On October 31 2025 00:43 sas.Sziky wrote:
Jinjin saved the foreigner world in SC thanks man! But i am not sure Snow knows better than tl.net heroes so i am confused now someone can say for me what is imba now ?

No, you're right. ZvP = 100% totally balanced with no advantage one way or the other. All Protoss players are just absolute bumbling morons compared to these genius-level Zerg players and that's why they have done so poorly against Zerg players over 20+ years. Makes total sense. I hope these tl.net heroes can finally STFU about imbalances and listen to SnOw who said he lost because he played poorly and there's no other reason than that (as he goes out to another Zerg in ASL and said he lost to basically every pro-Zerg in the scene during practice).

All sarcasm aside, PvZ is clearly a winnable match up (as all MUs are) but to argue against Zerg having any sort of advantage in ZvP means you're either blind or you're being insincere IMO. It's like saying P doesn't have an advantage against T when that clearly isn't the case. Admitting that doesn't mean that imba is the reason people usually lose but to not admit clearly visible slight advantages in a MU is a weird stance to take by anyone.

well stats from the ladder suggest t>p is actually the case, and life time stats from the pro scene have protoss only a hair more advantaged than Terran but worse in big series like finals etc. So yeah I donno how much we can rely either on data or received wisdom because frankly they often go in different directions.

Finals data is not a fair nor accurate representation of balance. Finals for TvP are heavily skewered by Flash and Light for example. Then we have Round of 8 data also hewvily skewered by FlaSh and Light who tend to win if they are vs protoss in the round of 8. beside them two we have Sharp with 2 vs toss set wins, last with 2, Sea with 1, Barracks with 1, and Mind with 1. that is 7 vs toss set wins. Flash and Light total for more vs toss set wins than that. Whenever other terrans make it they tend to lose vs Protoss.

We also have season 13 where zerg won no best of set vs a protoss in ro8. Rain 3 vs 2 soulkey. then Rain 4 vs 2 soma. and then third place match Bisu 3 vs 2 Soma. And in ASL 12 Mini dumpestered Queen 4-1
and ASL 11 Mini also dumpstered Queen 4-1.

But if we look just at the finals for those three seasons we only get the 3-4 loss of Mini vs Larva. That is 5 protoss set wins and 1 zerg set win. Yet we only use that one zerg set win in our data?

My whole point was that we cant rely on data and received wisdom and you come back to complain that the data I used isnt reliable enough to draw conclusions from. The fuck guy?

my bad

Abjurer

Sweden210 Posts

November 03 2025 13:27 GMT

#42

Thanks Jinjin!

goody153

44236 Posts

November 03 2025 16:19 GMT

#43

On October 31 2025 09:24 jimminy_kriket wrote:
Imagine preparing for a finals and only preparing builds that worked on half the map. He fucking deserved to lose if that's true.

He'd still do better than any of your geniune attempts and theorycrafting will ever be. Both practice, theorycrafting and tournament participation you'll be always be worse than any attempts by snow will ever be

Timebon3s

Norway751 Posts

November 04 2025 20:50 GMT

#44

So what though? The criticism is still valid. Why would you not prepare for more? It’s not like they didn’t have enough time to prepare, or am I missing something here?

CHEONSOYUN

561 Posts

November 05 2025 01:05 GMT

#45

On November 05 2025 05:50 Timebon3s wrote:
So what though? The criticism is still valid. Why would you not prepare for more? It’s not like they didn’t have enough time to prepare, or am I missing something here?

if it was a pvt finals he probably would have had a full preparation for each map

it sounds like he was struggling just to play the matchup in practice

TMNT

3098 Posts

November 05 2025 07:31 GMT

#46

I honestly don't know how you guys read his comment as such. It obviously means "if I spawn in this location and my opponent spawns in that location, then this specific build will work better so I will do it". If not he will play "standard" and make decisions based on the information obtained, just like every other PvZ game.

