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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
United States11320 Posts
On May 31 2012 04:33 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 01:46 Uncultured wrote:On May 30 2012 23:16 Live2Win wrote:On May 30 2012 13:31 Sprungjeezy wrote:On May 30 2012 12:58 Tewks44 wrote:On May 30 2012 12:17 BlindKill wrote:Robb,Jon and Theon are just bad. They are only as powerful as their liegelords/army. I'd say the power rankings should have these people: Brienne Loras Tyrell Barristan Selmy Jaime Lannister Clegane brothers Robert ( He did beat the Dragon Prince Rhaegar ) Drogo Bronn ( Killed Ser Vardis Egen, champion of Vale of Arryn) Syrio Forel Ned (his past is very badass) http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/05/29/game-of-thrones-new-season-3-characters-revealed/We get to meet the Tully family :D I'd say Barristan Selmy or Sandor Clegane is probably the best, but you gotta give Jaime a hand, too In my opinion: Garlan Tyrell (Loras' brother) Barristan the Badass (in his prime and now) Jaime (in his prime) Bronn Syrio Robert (in his prime) Ned (in his prime) Brienne Uhhh... let's not make up nicknames for warriors... Barristan the BOLD is called that from the books, among couple of other names "Barristan the Old, Ser Grandfather, etc". Barristan the badass is not a name used for the great Barristan Selmy Calm down there quick-draw. We can call characters anything we want. Barristan the Badass is very fitting imo. Barristan the Beaming Beacon of Badassness is better though. nonononono it's all wrong!
I like it. It's a good way to remember their names.
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United States42925 Posts
On May 31 2012 05:06 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:17 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 31 2012 04:07 Juggernaut477 wrote: Also on Loras, i understand people being confused about him not being ripped and all, but that is his character, a girl-ish young man who looks soft but is one of the best jouster in the kingdoms. Im pretty sure it's not a mistake, and they deliberately recruited someone with that looks, doesnt make sense? Well, it is what it is. When i've first seen the knight of flowers, i was like "GAAAAAY" and shortly after it he turned out to be gay indeed, so GJ there HBO they basically emphasized the "flowers" over "the knight" ...and that is whatever, who really cares in the long run. But anybody claiming his frame is realistic forsomeone who is a knight in practice, not just as a title, are completely wrong. It's also stereotypical casting as far as homosexuals go. Big, burly men can be homosexuals too. Example, Bjarne Melgaard: ![[image loading]](http://www.konstbolaget.se/edoc/brand_img/612-0.jpg)
Loras was written as a pretty boy, not as a bear.
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On May 31 2012 05:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:06 Quotidian wrote:On May 31 2012 04:17 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 31 2012 04:07 Juggernaut477 wrote: Also on Loras, i understand people being confused about him not being ripped and all, but that is his character, a girl-ish young man who looks soft but is one of the best jouster in the kingdoms. Im pretty sure it's not a mistake, and they deliberately recruited someone with that looks, doesnt make sense? Well, it is what it is. When i've first seen the knight of flowers, i was like "GAAAAAY" and shortly after it he turned out to be gay indeed, so GJ there HBO they basically emphasized the "flowers" over "the knight" ...and that is whatever, who really cares in the long run. But anybody claiming his frame is realistic forsomeone who is a knight in practice, not just as a title, are completely wrong. It's also stereotypical casting as far as homosexuals go. Big, burly men can be homosexuals too. Example, Bjarne Melgaard: Loras was written as a pretty boy, not as a bear.
keep book discussions to the spoiler thread! 
there are so many things that have changed in the translation from book to tv that they could easily have changed some physical attributes of Loras, if it was important to them that he physically look like a knight. But it was obviously not that important for the casting people. And anyway, I don't remember anything from the book where it said the Knight of Flowers looked weak and skinny. He's armored pretty much all the time from what I can remember
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I love the scene where Loras get's introduced with his flower :D gave me a great feeling of classic chivalry somehow. Prince on a white horse kind of feel. Really well done 
Well acted too.
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On May 31 2012 04:16 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 02:21 sc4k wrote:On May 31 2012 00:32 OKMarius wrote:On May 31 2012 00:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Do you guys remember a few episodes ago where the two nameless Lannister grunts were talking about the best fighters in the land before they were eaten by Rob's wolf after making a fart joke?
