EPTSnOw's ASL S20 Finals Review
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jinjin5000
United States1456 Posts
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goody153
44228 Posts
Also curious what are the builds he planned if he got the right spawn in each maps in the finals As always thanks for this Jinjin | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
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vndestiny
Singapore3441 Posts
i.e. Roaring Currents, what build can work only in top right but not bottom left? | ||
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G5
United States2918 Posts
On October 31 2025 00:43 sas.Sziky wrote: Jinjin saved the foreigner world in SC thanks man! But i am not sure Snow knows better than tl.net heroes so i am confused now someone can say for me what is imba now ? No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players and that's why they have done so poorly against Zerg players over 20+ years. Makes total sense. I hope these tl.net heroes can finally STFU about imbalances and listen to SnOw who said he lost because he played poorly and there's no other reason than that (as he goes out to another Zerg in ASL and said he lost to basically every pro-Zerg in the scene during practice). All sarcasm aside, PvZ is clearly a winnable match up (as all MUs are) but to argue against Zerg having any sort of advantage in ZvP means you're either blind or you're being insincere IMO. It's like saying P doesn't have an advantage against T when that clearly isn't the case. Admitting that doesn't mean that imba is the reason people usually lose but to not admit clearly visible slight advantages in a MU is a weird stance to take by anyone. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On October 31 2025 01:20 G5 wrote: No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players and that's why they have done so poorly against Zerg players over 20+ years. Makes total sense. I hope these tl.net heroes can finally STFU about imbalances and listen to SnOw who said he lost because he played poorly and there's no other reason than that (as he goes out to another Zerg in ASL and said he lost to basically every pro-Zerg in the scene during practice). All sarcasm aside, PvZ is clearly a winnable match up (as all MUs are) but to argue against Zerg having any sort of advantage in ZvP means you're either blind or you're being insincere IMO. It's like saying P doesn't have an advantage against T when that clearly isn't the case. Admitting that doesn't mean that imba is the reason people usually lose but to not admit clearly visible slight advantages in a MU is a weird stance to take by anyone. why u cant agree with players who is better than you ? well big different between you and me: i will not talking about Pro level ( because i am not here on pro level i cant clearly understand what is imba there or what is not ) i can say around my level but because there are many better zerg than me then i cant talk about balance. How u think u already can understand pro level its so insane for me sorry  + i remember the reason why and when u started to talking about balance and was disrespecting so please man :Dand btw dont said what i am dont said '' No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players'' why u said this ? | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
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G5
United States2918 Posts
On October 31 2025 01:33 sas.Sziky wrote: why u cant agree with players who is better than you ? well big different between you and me: i will not talking about Pro level ( because i am not here on pro level i cant clearly understand what is imba there or what is not ) i can say around my level but because there are many better zerg than me then i cant talk about balance. How u think u already can understand pro level its so insane for me sorry + i remember the reason why and when u started to talking about balance and was disrespecting so please man :Dand btw dont said what i am dont said '' No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players'' why u said this ? Sziky, you saying "why u cant agree with players who is better than you?" is not well thought out. I could say similar shit to you. You are aware Stork said PvZ is super imbalanced and Protoss' have basically given up trying to beat Zerg right? He's way better than you. Are you going to listen to him? Probably not. We all have our own opinions and just because someone is better than us doesn't mean their right. You and I both disagree on stuff but we're both better than at least half the people on this forum. Should they all listen to us? Of course not cuss at least one of us is wrong. Come on man, that's just a take that you really didn't think through. Also, if you're talking about your level and not pro level, why are you even commenting about balance here. This is a video of a professional Protoss player discussing his experience in the finals of the top tournament in the world. Obviously we're discussing pro stuff here and in ASL threads. In regards to the "dont said what i am dont said", listen, I know English is your second language (no hate, only respect for knowing an additional language), so I'm guessing you don't know sarcasm well in this language. So, perhaps I shouldn't have littered my statement with so much of it. But that is sarcasm. But whatever dude, if you wanna go around defending ZvP balance, have at it. As I said before though, I think you'd have to either be blind or insincere to not admit clear slight advantages in a match up. I think you know this game well and I don't think you're dumb at all, so I think you're quite simply being insincere. With all that said, I don't hate you or dislike you dude. I disagree with a ton of the shit you post, as I'm sure you do with me, but honestly, no personal hate whatsoever. Please don't think that, ever. I wish you the best, always. | ||
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zelevin
United States296 Posts
