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If you wanted a discussion around BW pros transferring, why do this? Why add the condescension and dismissal of the current SC2 pros. It doesn't help your point. It pushes people away from BW as it incites SC2 players to protect "their" turf. It paints BW as this elitist sport that SC2 will never be until the BW gods deem it sufficient of their attention.
I don't think the article does that at all, he makes it very clear it is just about the money. Top BW players get paid too much to switch, lower tier korean pros thought they could make more by switching. The whole, "If the top BW players switched over they would dominate SC2" angle is the part of the article I think is kind of stupid. Yes all evidence so far points to that being a definite possibility, but what is the point of talking about it again, this subject has been treaded and retreaded hundreds of times in the past year. Either they switch and we see how they do, or they don't and it is a moot point.
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On May 13 2011 11:04 Zooper31 wrote:
Love the article and I agree on basically every issue. We have seen absolutely nothing in terms of what SC2 skill really is until we get the legit code S BW players rocking the scene.
The interesting thing is that we never will. Flash will never switch to Starcraft 2 (where he's expected to succeed, but what if he doesn't) when he's making 250k salary and winning tournaments in BW. The first Starcraft 2 Bonjwa will be someone no one's heard of yet. And once he does, SC2 vs BW threads will dovetail into Flash vs Bonjwakid threads, because they'll never both play each other at their prime (except maybe, MAYBE as some kind of showmatch charity event thing if SC2 keeps growing). It'll honestly be kind of cool when that happens, though.
My psychic prediction is that the first SC2 bonjwa will reign at the same time as the sixth BW bonjwa (that is, when Flash is old and washed up, the guy after him). I don't expect him soon.
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On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy.
Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010.
...
If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here.
Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people.
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This is not worth the time and nothing else, SC:BW and SC2 are DIFERENT GAMES, very related but never ever the same, SC2 scene is not a Farce, its what it is, we must stop trying to get SC:BW in SC2, all they have the same posibilities Pros, A-Class, S-Class, Flash, Jaedong, all can be what they want, and THEY ARE WHAT THEY WANT, stop comparison it is not worth at all. Dreams vs Reality? its a joke, not comparables.
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On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people.
A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone.
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They will not be 380428042 times better than the current SC2 pros... It will literally be impossible. Take it from me when these players you guys are worshipping switch over.
I've been witness to many competitive games and their second editions. There will be no clear domination as they are already late in playing SC2 anyway. There weren't even that many Americans or Europeans competing in sc1 in relation to sc2.
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What difference does this make? Who cares? This seems to me the posting of a disgruntled elitist. You might as well be arguing the case of orange juice over apple juice because apple juice just doesn't have as much vitamin C.
You claim that SC2 competition is a farce, an insult to all SC2 players who watch, compete in, or just plain enjoy the game. All of the things you list to discredit SC2 are hollow and without any foundation, in other words, your argument is a completely hypothetical one.
And even if it were true, what difference does the fact that if Jaedong switched over to SC2 he would dominate make? Isn't that the point of a tournament?
You word your argument like these facts are supporting evidence that SC2 comptetion is a farce but there's no bridge of logic here, other than "SC2 isn't as big as BW, therefore it sucks." Did you expect an instant migration?
Using your football analogy, what happens if there's a new football game that comes out? Not one with all the complicated penalties that keep your everyday football layman from understanding the game, but a simplified version. As a NEW fan looking at both, which would you want to jump into and follow?
The future of Starcraft is SC2. You're insulting the people wise enough or lucky enough to jump on the boat when it first sets sail. It's not a big, expensive boat, but you know what, it's got better graphics and is easier to understand. Wait, I think I lost my analogy there, but you get the idea.
I had faith in TL, but it's being shattered now. I have no idea why something so ridiculous would be allowed to be placed on the main page. I loved the community because you were so accepting, but my infrequent visits seem to be justified by this post of somebody pointing and laughing at the kid brother of Starcraft because he's in the shadow of BW. There's no point to your post other than a long-winded BW IS BETTAR. Yes, I realize the hypocrisy, having posted a long-winded comment, but my intentions are to defend SC's kid brother while you mock it for what it isn't, when so many of us love it for what it is.
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On May 13 2011 11:18 TheOne85 wrote:
There weren't even that many Americans or Europeans competing in sc1 in relation to sc2.
that's cuz they gave up.
