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Australia8532 Posts
It's great to see the effort put into coherently explaining this point; BW vs SC2 is a notorious ban trap amongst these forums but an educated and informed thread is a pleasure to see; the raw talent and ability that Flash and JD have is truly something special - it is not something you can expect to happen all the time. HB correctly referred to them as outliers - this reference is exactly why this is almost a non issue; sure if these guys switched to SC2 they would dominate, but that is no more astounding than their BW domination.
It is expected; JD and Flash being better than MVP and MC does not back MVP or MC "bad" - it just makes them not as good as JD and Flash. As the SC2 develops and more stars begin to emerge, maybe the next Flash or JD will surface; but how many other Flash's and JD's are there in BW? Not many, if any :p
One of the bigger points of the argument is the "work ethic" or practice regime; this is where i feel a BW-esque influence could do a significant amount of good. SlayerS is the perfect example; BoxeR introduces a BW style training regime and they win the team league - can you imagine the level of games when the other teams realise what it really takes to compete at the highest levels and win leagues!? 30-40 games a day will become the norm, but only once all the teams realise that is how you win consistently.
Great write up - and if anything it really made me excited to see the evolution of SC2 into where BW is today 
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The way SC2 is designed, I doubt guys of the caliber of Flash, JD, Bisu etc, would somehow revolutionize the way SC2 is played if they decided to make the switch.
I'm sure they're be consistently good, but I doubt they'd be as dominant as they are in BW.
I'm basically saying that I don't believe the skill ceiling in SC2 is as high as some people think it is.
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Great article, very well argued. I'm a fan of SC2...but this article is the truth. Intrigue does a great job of stating what everyone knows but would rather not admit to themselves. The players who are stars of SC2 were either mediocre or past the primes of their BW careers, which is why they switched over in the first place. I'm happy for it, though. As a Nada fan I actually get to cheer for him going deep into individual leagues, whereas there was little hope for him regaining that stature in BW. Perhaps the time will come when the top players switch to SC2, but that time has not yet come.
I'm not sure why people are interpreting the article in strange ways, though. It's not saying that BW is a better game than SC2, nor does it matter if SC2 has more time to "develop" or "become solved". lol, those things have nothing to do with the issues Intrigue brings up.
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On May 13 2011 10:09 Bayyne wrote:
So people are having issues with the god damn tone of an editorial? Really? Seems like people are hurt that the article sheds a truthful light on one view of the state of SC2.
Example: Pick up a Sports Illustrated magazine, flip to the last page where the weekly editorials are, and observe the tone of the writer. Very very frequently (and I've been a subscriber to SI for a very long time) the articles have a very sarcastic, almost offensive type of tone. I love it, and so does the rest of normal society that doesn't have skin the thickness of silk. It makes you question the writer, makes you think, makes you mad, makes you sad. It's good read.
I genuinely feel bad, and in the same vein have a lot of respect, for the mods that have to go through and read the utterly disgusting, vaginal sand infested posts people love to post today. Sure, post your opinions. Share your feelings. But you know what? When there is just a constant stream of statements like "I don't appreciate the tone, it's offensive, snarf snarf", it takes a shit on other genuinely constructive posts that have merit.
GG.
Because Glenn Beck's comments, which make you question the writer, makes people think, makes people mad, sad, etc, are helpful to the American political process? This post is so full of terrible logic that it's disgusting. Yeah, sensationalism might be beloved by 'the rest of normal society,' but it doesn't mean it solves anything, is efficacious, or does anything constructive. In a sense, you've just completely destroyed the very purpose of an editorial down to a self-exposition of terrible logic rather than an accessible, formal piece of writing that spurs intelligent and confident discussion.
I don't think people are rebelling against editorialism. I think people are upset about sensationalist journalism that fails to illuminate a basic fact, tent, or understanding in a manner that encourages beneficial discussion.
I feel genuinely bad that people like you are the reason why birther controversies and other forms of misinformation and propaganda are so effective among human society.
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You can beast at this game with 90apm it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that the competition level is crap :/ nothing about the current current pro play is impressive the way pro play in Brood War is, and while that fact isn't helped by the absence of skilled players like Flash and Jaedong, their presence wouldn't fix the problem because the game won't allow for it.
Although i do get your point that the hypothetical domination of players like flash and jaedong cheapens any kind of achievement being had currently. I think sc2 achievement will always be cheap regardless. Good article thanks intrigue.
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moman vs sjow game one is a perfect example of why this article was written
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I can't believe this discussion is dying down!
