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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 31 2012 11:28 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 31 2012 04:33 Live2Win wrote:On May 31 2012 01:46 Uncultured wrote:On May 30 2012 23:16 Live2Win wrote:On May 30 2012 13:31 Sprungjeezy wrote:On May 30 2012 12:58 Tewks44 wrote:On May 30 2012 12:17 BlindKill wrote:Robb,Jon and Theon are just bad. They are only as powerful as their liegelords/army. I'd say the power rankings should have these people: Brienne Loras Tyrell Barristan Selmy Jaime Lannister Clegane brothers Robert ( He did beat the Dragon Prince Rhaegar ) Drogo Bronn ( Killed Ser Vardis Egen, champion of Vale of Arryn) Syrio Forel Ned (his past is very badass) http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/05/29/game-of-thrones-new-season-3-characters-revealed/We get to meet the Tully family :D I'd say Barristan Selmy or Sandor Clegane is probably the best, but you gotta give Jaime a hand, too In my opinion: Garlan Tyrell (Loras' brother) Barristan the Badass (in his prime and now) Jaime (in his prime) Bronn Syrio Robert (in his prime) Ned (in his prime) Brienne Uhhh... let's not make up nicknames for warriors... Barristan the BOLD is called that from the books, among couple of other names "Barristan the Old, Ser Grandfather, etc". Barristan the badass is not a name used for the great Barristan Selmy Calm down there quick-draw. We can call characters anything we want. Barristan the Badass is very fitting imo. Barristan the Beaming Beacon of Badassness is better though. nonononono it's all wrong! I like it. It's a good way to remember their names. Am I being too anal?
ya, kinda
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I don't really thinks Starks are dumb but instead don't operate well in the south when all the rules they expect change on them suddenly. I think it has been a theme in the story and lore that when a Stark goes south that things eventually go poorly for them.
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On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:On May 30 2012 02:25 Bleak wrote:Finally we were able to watch a good episode this season. + Show Spoiler +I didn't get why they didn't have more wildfire barrels. That warehouse the old alchemist showed Tyrion was full of that shit. That small boat wouldn't hold enough of it to completely deplete the reserves. I expected them to hurl the barrels with catapults toward the fleet and soldiers, but was disappointed to see that didn't happen. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, the rest of the episodes so far would have been unwatchable for me. I hope this episode means things will pick up the pace now and we'll watch quality episodes. In that case i don't think that GOT is for you I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark.
Dont forget Lady Stark, she is just as stupid as her son.
1) Starts the war before the Starks are ready, while her husband is thousands miles away from his troops in the heartland of their sworn enemy to capture a dwarf who (a) is hated by his father and thus not worth much as a hostage (b) is hated by everyone else in family Lanister except Jamie and thus never had any important jobs. And sure eventually we see that the Imp is actually the smartest Lanister of them all and proves a valuable member of his family but at the time that Lady Stark has him kidnapped he was just a hated younger son. In return for kidnapping him she causes the capture of her two daughters and the best leader the North has.
2) Frees the beloved son and best fighter, if not strategist, of the enemy in exchange for 2 worthless girls [obviously Arya is actually pretty awesome but Lady Stark doesnt know this, to her they are just to girls who at best might be married off to the Arye and Dorne and whatever kingdom the gay knight and his sister are from to seal alliances but for all intents and purposes in Westeros women are useless]
3) Realizes that her derp son is about to throw away the Frey alliance for some medic foreigner, too stupid to remind Robb that when his father had to, he married for the good of the kingdom and not just his own selfish derp needs.
4) Doesnt find it odd that her sister who fled King's landing because the Lanisters killed her husband is totally cool with staying neutral in a war between the rest of her family and the murderers of her husband.
5) Doesnt realize that the easiest way to unite the Barantheon hosts is to get Renly to become Stannis heir, since (a) its clear that Stannis will not in fact bear an heir with his wife and (b) is too honorable to screw Renly out of his word which means that Renly gets to be king in another 10 years but in the meantime their joint enemy gets murdered handily.