They specifically mention Jamie and the Cleganes before pointing out that Loras is better with a sword than any of them (before mocking him for being gay). As well as we're aware, he's the best contest duelists and in general one of the best if not the best swordsmen in the realm. Of people who are still assuredly alive, I'd probably rank it Barristan/Jamie (too close to call, Barristan is one of the best there ever was from all we're told, but he's old), Loras, Hound, Mountain. Based on the tv-series we've seen Loras losing to Brienne, so I doubt he can be called the best duelist. On a side note, I wonder why the actor didn't buff up more for the role? Loras isn't supposed to be big, but he seems strangely unmuscular for such a great fighter. No one would have had hollywood muscles in those days (or at least assuming we are talking about our history comparing in some way to GoT). Many regular sword fighting re-enacters have unimpressive muscles but can hold weapons up and wield them more effectively and for longer than 'muscular' guys. if a large part of your workday and training includes walking around in plate armor, you'd look a lot more buff than that actor does. He'd basically look more like a wrestler, with huge neck and shoulder muscles from carrying all that weight, and a really compact core from swinging as sword around a lot. And since he's highborn he gets to eat venison or whatever, which means plenty of protein. Yeah, the actor should've bulked up, because he's not exactly convincing as an armor-clad knight.. I can understand not caring too much about it, because at the end of the day what he looks like isn't that important, but anybody who thinks his frame is realistic considering what the character has been doing his entire life, they basically don't understand human anatomy at all
Damn, knighthood and shiny armours are serious business...!
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On May 31 2012 05:23 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:10 KwarK wrote:On May 31 2012 05:06 Quotidian wrote:On May 31 2012 04:17 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 31 2012 04:07 Juggernaut477 wrote: Also on Loras, i understand people being confused about him not being ripped and all, but that is his character, a girl-ish young man who looks soft but is one of the best jouster in the kingdoms. Im pretty sure it's not a mistake, and they deliberately recruited someone with that looks, doesnt make sense? Well, it is what it is. When i've first seen the knight of flowers, i was like "GAAAAAY" and shortly after it he turned out to be gay indeed, so GJ there HBO they basically emphasized the "flowers" over "the knight" ...and that is whatever, who really cares in the long run. But anybody claiming his frame is realistic forsomeone who is a knight in practice, not just as a title, are completely wrong. It's also stereotypical casting as far as homosexuals go. Big, burly men can be homosexuals too. Example, Bjarne Melgaard: Loras was written as a pretty boy, not as a bear. keep book discussions to the spoiler thread! there are so many things that have changed in the translation from book to tv that they could easily have changed some physical attributes of Loras, if it was important to them that he physically look like a knight. But it was obviously not that important for the casting people. And anyway, I don't remember anything from the book where it said the Knight of Flowers looked weak and skinny. He's armored pretty much all the time from what I can remember
The writing of Loras always made me think "gymnast, not weightlifter" if you get what I mean. He's supposed to be more slight, and he's the best jouster in the kingdoms as much because of his horsemanship ("Like he was born in the saddle") and he has fantastic technique (practices daily) vs. someone like the mountain, who's just so goddamn huge that a horse can barely carry him. His brother Garlan Tyrell is supposed to be the better swordsman though.
On May 31 2012 04:16 Quotidian wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 02:21 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 00:32 OKMarius wrote:On May 31 2012 00:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Do you guys remember a few episodes ago where the two nameless Lannister grunts were talking about the best fighters in the land before they were eaten by Rob's wolf after making a fart joke?