It would be nice for the thread to reach at least 200 pages...
I mean it's the most controversial TLFE ever and its 100 pages short of reaching the msl Group D LR thread...
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On May 13 2011 09:36 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 09:31 reg0ner wrote:On May 13 2011 09:11 d_so wrote:On May 13 2011 09:02 manloveman wrote:
I dont know who is worse. The bitter vets sperging bw>sc2 (including OP) or the sc2 noobs who is actually trying to argue against OP's logic.
While OP is very solid in his arguments, there is one thing he is dead wrong about. The sc2 scene is not a farce. While its top korean players where nobody in bw, and the game itself is a lot less mechanical, dare I say more casual, they still represent the best there is in the current sc2 scene. They are still competing and I'm still entertained and following.
If you wonna watch super skilled gameplay that the sc2 scene is still working its towards, then fine with me. Just dont belittle the ones that just wonna see the current best of the game they play and enjoy. I agree with you that they do represent the best of the current sc2 scene. But that's irrelevant to whether they are a farce or not. The farce aspect comes because there may be better players out there who, for whatever reasons, refuse to play sc2. This makes sc2 look like a minor league. (whether it's true or not doesn't matter, since that's the public perception in korea, and perception is what drives advertising sales). So in the mind of BW fans, two questions arise: 1.) why would i want to watch minor league players? and 2.) why are they getting paid so much money? I raised this earlier in the thread but i'm going to bring it up again. SC2 feels like Guitar Hero, while BW feels like real guitar played by geniuses. This may or may not be true. But when a product imitates an already popular product, the burden of proof lies on the newcomer to show beyond all doubt not only that they are the superior product, but they can attract buyers as well. (See: Motorola Xoom vs. Ipad 2. Xoom may have superior stats but no one buys it.) 1.) why would i want to watch minor league players? Because less than 10% of the total Starcraft scene still cares about BW and a good 8% of those are in Korea. 2.) why are they getting paid so much money? Because Sponsors are backing a much much much much much better game that is visually stunning and appealing to everyone. Everyone. Not just Korea. Why do sponsors get behind new games? Because they require better computers. So when a company like Intel gets behind players and events, its because they want you to buy their products to play this game. Salaries like Jaedungs and Flush won't last long. Companies want you to splurge on new computers. It's not pretty but its the truth. Uhh its the other way around. Sponsors get behind games that they think will have a lot of viewers on the games so a large audience to show their products to. and guess what, in korea that audience is the mmo's. and brood war, as far as esports are concerned. sc2 is significantly smaller, hence the argument of OP.
Uhh.. thats hardly the argument of the OP first of all. And you're talking about S.Korea that televises their matches in their small country.
And aren't their sponsors all Korean only? Imagine the sponsors SC2 could tap into being WORLDWIDE.
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this is the worst TL article ever...... looks like TL is heading down hill...
the OP is foolishly comparing two game with very different histories.... so his "evidence" isnt wrong, its just his conclusion in false.
The meta game is alot newer in SC2... right now SC2 rewards critical thinking and creativity much more... so can switching from BW to SC2 give you a boost? sure, because your not facing people who are much less evolved in the meta game.
i personally would expect flash to be a very poor SC2 player at first, and with time would rise up... not the instant success the Op claims
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I think this article, is kind of pointless, yea it brings a good point to the table, but why do pros of the past have to be the pros of the future? I think the best question to rise is who is the NEXT Flash, who is the NEXT JaeDong?
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I agree with this Final Edit completely.
I cannot wait for  Flash and  Jaedong to come and rape all the current SC2 pros. Its gonna be great.
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On May 13 2011 10:19 Kanuck wrote:
this is the worst TL article ever...... looks like TL is heading down hill...
the OP is foolishly comparing two game with very different histories.... so his "evidence" isnt wrong, its just his conclusion in false.
The meta game is alot newer in SC2... right now SC2 rewards critical thinking and creativity much more... so can switching from BW to SC2 give you a boost? sure, because your not facing people who are much less evolved in the meta game.
i personally would expect flash to be a very poor SC2 player at first, and with time would rise up... not the instant success the Op claims
This comment is weird and once again totally disregards the articles most important point, that Flash and other S-class player will probably pillage any game since they have that mentality and that work ethic.
The creativity-jab is getting old btw, especially nowadays since ZvT in BW is changing A LOT thanks to very creative use of queens. So please, just face that SC2 is a sequal to BW. Same skills are used, same sort of people are gonna dominate in a year or two.