On May 13 2011 11:18 MeedleyMee wrote:
I loved the community because you were so accepting, but my infrequent visits seem to be justified by this post of somebody pointing and laughing at the kid brother of Starcraft because he's in the shadow of BW. There's no point to your post other than a long-winded BW IS BETTAR. Yes, I realize the hypocrisy, having posted a long-winded comment, but my intentions are to defend SC's kid brother while you mock it for what it isn't, when so many of us love it for what it is.
let me help you out with this analogy just a bit. Pretend your parents come to you one day and say, you're going to have a baby brother!! Then they lock you in a closet. Then, after the baby is born and people keep asking about you, they offer a 100 dollars for people to play and talk with the baby.
That's how many BW community members felt from SC2 -- the no LAN, the lawsuits, the ridiculous advertising here in Korea. The 180 dollars for a game thing. No battlenet. It's like blizzard said, OUR NEW BABY IS GOING TO BE AWESOME and then tried to blackmail us with it.
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A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad.
Why the hell is it sad? SC2 brought more people to the community, even if a very small percentage of those new people were exposed through SC2 to the SC:BW pro scene it is still more people than knew about it before. Saying it is "sad" is an elitist attitude, some of the people in these threads who didn't know squat about broodwar may have even been in elementary school when the game came out or just weren't into RTS games until a friend showed them SC2.
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On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone.
Well, to be fair they don't have to. I love BW and all but I don't expect people who just joined to the SC2 scene and maybe this is their 1st RTS to know whats up with the BW scene.Just like I can't really expect for kids who started gaming with the 360 to know how the NES and SNES was awesome. Its sad but the fact that someone likes SC2 doesn't oblige them to know their BW. And expecting that is just (and sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone) a useless elitist attitude.
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When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what?
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I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant.
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On May 13 2011 11:25 Sideburn wrote:
When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what?
see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world.
Clever approach though.
On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant.
11 years of evidence says otherwise.
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On May 13 2011 11:11 d_so wrote:
1.) The two games are similar to the point that skills are, to an extent, transferable to one another
2.) One of the two games (BW) appears to have vastly superior players.
3.) If #2 is true (and it's debatable), then the SC2 players are playing amongst and against inferior competition.
The ramifications of #3 are unsettling. Inferior players are getting paid big bucks to play other inferior players. Also, they appear (as argued by the OP), to not be working as hard as they should be. This is why it feels like a farce.
They are inferior at BW. Right now they are superior at SC2. What you're talking about is them being inferior to how good someone potentially could be if they actually played the game. Describing that as a farce is absurd. You can't force people to play the game... the best starcraft 2 players will be the best players who actually choose to play starcraft 2 (i.e. the same as any game).
While it may be the case that SC2 pros are not working hard, the evidence for this suggestion provided by the OP was pretty laughable, as I attempted to explain earlier.
There's nothing in this OP that talks about the superiority of the gameplay of one over the other. People have mistaken it that way because they refuse to read.
Mostly correct, however, this was stated in the article in passing:
There is arguably less luck involved too, since build order wins and easy-to-control-and-make 1a deathballs exist on a much smaller and more understood scale
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51710 Posts
On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant.
But foreginers will never stand a chance against Korean pros in BW.
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There is arguably less luck involved too, since build order wins and easy-to-control-and-make 1a deathballs exist on a much smaller and more understood scale
So I assume one year after Starcraft (not BW even, we haven't had an expansion yet) came out this logic held for that game as well? I don't know how the author can possibly talk about luck or strategy differences when one game has been out since 1998 and the other one is not even yet one year old.
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It's a decent article, but I'm left wondering at it's purpose. Is he trying to discourage people from playing SC2, since the best of BW aren't playing it? Should we just cancel all the new tourneys, and tell the sponsors to keep their prize money? I don't see how this article has any productive outcome for eSports or SC2. Am I missing something here?
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On May 13 2011 11:27 Sky Net wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:11 d_so wrote:
1.) The two games are similar to the point that skills are, to an extent, transferable to one another
2.) One of the two games (BW) appears to have vastly superior players.
3.) If #2 is true (and it's debatable), then the SC2 players are playing amongst and against inferior competition.