They specifically mention Jamie and the Cleganes before pointing out that Loras is better with a sword than any of them (before mocking him for being gay). As well as we're aware, he's the best contest duelists and in general one of the best if not the best swordsmen in the realm. Of people who are still assuredly alive, I'd probably rank it Barristan/Jamie (too close to call, Barristan is one of the best there ever was from all we're told, but he's old), Loras, Hound, Mountain. Based on the tv-series we've seen Loras losing to Brienne, so I doubt he can be called the best duelist. On a side note, I wonder why the actor didn't buff up more for the role? Loras isn't supposed to be big, but he seems strangely unmuscular for such a great fighter. No one would have had hollywood muscles in those days (or at least assuming we are talking about our history comparing in some way to GoT). Many regular sword fighting re-enacters have unimpressive muscles but can hold weapons up and wield them more effectively and for longer than 'muscular' guys. if a large part of your workday and training includes walking around in plate armor, you'd look a lot more buff than that actor does. He'd basically look more like a wrestler, with huge neck and shoulder muscles from carrying all that weight, and a really compact core from swinging as sword around a lot. And since he's highborn he gets to eat venison or whatever, which means plenty of protein. Yeah, the actor should've bulked up, because he's not exactly convincing as an armor-clad knight.. I can understand not caring too much about it, because at the end of the day what he looks like isn't that important, but anybody who thinks his frame is realistic considering what the character has been doing his entire life, they basically don't understand human anatomy at all
I agree entirely with this last post. Sure no one in the series (except the mountain, the hound, greatjon umber, and a handful more) but those guys are freaks, and they're supposed to be almost immediately recognizable just based on their size. Any night though, is wearing armour most of the day that weighs over 100 pounds. It's all core strength though - swords in the middle ages didn't weigh more than three or four pounds, and even a two handed sword (which the mountain is still capable of using with one hand) is only ~8 pounds. They're more about leverage and technique than about being a club, and while you're going to have awesome back and shoulder and ab strength to use one of these, it's VERY different than the modern picture of strength.
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I think it provides a good contrast to the bigger knights that have a very different attitude (homosexuality aside).
The bigger knights are those that love killing (Mountain, Hound, Jaime, etc.) while instead you have the slim Loras who seems to revel more in the glory and showmanship of combat. The physical contrast along with the attitude contrast is a nice touch I think.
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On May 31 2012 04:16 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 02:21 sc4k wrote:On May 31 2012 00:32 OKMarius wrote:On May 31 2012 00:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Do you guys remember a few episodes ago where the two nameless Lannister grunts were talking about the best fighters in the land before they were eaten by Rob's wolf after making a fart joke?
They specifically mention Jamie and the Cleganes before pointing out that Loras is better with a sword than any of them (before mocking him for being gay). As well as we're aware, he's the best contest duelists and in general one of the best if not the best swordsmen in the realm. Of people who are still assuredly alive, I'd probably rank it Barristan/Jamie (too close to call, Barristan is one of the best there ever was from all we're told, but he's old), Loras, Hound, Mountain. Based on the tv-series we've seen Loras losing to Brienne, so I doubt he can be called the best duelist. On a side note, I wonder why the actor didn't buff up more for the role? Loras isn't supposed to be big, but he seems strangely unmuscular for such a great fighter. No one would have had hollywood muscles in those days (or at least assuming we are talking about our history comparing in some way to GoT). Many regular sword fighting re-enacters have unimpressive muscles but can hold weapons up and wield them more effectively and for longer than 'muscular' guys. if a large part of your workday and training includes walking around in plate armor, you'd look a lot more buff than that actor does. He'd basically look more like a wrestler, with huge neck and shoulder muscles from carrying all that weight, and a really compact core from swinging as sword around a lot. And since he's highborn he gets to eat venison or whatever, which means plenty of protein. Yeah, the actor should've bulked up, because he's not exactly convincing as an armor-clad knight.. I can understand not caring too much about it, because at the end of the day what he looks like isn't that important, but anybody who thinks his frame is realistic considering what the character has been doing his entire life, they basically don't understand human anatomy at all
Nah I know plenty of people who are strong enough to use armour and a sword well, some are fat, some have bulk and some are thin. All of them share a common, impressive strength and muscular endurance which comes from regularly using the items. Loras' physique would definitely be possible, especially if he doesn't spend a huge amount of time practicing and training. Maybe he just has some natural talent...
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On May 31 2012 06:15 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:16 Quotidian wrote:On May 31 2012 02:21 sc4k wrote:On May 31 2012 00:32 OKMarius wrote:On May 31 2012 00:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Do you guys remember a few episodes ago where the two nameless Lannister grunts were talking about the best fighters in the land before they were eaten by Rob's wolf after making a fart joke?