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On May 13 2011 10:25 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 10:19 Kanuck wrote:
this is the worst TL article ever...... looks like TL is heading down hill...
the OP is foolishly comparing two game with very different histories.... so his "evidence" isnt wrong, its just his conclusion in false.
The meta game is alot newer in SC2... right now SC2 rewards critical thinking and creativity much more... so can switching from BW to SC2 give you a boost? sure, because your not facing people who are much less evolved in the meta game.
i personally would expect flash to be a very poor SC2 player at first, and with time would rise up... not the instant success the Op claims This comment is weird and once again totally disregards the articles most important point, that Flash and other S-class player will probably pillage any game since they have that mentality and that work ethic. The creativity-jab is getting old btw, especially nowadays since ZvT in BW is changing A LOT thanks to very creative use of queens. So please, just face that SC2 is a sequal to BW. Same skills are used, same sort of people are gonna dominate in a year or two.
Nobody denies this.
They are arguing that the OP saying "all your current champs and tourneys are meaningless because scrubs are playing"
It's doesn't matter if the article didn't say it directly, it is definitely the tone.
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I'm glad there's finally an article from the BW perspective talking about how SC2 doesn't have a low skill ceiling.
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On May 12 2011 14:07 garlicface wrote:
Reading this article reminded me of what IdrA said recently. Something along the lines of, "I don't practice that much anymore". One of the top players in the game, and he doesn't even practice that much. We NEED better players, better practice schedules on just about every team, and overall just better competition. I don't want our top players to become bored with the game (like you said MVP mentioned).
maybe we just need a game that is more complex, that actually needs practice to play optimally?
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On May 13 2011 09:08 MildSeven wrote:
This article is pretty ignorant.
It fails to explain the anomalies of his 'theory' that is Nada, July, Boxer, and MVP.
Also, it makes a poor criticism of patching in Starcraft 2, as though patching destabilizes the game. Even brood war I argue could use patches to fix minor bugs or make ZvZ more enticing, etc if not for Blizzard developing team not caring about the older game in favour of developing the balance of newer games. The criticism on patches is stupid as hell basically, patches are there not just to balance, but to fix exploits, bugs etc instead of needing KESPA to tell players not to abuse a certain bug, etc.
The article also brings up certain quotes by players, that should only be taken contextually, but the author makes an effort to manipulate them to support his points.
One of the most compelling statistics I find in SC2 is the average age of the pro gamer and their success rate. For players like NaDa, July and BoxeR. They are well out of their prime age-wise and their results have been above average. There will always be exceptions to the rule; players like Fruitdealer and Nestea have held their own and won.
In BW, there is a reason why the pro teams scout players who are very young and have fast hands. The life expectancy of a pro gamer is short for various reasons: mandatory army service and the fact there are tons of younger players sitting in the wings with arguably more potential. Pros are expected to peak by the time they hit 18 (senior status on a roster). It can be all downhill from there (reflexes and processing start to get slower).
What does this prove? That SC2 isn't as demanding? No, I'm not trying to say that, although it certainly comes off that way. Game-play wise, we haven't seen enough or tried enough. Same sentiments as Intrigue in that regard. We 're already getting used to seeing the same shit over and over again with small alterations. The expansion pack should help players put more thought into their play. SC2 isn't a polished product and the game-play shows that. New timings should emerge and players need to get back to the drawing board.
Consequently, I think the work ethic from BW could benefit a lot of players. On the same note, I don't expect many big names to switch over for another two years. We might see a few less popular A-Class/B-Class BW players make the switch with free agency right around the corner. There are valid reasons for this. Many of these players fall into the senior category on their roster(s) and won't be able to get the money they want. They have no negotiation power. As a result, chances are high for them to make the move and give up their spots on the A-Team roster. The youngsters sitting in the wings who possibly have more potential will take their spots to fill the void and command smaller salaries. Plus, a lot of them should be hitting their prime.
Yes, the pastures are greener for SC2; unfortunately, I don't see any of the four pillars switching anytime soon. Sorry Intrigue and all those who want to see this happen. By the time they do, they'll be closing in on their mid-20's like those who went before them. As of right now, they have no money issues and if they did decide to switch I don't think it would be about the money at all.
BW and SC2 are separate markets and while I believe there is a very high correlation between the amount of RTS experience you have to your success in SC2... who is to say new Bonjwas won't emerge on their own and 'perfect' their own practice? I'll give the younger generation the benefit of the doubt. I think some 8 to 10 year old who never touched BW before is more than capable of having great success. Those who want it bad enough will find a way. I just really hate how much more luck is involved in the current state of the game. Hopefully the expansion can fix this somewhat.