The Starks really are team Derp [and ironically Ned is actually the best Stark after Arya because he actually does try to to do some shady stuff in the end, and he does understand why the previous hand was killed, and he does want to teach his daughter how to fight and when he was Robs age and facing a war against the King he did the right thing and married the woman who was suppose to be the wife of his elder brother to seal an alliance and achieve the only thing that actually matters, victory. Which just tells you how derp filled the rest of their derpy family is].
If Cercei and Joffrey, and their personal followers, werent so evil then it would be hard not to cheer for the Lanisters.
Tyrion and Tywen explicitly understand how to rule a kingdom in a fair way, and never rush into rash and stupid decisions (and thus are a huge contrast with the Stark) It is unfortunate that Tywen blames Tyrion for his wive's death and doesnt see how stupid his daughter and grandson are, if he did he'd have those two killed and put Tomen in charge while Tywen is the Hand. Jamie can go off and be a douchebag knight wherever, since joining the Kingguard means he cant ever inherit the family lands anyway.
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listening to the season 2 soundtrack right now. so good
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On May 31 2012 11:56 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:On May 30 2012 02:25 Bleak wrote:Finally we were able to watch a good episode this season. + Show Spoiler +I didn't get why they didn't have more wildfire barrels. That warehouse the old alchemist showed Tyrion was full of that shit. That small boat wouldn't hold enough of it to completely deplete the reserves. I expected them to hurl the barrels with catapults toward the fleet and soldiers, but was disappointed to see that didn't happen. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, the rest of the episodes so far would have been unwatchable for me. I hope this episode means things will pick up the pace now and we'll watch quality episodes. In that case i don't think that GOT is for you I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark. Dont forget Lady Stark, she is just as stupid as her son.
She didn't know that capturing Tyrion would start a war, Robert was still alive at the time. Also it could be argued what started the war was Ned telling Cersei he knew about the twincest kids. Eddard wasn't in the heartland of the sworn enemy, he was Hand of the King for his best friend that sat on the Iron Throne. Catelyn arrested Tyrion because she thought he attempted murder on her son and wanted justice.
Stannis and Renly hate each other, I don't know how she would get them to unite. She was at the summit between them and seen how poorly that went.
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On May 31 2012 12:16 Flik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:56 Sub40APM wrote:On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:
[quote]
In that case i don't think that GOT is for you
I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark. Dont forget Lady Stark, she is just as stupid as her son. She didn't know that capturing Tyrion would start a war, Robert was still alive at the time. Also it could be argued what started the war was Ned telling Cersei he knew about the twincest kids. Eddard wasn't in the heartland of the sworn enemy, he was Hand of the King for his best friend that sat on the Iron Throne. Catelyn arrested Tyrion because she thought he attempted murder on her son and wanted justice. Stannis and Renly hate each other, I don't know how she would get them to unite. She was at the summit between them and seen how poorly that went.
She didn't think capturing a son of TYWIN LANNISTER would start a war? Lannister always pays his debts, Rains of Castamere / Etc. Remember she only didn't kill Tyrion because he outsmarted her.
Ned told Cersei that he knew about things. That was like literally the worst thing he could have EVER done. Tell the person you mean to bring things upon that you are going to do it. Did he really think Cersei would flee King's Landing? He sealed his own death and that of his friend Roberts... and most of his household guard.
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On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:On May 30 2012 02:25 Bleak wrote:Finally we were able to watch a good episode this season. + Show Spoiler +I didn't get why they didn't have more wildfire barrels. That warehouse the old alchemist showed Tyrion was full of that shit. That small boat wouldn't hold enough of it to completely deplete the reserves. I expected them to hurl the barrels with catapults toward the fleet and soldiers, but was disappointed to see that didn't happen. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, the rest of the episodes so far would have been unwatchable for me. I hope this episode means things will pick up the pace now and we'll watch quality episodes. In that case i don't think that GOT is for you I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark.
Confused isn't necessarily stupid. I completely agree that Jon's confused, but think it's completely reasonable for his growth as a character to be young and confused. If he was perfect, then it would leave him no room to grow (at least not interestingly).
As for Robb, how was losing the North representative of his stupidity? I've mentioned it before. It would have likely happened no matter what. His fate was sealed when he crossed south. As for the girl, that's basically his mistake. Someone (i don't remember if it was you or not) was complaining that Jon always follows his vows, when everyone else breaks them and that makes hims stupid. He's making a mistake. Does that make him stupid in general? I don't think so. He's young and plus...it's a war. Shit happens.
