously SCBW is there longer. This means that SC2 is still improving (its not even 1 year old). SCBW has already established its being into the Korean economy. SC2 despite having a lot of hype is still too young for companies to start pouring money in. Comparing players between the two games is also ridiculous. SCBW pros aren't automatically better than the SC2 pros. SC2 is more friendly for beginners as they don't have to micro as much as SCBW. I would even theorize that SCBW pros won't find any use of their blazingly superior APM in SC2 other than constantly spamming. It's like a scientist who knows everything about environmental chemistry switching to pharmaceuticals. It would take them time to adapt. That's another reason why SCBW pros aren't switching either.
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Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy.
Also, IMO, commentators should lessen over-hyping a match when in fact the players in the game just made a simple a + mouse click. It's annoying, thats why I can't stand watching foreign caster.
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And here I thought that pointing this elephant out was taboo on TL. I completely agree. I watched the first couple seasons of GSL (and I own SC2), but the competition is just nowhere near BW's level. Hopefully it will be eventually, but right now? Nope, and it definitely does make the games less exciting to watch, when you know that you're basically watching the RTS minor league.
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On May 13 2011 11:02 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:09 Hot_Bid wrote:
Can we not turn this into BW vs SC2 please. Thanks! But that is what the article is? I'm so confused.
this isn't about which game is superior. This is about:
1.) The two games are similar to the point that skills are, to an extent, transferable to one another
2.) One of the two games (BW) appears to have vastly superior players.
3.) If #2 is true (and it's debatable), then the SC2 players are playing amongst and against inferior competition.
The ramifications of #3 are unsettling. Inferior players are getting paid big bucks to play other inferior players. Also, they appear (as argued by the OP), to not be working as hard as they should be. This is why it feels like a farce.
There's nothing in this OP that talks about the superiority of the gameplay of one over the other. People have mistaken it that way because they refuse to read.
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EPT