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On May 13 2011 10:29 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 10:25 Slakter wrote:On May 13 2011 10:19 Kanuck wrote:
this is the worst TL article ever...... looks like TL is heading down hill...
the OP is foolishly comparing two game with very different histories.... so his "evidence" isnt wrong, its just his conclusion in false.
The meta game is alot newer in SC2... right now SC2 rewards critical thinking and creativity much more... so can switching from BW to SC2 give you a boost? sure, because your not facing people who are much less evolved in the meta game.
i personally would expect flash to be a very poor SC2 player at first, and with time would rise up... not the instant success the Op claims This comment is weird and once again totally disregards the articles most important point, that Flash and other S-class player will probably pillage any game since they have that mentality and that work ethic. The creativity-jab is getting old btw, especially nowadays since ZvT in BW is changing A LOT thanks to very creative use of queens. So please, just face that SC2 is a sequal to BW. Same skills are used, same sort of people are gonna dominate in a year or two. Nobody denies this. They are arguing that the OP saying "all your current champs and tourneys are meaningless because scrubs are playing" It's doesn't matter if the article didn't say it directly, it is definitely the tone.
No, that´s not at all what it´s saying. What it´s saying that the people who are winning at the moment are not gonna have that satisfaction if some A or S-class Brood War players start playing again. Nothing more, nothing less.
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When I read the part where it said BW burnouts are winning GSL while having a easy training routine, the first thing that came into my mind was:
"It's Starcraft II. You get better when you don't practice."
-IdrA
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On May 13 2011 10:31 atarianimo wrote:
I'm glad there's finally an article from the BW perspective talking about how SC2 doesn't have a low skill ceiling.
I know. I'm so conflicted on this article, because I agree with all the points except the idea that SC2 is currently a "farce", but that "farce" bit is massively inflammatory.
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My main problem with this article is not the conclusions, but the logic behind them. For example:
-Some guy from a BW team said Startale's practice style was less strict/structured than he was used to. Conclusion: all SC2 training houses have bad practice styles.
This just seems to be an unfounded generalization extrapolated from one house based on the words of one guy who explicitly said he wasn't calling their practice style "bad". The author assumes that strict, structured training is superior to more self-directed training. This is not necessarily true. Even if it was true, one can't say just based on that that this is a description of all SC2 pro houses.
-Slayers Min said something about his team practicing 30-40 games per day in addition to replay analysis in training for the team league tournament and attributed their win to practicing more than the other teams. What Min mentioned was an average amount of practice for a BW pro according to the article's author. Conclusion: SC2 pros don't practice as much as BW pros and -- you have to do to "rock the scene" in SC2 is practice the amount they practiced.
Did Min really have knowledge of how much each opposing team trained for each match? Does the author of the article really have statistics on how many practice games BW players play per day? Would any team with some talent simply take down the team league as long as they practiced 30-40 games per day? Or might there have been other factors involved aside from raw practice time? So many misleading assumptions seem to have somehow blossomed from one line of an interview response.
-MVP wants to focus on enjoying the game and not so much on achievments in SC2. Fruit Dealer wanted a more free practice regime. Conclusion: SC2 pros don't take the game seriously and don't train hard.
I think you are reading way too much into these little interview snippets. I'd have interpreted that as MVP having a positive mindset and not necessarily training less, just caring less about trophy hunting. As for Fruit Dealer, a "free" practice style does not mean less practice or even less effective practice necessarily. I think what works best would tend to depend on the individual.
-Finally, the article states its main point being that there are 300 BW players who could dominate SC2 at any moment if they made the switch.
I do agree, of course, that Flash, Jaedong and Bisu are the best RTSers in the world right now and could be the best SC2 players in the world if they went that direction. Change that to 300 pros and semi pros who could dominate SC2 instantly, though, and it sounds ridiculous. Where does that number come from and how is it justified?
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Logic of the internal arguments aside... Featuring this article on the main page -- I mean... It does contain some interesting information and obviously some effort went into it, but it appears to me to be a non-constructive argument about why SC2 is a joke of an e-sport and its players don't work hard (the later based on a few vague interview responses). I'm not offended or whatever, but for a site hosting an awesome SC2 tournament, sporting a fine SC2 team and just doing a lot for the promotion of SC2 as an e-sport, it seems really weird that TL would want to help spread the message that SC2 is essentially worthless as an e-sport.
It's not my site, though, so I can't complain too much.
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EPT
