What happened to TvZ on Retro?

On November 14 2025 17:29 Uldridge wrote:
How does fighting spirit have less games played than a newer map?

On November 14 2025 20:25 Kraekkling wrote:
That's a good question, I was wondering the same. Retro used to be special insofar as it looked to be very close to 50% WR in TvZ during the first couple hundred games. The map is overall so standard that it would be surprising that Terrans took so long to "figure things out".

A rather boring explanation could be that we observed a statistical fluctuation during the first couple of hundreds games.

Basically, if something has a probability of 10% to happen (the statistical outlier) and one looks at roughly ~10 events (10 maps), it should happen ~1 time.

On November 15 2025 00:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
While Retro is similar to FS it plays extremely different. Most of the time you are attacking via expansions at 12 and 6 and mid left etc depending on positions. That makes it more difficult to attack on FS. While terran can also control mid easily. Is also way easier to stop counter attacks on retro compared to FS. On FS there are mutliple pathways that you can use to trick your opponent and abuse mobility. Take in cosideration too that on Retro the mains are exposed to the outside ground instantly compared to FS that there is a barrier of ground then the outside ground. That makes it harder for zerg to hold dropships too. I think it just a combination of factors that make it harder for zvt.

On November 14 2025 20:25 Kraekkling wrote:
That's a good question, I was wondering the same. Retro used to be special insofar as it looked to be very close to 50% WR in TvZ during the first couple hundred games. The map is overall so standard that it would be surprising that Terrans took so long to "figure things out".

A rather boring explanation could be that we observed a statistical fluctuation during the first couple of hundreds games.

Basically, if something has a probability of 10% to happen (the statistical outlier) and one looks at roughly ~10 events (10 maps), it should happen ~1 time.

On November 24 2025 15:09 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
compared to other maps like FS/polypoid/metropolis, retro has no high ground in the middle of the map that mutalisks can use to help whittle against MM. MM inherently beats mutalisks in a straight up fight, zerg needs to whittle away at an MM army picking off stray marines before it can beat it, and cliffs in the middle of the map really helps you whittle down terran army as they travel to your base to attack.

FS's middle cliffs surrounding the middle expo, and polypoid/metropolis' high-ground cliffs outside of your natural provide that for zerg, in contrast retro's middle is just water which even though is impassable by ground, it doesn't help even out the 2-tile range difference between mutalisks and marines, doesn't sound like a lot but marines with range are 166.67% the range of mutalisks, with 130-150% the DPS of mutalisks

IIRC in testing, 3:00's water outside the natural is so bad that even non-ranged marines can hit an overlord no matter where you put it. if the water areas were all turned into high ground (or even just half) it would help overlords and mutalisks immensely. the inner asphalt-tile circle in the middle of the map could also use some of the smaller 1-tile cliffs like the ones outside the nat in vermeer/radeon

On November 24 2025 19:32 Kanzzer wrote:


Thanks for the detailed knowledge. Do you think ZvT is tougher on Retro than on Vermeer?