Now Catelyn...THAT's stupid. Robb and Jon don't even compare.
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United States7639 Posts
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It seems that some people in this thread are confusing taking the occasional act that seems stupid with perfect hindsight with actual stupidity. I've been known to do stupid things from time to time, but I still like to think of myself as a pretty smart person : )
Also:
Dont forget Lady Stark, she is just as stupid as her son.
1) Starts the war before the Starks are ready, while her husband is thousands miles away from his troops in the heartland of their sworn enemy to capture a dwarf who (a) is hated by his father and thus not worth much as a hostage (b) is hated by everyone else in family Lanister except Jamie and thus never had any important jobs. And sure eventually we see that the Imp is actually the smartest Lanister of them all and proves a valuable member of his family but at the time that Lady Stark has him kidnapped he was just a hated younger son. In return for kidnapping him she causes the capture of her two daughters and the best leader the North has.
Catelyn capturing Tyrion was certainly impetuous, and perhaps foolish. However, you should note when you watch the episode that she at first attempts to hide her identity from Tyrion, and doesn't make a move until he recognizes her. Maybe for some reason she thought him recognizing her put her in danger? I don't know, and like I said her actions could well have been foolish.
BUT notice the way she went about capturing him. She first got the soldiers in the inn to acknowledge their fealty to her father. After doing that, they could hardly refuse when she asked them to capture Tyrion, even though they know as well as she does Tywin's reputation. Also, she misdirects potential pursuers by saying "often and loudly" that they were going to Winterfell. In my opinion, both of these actions were very shrewd, even if capturing Tyrion was not.
2) Frees the beloved son and best fighter, if not strategist, of the enemy in exchange for 2 worthless girls [obviously Arya is actually pretty awesome but Lady Stark doesnt know this, to her they are just to girls who at best might be married off to the Arye and Dorne and whatever kingdom the gay knight and his sister are from to seal alliances but for all intents and purposes in Westeros women are useless]
Jaime is many things, but he is not a strategist. He is an excellent fighter, and men follow him because of his reputation and who is father is, but many characters in the show are better strategists. I don't know what "Arye" is, but why would the Starks marry off their daughters to Dorne? That doesn't make any sense at all. I recommend paying more attention to the lore, you don't appear to have any idea what you are talking about.
Catelyn was wrong to release Jaime because of his value as a hostage, but I can sympathize with her choice. She loves her daughters, and not just because of their marriage potential...
3) Realizes that her derp son is about to throw away the Frey alliance for some medic foreigner, too stupid to remind Robb that when his father had to, he married for the good of the kingdom and not just his own selfish derp needs.
You shouldn't say "derp" so much, it's irritating. I'm starting to regret responding to you : ( you are looking more and more like a troll but I guess I'm committed now. Didn't she remind Robb of his obligations to the Frey's? When she first met "Lady Talisa" she lectured him about it.
4) Doesnt find it odd that her sister who fled King's landing because the Lanisters killed her husband is totally cool with staying neutral in a war between the rest of her family and the murderers of her husband.
She is clearly pissed off at Lysa, they fight about it and Lysa yells at her... not sure what you mean about her not finding it odd.
5) Doesnt realize that the easiest way to unite the Barantheon hosts is to get Renly to become Stannis heir, since (a) its clear that Stannis will not in fact bear an heir with his wife and (b) is too honorable to screw Renly out of his word which means that Renly gets to be king in another 10 years but in the meantime their joint enemy gets murdered handily.
That's an incredibly brilliant idea! If only you had been there, the realm could have been united against the Lannisters. Your peacemaking skills are an inspiration to us all.
The Starks really are team Derp [and ironically Ned is actually the best Stark after Arya because he actually does try to to do some shady stuff in the end, and he does understand why the previous hand was killed, and he does want to teach his daughter how to fight and when he was Robs age and facing a war against the King he did the right thing and married the woman who was suppose to be the wife of his elder brother to seal an alliance and achieve the only thing that actually matters, victory. Which just tells you how derp filled the rest of their derpy family is].