What do you mean "builds that only work on half the map"? That other builds on that map will automatically fail?

Most of the times you see (in players' post match interview) that they just "invent" builds on the spot (open standard then make a decision based on scouting info), or depending on the previous games. Unless it's something very specific, like going 2 Gate, going Corsair Reaver, or destroying the gas on Death Valley, or proxy Hatch on Death Valley (last season).

You can even tell from Soma's play that he doesn't have specific builds on each location either. Most games during the finals and semis he just went Spire and Den after 3 Hatches and decided where to go from there based on state of the games.

Uldridge

Belgium4974 Posts

November 05 2025 09:24 GMT

#47

Because people don't understand the deep understanding these pro's have of the game - like a top level grandmaster in chess - they try to map their understanding of their gameflow onto how they would play but it's a completely different approach and language they're talking about.
It's the difference between a child's understanding of 2+2 versus that of a mathematica professor.

Peeano

Netherlands5195 Posts

November 05 2025 10:10 GMT

#48

It's as simple as: "If I have to play standard I most likely won't win the game, so let me prepare some great builds that only work in that one particular spawn." It's basically gambling. It's saying you can't beat your opponent. There is at least a confidence issue there and it contradicts the part where he says momentum is very important in a series.

If playing standard is the right choice most of the time, then why bother prepping funky builds when you can spend your time on honing your standard play instead? Spending time on your funky builds will make your standard play weaker as a result. Prepping a funky build would be totally fine IF spawniing location was not a key factor. Snow was counting on getting lucky.

And what's the point in talking to Royal and JyJ? Getting a winner's mindset? "Let me gamble with a winner's mindset, that will surely increase my chances."
Maybe Snow did more, maybe Snow did talk to Mini/Bisu/Best as well, but why wouldn't he mention that? He doesn't want to embarass his Protoss brothers after a defeat? I'd rather not speculate on whatever he didn't say.

I'm still convinced his prep was shit based on his story and showing.

RJBTVYOUTUBE

Netherlands1053 Posts

November 05 2025 16:15 GMT

#49

On November 05 2025 16:31 TMNT wrote:
I honestly don't know how you guys read his comment as such. It obviously means "if I spawn in this location and my opponent spawns in that location, then this specific build will work better so I will do it". If not he will play "standard" and make decisions based on the information obtained, just like every other PvZ game.

What do you mean "builds that only work on half the map"? That other builds on that map will automatically fail?

Most of the times you see (in players' post match interview) that they just "invent" builds on the spot (open standard then make a decision based on scouting info), or depending on the previous games. Unless it's something very specific, like going 2 Gate, going Corsair Reaver, or destroying the gas on Death Valley, or proxy Hatch on Death Valley (last season).

You can even tell from Soma's play that he doesn't have specific builds on each location either. Most games during the finals and semis he just went Spire and Den after 3 Hatches and decided where to go from there based on state of the games.

Soma said he was actually super optimized and specific with his build order of choice. he spent a lot of time perfecting it in practice. he went deep into flowcharting to get his builds to be as effective as possible. But it did end up being the same build over and over pretty much every game. It is just that well optimized.

marshallfaulk

2 Posts

November 15 2025 16:22 GMT

#50

Can I just say, this idea that snow's problem was poor optimization is either naive or dumb. The reason snow lost is that he went early nexus 6 games in a row. You can't play pvz and never apply early pressure. You just let them do whatever they want and never have to fear you'll rush. Bisu, best, and most predominantly mini, all incorporate rushes and mix up their play. Snow plays the same predictable style every game which is good enough to beat most zergs, but not the soulkey's or the soma's.

Please, anybody saying it's his optimization is the problem is just being short sighted.

marshallfaulk

2 Posts

November 15 2025 16:30 GMT

#51

He actually did proxy gate in the kcm vs hero yesterday, so it seems like he gets it. It's not about optimization, that's really a crazy idea. You don't get to that level if you don't have good optimization. That's a prerequisite.

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