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On October 31 2025 02:20 G5 wrote: Sziky, you saying "why u cant agree with players who is better than you?" is not well thought out. I could say similar shit to you. You are aware Stork said PvZ is super imbalanced and Protoss' have basically given up trying to beat Zerg right? He's way better than you. Are you going to listen to him? Probably not. We all have our own opinions and just because someone is better than us doesn't mean their right. You and I both disagree on stuff but we're both better than at least half the people on this forum. Should they all listen to us? Of course not cuss at least one of us is wrong. Come on man, that's just a take that you really didn't think through. Also, if you're talking about your level and not pro level, why are you even commenting about balance here. This is a video of a professional Protoss player discussing his experience in the finals of the top tournament in the world. Obviously we're discussing pro stuff here and in ASL threads. In regards to the "dont said what i am dont said", listen, I know English is your second language (no hate, only respect for knowing an additional language), so I'm guessing you don't know sarcasm well in this language. So, perhaps I shouldn't have littered my statement with so much of it. But that is sarcasm. But whatever dude, if you wanna go around defending ZvP balance, have at it. As I said before though, I think you'd have to either be blind or insincere to not admit clear slight advantages in a match up. I think you know this game well and I don't think you're dumb at all, so I think you're quite simply being insincere. With all that said, I don't hate you or dislike you dude. I disagree with a ton of the shit you post, as I'm sure you do with me, but honestly, no personal hate whatsoever. Please don't think that, ever. I wish you the best, always. i agree with Stork. Just i agree with Jaedong too ''fuck protoss'' i agree with Soulkey,GGameo,Calm too ( see the video pls ) i aggree with Flash, Jaedong ( skill is everything ) i agree with Mini ( was an interview when he won ASL not avilable anymore idk why ) he said basically skill is everything i agree with Snow right now So what man ? u have only Stork it is not enough. '' I think you're quite simply being insincere'' i am the one of the most honestly guy in the sc scene ( maybe i am an idiot i can agree if u say this but you cant say '' I think you're quite simply being insincere.'' ) so f...ck its the end of you and me. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1598 Posts
I guess I'm one of the few who actually prefers to play vs 973 than vs standard 3 hatch spire into 6 hatch hydra. | ||
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TMNT
3016 Posts
Take this example: if your race starts with 3 workers, surely the matchup is not balanced. But through skills (or rather, the skill gap between you and your opponent) you can still overcome the imbalance and win. That's the mindset progamers are taught. If you ask them they will never say "I won/lost this because my race is too strong/weak". That's what Snow repeatedly says in the video . But imbalances do exist in isolation, and it is affected by maps. Think about it: if there's not any, then why would mapmakers sit down with progamers to create Vermeer, then Radeon? In the same video in which Flash argues about no Protoss bonjwa with his chat, he indirectly acknowledges imbalance (without realizing it): ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8cgZeak.png) I mean, this right here, what can it possibly mean other than saying Terran is OP on those maps. | ||
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G5
United States2918 Posts
On October 31 2025 03:46 EndingLife wrote: Do the majority of protoss players really think PvZ is harder than PvT? If so, is it mostly because of 973? I guess I'm one of the few who actually prefers to play vs 973 than vs standard 3 hatch spire into 6 hatch hydra. Yeah, I think the majority of Protoss players think PvZ is harder than PvT. Modern PvT has gotten harder than it used to be but I think players still struggle with PvZ more, especially at higher levels. When you hit around 2300-2400ish MMR, Zergs really start to understand how to abuse the shit out of Protoss in the early / early mid-game really well. There are simply much more options for Zerg against Protoss than Terran against Protoss. It's easier to scout in PvT and there's less builds you have to account for. I think that's the main reason PvT is easier. Also, there are more cheeses available for Protoss against Terran than against Zerg and TvP cheeses are nearly non-existent. Terrans probably have the smallest number of cheese builds available to them against Protoss amongst any match up. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3413 Posts
On October 31 2025 01:20 G5 wrote: No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players and that's why they have done so poorly against Zerg players over 20+ years. Makes total sense. I hope these tl.net heroes can finally STFU about imbalances and listen to SnOw who said he lost because he played poorly and there's no other reason than that (as he goes out to another Zerg in ASL and said he lost to basically every pro-Zerg in the scene during practice). All sarcasm aside, PvZ is clearly a winnable match up (as all MUs are) but to argue against Zerg having any sort of advantage in ZvP means you're either blind or you're being insincere IMO. It's like saying P doesn't have an advantage against T when that clearly isn't the case. Admitting that doesn't mean that imba is the reason people usually lose but to not admit clearly visible slight advantages in a MU is a weird stance to take by anyone. Interesting in light of research such as https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/642349-ladder-map-matchup-stats | ||
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TMNT
3016 Posts
On October 31 2025 04:26 sas.Sziky wrote: Map things of course exist and thats yes can be good or bad and we can call balance, unbalanced its right i never said this is not exist. '' In the same video in which Flash argues about no Protoss bonjwa with his chat, he indirectly acknowledges imbalance (without realizing it) '' it is how ? he said '' FlaSh Explains Why There is No Protoss Bonjwas '': ''' Protoss not having any bonjwas ? '' '' it cant be helped '' '' thats just skill issue '' ok so it not means skill issue? i dont really understand. Did you not read what I wrote? It's right there in the screentshot, isn't it? He acknowledged that Terran is OP on those maps. So if BW is only played on those maps, Terran is imba. Do you agree. If yes then we're going somewhere. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary316 Posts
On October 31 2025 04:56 TMNT wrote: Did you not read what I wrote? It's right there in the screentshot, isn't it? He acknowledged that Terran is OP on those maps. So if BW is only played on those maps, Terran is imba. Do you agree. If yes then we're going somewhere. ah ya now you are right, sorry. G5 is right my english still shit  | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13291 Posts
Again, it can be both true that there are balance issues in PvZ and that Soma was better than Snow in the final. The better player won on the day and Snow is straight up saying this here. | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5520 Posts
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Kraekkling
534 Posts
its like, if I get lucky and spawn there and my opponent also spawns on the right spawn, I do this cheese if not, I play standard | ||
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