If Cercei and Joffrey, and their personal followers, werent so evil then it would be hard not to cheer for the Lanisters.
I can't bring myself to respond to this in detail, b/c I cringe every time I read "derp." Ugh. I guess I will say that I agree about Ned and Arya, they are my favorite Starks too!
Tyrion and Tywen explicitly understand how to rule a kingdom in a fair way, and never rush into rash and stupid decisions (and thus are a huge contrast with the Stark) It is unfortunate that Tywen blames Tyrion for his wive's death and doesnt see how stupid his daughter and grandson are, if he did he'd have those two killed and put Tomen in charge while Tywen is the Hand. Jamie can go off and be a douchebag knight wherever, since joining the Kingguard means he cant ever inherit the family lands anyway.
Are you basing your impression of Tywin as being "fair" on anything in particular? He is an effective leader, and a seriously scary dude, but fairness is not a value he takes seriously. Also, Tyrion is extremely rash. I could site dozens of examples from the show.
I sincerely apologize for responding in a snarky manner, I don't usually do this. I think I meant to copy someone else's post that at least didn't use "derp" but I accidently copied yours. Oh well, arguing on the internet is nothing if not entertaining!
Edit:
Theon grew up with Robb as a "brother" and Ned as a "father" but always knew it wasn't real, that it wasn't really his. He believed that he was to the Iron Islands what Robb was to the north, that there was some kind of equivalence between their status but that he had been robbed (no pun intended) of his birthright. Ned dies and Robb is elevated to his position as the young king and Theon remains an outsider, completely overshadowed by his "brother". In his mind he believes he is owed the same, that were he on the iron islands he'd be Robb's equal, and he entertains this fantasy that he'll go there, be reunited with his father and lead his men against the Lannisters as Robb does. The idea of finally claiming his birthright and truly being a peer and equal to Robb blinds him to the reality of what the Greyjoys are.
When he finally goes there he is confronted by the harsh reality and the rejection by his father. He discovers that he is not the respected young commander of the Ironborn, simply removed from them by circumstance, but instead an irrelevant boy, corrupted by years of Winterfell. All illusion is stripped away, he is confronted with the harsh reality of his own worthlessness and with it a huge amount of pent up resentment towards Robb who had everything. Robb had a father, a family, a kingdom and now an army while Theon was witness to the raising of a Lord who he viewed as a brother but was always an outsider. It is not surprising that Theon set out to claim "what was his" at the expense of the north.
Very well said in my opinion. Possibly the thing I love most about this series is that when you parse the characters ' actions/statements closely enough their motivations become clear. It makes all the characters sympathetic, even the "bad" ones.
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^ except Cateyln.
Can't be sympathetic about her releasing Jaime, nope.
P.S. I don't think Stannis would have accepted that Renly become his heir. To Stannis, the throne is rightfully his in every way. He was faithful to Robert even when he was unfair, because Robert had the throne. He expects that, and nothing less, from Renly. So when Renly declares himself King, well, shit.
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On May 31 2012 11:56 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:On May 30 2012 02:25 Bleak wrote:Finally we were able to watch a good episode this season. + Show Spoiler +I didn't get why they didn't have more wildfire barrels. That warehouse the old alchemist showed Tyrion was full of that shit. That small boat wouldn't hold enough of it to completely deplete the reserves. I expected them to hurl the barrels with catapults toward the fleet and soldiers, but was disappointed to see that didn't happen. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, the rest of the episodes so far would have been unwatchable for me. I hope this episode means things will pick up the pace now and we'll watch quality episodes. In that case i don't think that GOT is for you I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark. If Cercei and Joffrey, and their personal followers, werent so evil then it would be hard not to cheer for the Lanisters.
Joffrey isnt derp? He's so cocky and arrogant and knows nothing about everything. Every time i see him i hate him and facepalm whenever his mouth opens. Damn that actor is good, too good sadly gonna remember him as Joffrey forever 
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The show feels so rushed. We saw like 10 minutes of direwolv & dragons in total.
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On May 31 2012 12:36 Corrik wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 12:16 Flik wrote:On May 31 2012 11:56 Sub40APM wrote:On May 31 2012 07:21 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:
[quote]
I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable.
Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore. Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled. Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured. Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid. Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb. Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up. Arya is probably the smartest Stark. Dont forget Lady Stark, she is just as stupid as her son. She didn't know that capturing Tyrion would start a war, Robert was still alive at the time. Also it could be argued what started the war was Ned telling Cersei he knew about the twincest kids. Eddard wasn't in the heartland of the sworn enemy, he was Hand of the King for his best friend that sat on the Iron Throne. Catelyn arrested Tyrion because she thought he attempted murder on her son and wanted justice. Stannis and Renly hate each other, I don't know how she would get them to unite. She was at the summit between them and seen how poorly that went. She didn't think capturing a son of TYWIN LANNISTER would start a war? Lannister always pays his debts, Rains of Castamere / Etc. Remember she only didn't kill Tyrion because he outsmarted her. Ned told Cersei that he knew about things. That was like literally the worst thing he could have EVER done. Tell the person you mean to bring things upon that you are going to do it. Did he really think Cersei would flee King's Landing? He sealed his own death and that of his friend Roberts... and most of his household guard.
Ned and Catelyn adhere to higher "moral standards" than most other characters in the book. Whether it is stupid to have high moral standards or not depends on your own moral compass I suppose, but Ned and Catelyn are honest, fair and both have strong beliefs in justice. Mind you, everything had to go wrong for the Starks for their actions to come back and hurt them, but whether you use hindsight and call that stupid or you say "damn, GRRM gave the Lannisters some thickass plot armour" depends on your own view on morality. That is, while you can blame the Starks for being too proud to sink to the level of the Lannisters to fight deception with deception, plot with plot, but on the other hand, they were in a position to not need to change given their initial advantage.
Here's what fucked up for the Starks:
1. Robert getting killed by a boar
2. Littlefinger and the city watch betraying Ned
3. Sansa betraying her family
4. Joffrey's unpredictable execution of Ned
5. Lysa's stupidity leading to Tyrion's freedom
6. Lysa betraying the Starks' war effort
7. Theon betraying the Starks' war effort
8. Renly being killed by magic
9. Stannis being a stubborn fool
10. The Tyrells siding with the Lannisters
These are just what I can think up on the top of my head.
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On May 31 2012 12:03 PoopLord wrote:
listening to the season 2 soundtrack right now. so good
I'm actually kind of let down. :/ But "What Is Dead May Never Die" is just so awesome.
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Would love to see Joff try to give Stannis a ¨red smile¨--- >_>
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I kind of fail hating Joffrey, he is a boy, yes a boy, with the most power over all. How is he expected to make well thought and morally acceptable decisions?
Anyone 25+ will have to admit that his views on morals and honor have changed dramatically compared to their morals when they were boys.
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On May 31 2012 18:37 frontliner2 wrote:
I kind of fail hating Joffrey, he is a boy, yes a boy, with the most power over all. How is he expected to make well thought and morally acceptable decisions?
Anyone 25+ will have to admit that his views on morals and honor have changed dramatically compared to their morals when they were boys.
He has no excuse, really. Everyone around him is pointing out how much of a douchebag and idiot he is, and they're not even clandestine about it --- everyone says this right in his face. Instead of manning up and taking his job as a king and advice he's being given by people more versed in the ways of court, politics, etiquette and life in general seriously, our beloved king Joffrey Baratheon decides to remain nothing more but a cruel, spoiled child.
There is no hope for him. I guess it would be fine if he were man enough to be able to instill fear in other ways than through random cruelty being delivered by his scary lackeys. If, for example, Joff would once take up his sword and personally carve up some badass for insulting him, then everything changes, all the fear would be justified as it would be backed up with some respect. As is, his randomness is what people fear but no one has any respect for him for anything. If you can't get respect through whatever means (fear, kindness, cunning, calculated cruelty, etc.), you most likely won't be king for long.
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On May 31 2012 15:57 BlindKill wrote:
The show feels so rushed. We saw like 10 minutes of direwolv & dragons in total.
I fail to see how this makes the show rushed >_>
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EPT![[image loading]](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4rslpcQTL1r46lljo5_r1_500.gif)
![[image loading]](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4rslpcQTL1r46lljo2_500.gif)