The ramifications of #3 are unsettling. Inferior players are getting paid big bucks to play other inferior players. Also, they appear (as argued by the OP), to not be working as hard as they should be. This is why it feels like a farce. They are inferior at BW. Right now they are superior at SC2. What you're talking about is them being inferior to how good someone potentially could be if they actually played the game. Describing that as a farce is absurd. You can't force people to play the game... the best starcraft 2 players will be the best players who actually choose to play starcraft 2 (i.e. the same as any game). While it may be the case that SC2 pros are not working hard, the evidence for this suggestion provided by the OP was pretty laughable, as I attempted to explain earlier. Show nested quote +There's nothing in this OP that talks about the superiority of the gameplay of one over the other. People have mistaken it that way because they refuse to read. Mostly correct, however, this was stated in the article in passing: Show nested quote +There is arguably less luck involved too, since build order wins and easy-to-control-and-make 1a deathballs exist on a much smaller and more understood scale
nah, you're skipping over premise 1 though. While everyone is going in apoplexy arguing BW or SC2 is better than one or the other, premise 1 argues that both games are similar to the point that skills are transferable. So the OP is not giving credence to the uniqueness of sc2. That's the entire premise that the "current stars were bad at BW" argument.
also: luck doesn't necessarily equate to superiority or inferiority. After all, one thing BW fans love about BW is high ground miss chance, or luck.
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On May 13 2011 11:24 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:18 Hinanawi wrote:On May 13 2011 11:13 teamsolid wrote:On May 13 2011 11:08 aimaimaim wrote:
Just so you guys know, TL isn't your fruity little club for SC2. Regardless of how many people came for SC2, before that, TL.net was just doing fine and dandy. Really? Says the guy who joined TL in 2010. ... If posts like these don't get warnings, then there's a real bias here. Personally, I think the article is mostly accurate, although somewhat exaggerated. However, I honestly don't see how the article brought up an "elephant in the room". I think most people who watch SC2 haven't even considered what the OP brought up until this article was written. An "elephant in the room" is when everyone knows full well something, but willfully decide to ignore it, which is hardly the case here for most people. A lot of people who watch SC2 don't even know who Flash and Jaedong are, and that's just sad. They should. My jaw nearly hit the floor in that "MC says that Flash would do well in SC2' thread. Oh really, IrOn is saying that Flash is good? For realzies? It's the fucking Twilight Zone. Well, to be fair they don't have to. I love BW and all but I don't expect people who just joined to the SC2 scene and maybe this is their 1st RTS to know whats up with the BW scene.Just like I can't really expect for kids who started gaming with the 360 to know how the NES and SNES was awesome. Its sad but the fact that someone likes SC2 doesn't oblige them to know their BW. And expecting that is just (and sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone) a useless elitist attitude.
Well then we've certainly seen one thing, and that's this generation isn't very humble and is incredibly naive. Sure no one expects you to know everything about sc1 if you just started, but then you really shouldn't be running around going "nah this different game flash wouldn't be good lolz" . Really ticks some people off. Know your place.
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On May 13 2011 11:27 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:25 Sideburn wrote:
When you consider that the pro BW scene is so incredibly incredibly tiny compared to something like, say, the pro soccer scene... well, it could be argued that there are likely a large number of people all over the world that could walk into BW and dominate after a few months of practice. This totally cheapens BW for me. Watching Flash and Jaedong just isn't the same when I know there are people out there who could beat them but aren't.
Wait, what? see, the reason why you're wrong is cuz everyone DID try. and failed. Flash and Jaedong are the evolution of Koreans first dominating the world and then cannibalizing each other. They represent an untouchable divide not just between current bonjwa/former bonjwa and Pro/Amateur, but also Korea vs the rest of the world. Clever approach though. Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 11:26 BoxersGosuGarden wrote:
I'd also like to point out that SCBW can hardly be called an international e-Sport anymore. People who say that the reason the SCBW washouts switched was because SC2 is "more fun" (assuming easier) is biased. The competition is getting bigger definitely; with all the international events. As Artosis and Tasteless pointed out, foreign gamers are all very talented, it's just that they never got the opportunity to play SCBW as the Koreans did. Saying that SCBW pros are better than SC2 pros is like saying that foreigners will never stand a chance against Koreans in SCBW, and that is just ignorant. 11 years of evidence says otherwise.
But foreginers will never stand a chance against Korean pros in BW.
Again; biased. In the beginning of SC and SCBW, everyone started in a level playing field. The Koreans was obviously the first to make it a "sport". Thus, the rest of the world who wanted to participate in this movement had to catch up. Can you call someone who had the opportunity to train specifically for a particular game "better" than someone who couldn't?
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EPT