They specifically mention Jamie and the Cleganes before pointing out that Loras is better with a sword than any of them (before mocking him for being gay). As well as we're aware, he's the best contest duelists and in general one of the best if not the best swordsmen in the realm. Of people who are still assuredly alive, I'd probably rank it Barristan/Jamie (too close to call, Barristan is one of the best there ever was from all we're told, but he's old), Loras, Hound, Mountain. Based on the tv-series we've seen Loras losing to Brienne, so I doubt he can be called the best duelist. On a side note, I wonder why the actor didn't buff up more for the role? Loras isn't supposed to be big, but he seems strangely unmuscular for such a great fighter. No one would have had hollywood muscles in those days (or at least assuming we are talking about our history comparing in some way to GoT). Many regular sword fighting re-enacters have unimpressive muscles but can hold weapons up and wield them more effectively and for longer than 'muscular' guys. if a large part of your workday and training includes walking around in plate armor, you'd look a lot more buff than that actor does. He'd basically look more like a wrestler, with huge neck and shoulder muscles from carrying all that weight, and a really compact core from swinging as sword around a lot. And since he's highborn he gets to eat venison or whatever, which means plenty of protein. Yeah, the actor should've bulked up, because he's not exactly convincing as an armor-clad knight.. I can understand not caring too much about it, because at the end of the day what he looks like isn't that important, but anybody who thinks his frame is realistic considering what the character has been doing his entire life, they basically don't understand human anatomy at all Nah I know plenty of people who are strong enough to use armour and a sword well, some are fat, some have bulk and some are thin. All of them share a common, impressive strength and muscular endurance which comes from regularly using the items. Loras' physique would definitely be possible, especially if he doesn't spend a huge amount of time practicing and training. Maybe he just has some natural talent...
Out of interest I googled this and found an interesting discussion: How much did medieval suits of armor weigh?
There's a lot of crap there, but also a few guys that have studied the history a lot, and a fair number of people that actually do recreational fighting in armor. General points: the weight of the armor.. depends on the armor. Some jousting armor could apparently be extremely heavy, but one guy with a beer belly that works in an office and just does the knight-play stuff for fun says that his 80-pound armor set isn't particularly restrictive -- he can run around, get back on his feet, and fight in it reasonably well.
I don't know -- if you're wearing heavy armor every day, you're certainly going to have some strength, but it doesn't seem like you really have to be that ripped to pull it off. I don't really remember Loras's half-naked body well enough to say if I think he'd be able to wear heavy armor or not, but I think people might be getting a bit misled by what's considered "buff" these days -- don't take bodybuilders as a good measure of what's strong or not.
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On May 31 2012 05:53 phyre112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:23 Quotidian wrote:On May 31 2012 05:10 KwarK wrote:On May 31 2012 05:06 Quotidian wrote:On May 31 2012 04:17 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 31 2012 04:07 Juggernaut477 wrote: Also on Loras, i understand people being confused about him not being ripped and all, but that is his character, a girl-ish young man who looks soft but is one of the best jouster in the kingdoms. Im pretty sure it's not a mistake, and they deliberately recruited someone with that looks, doesnt make sense? Well, it is what it is. When i've first seen the knight of flowers, i was like "GAAAAAY" and shortly after it he turned out to be gay indeed, so GJ there HBO they basically emphasized the "flowers" over "the knight" ...and that is whatever, who really cares in the long run. But anybody claiming his frame is realistic forsomeone who is a knight in practice, not just as a title, are completely wrong. It's also stereotypical casting as far as homosexuals go. Big, burly men can be homosexuals too. Example, Bjarne Melgaard: Loras was written as a pretty boy, not as a bear. keep book discussions to the spoiler thread! there are so many things that have changed in the translation from book to tv that they could easily have changed some physical attributes of Loras, if it was important to them that he physically look like a knight. But it was obviously not that important for the casting people. And anyway, I don't remember anything from the book where it said the Knight of Flowers looked weak and skinny. He's armored pretty much all the time from what I can remember The writing of Loras always made me think "gymnast, not weightlifter" if you get what I mean. He's supposed to be more slight, and he's the best jouster in the kingdoms as much because of his horsemanship ("Like he was born in the saddle") and he has fantastic technique (practices daily) vs. someone like the mountain, who's just so goddamn huge that a horse can barely carry him. His brother Garlan Tyrell is supposed to be the better swordsman though.
Gymnasts are still really, really buff.. and they get that buff just from throwing their own weight around. Now add the weight of armor and sword/shield on top of that.
![[image loading]](http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/29600000/Renly-and-Loras-Tyrell-house-baratheon-29678993-570-416.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://crossfitmilpitas.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fd64bd788340154357ebc8b970c-800wi)
![[image loading]](http://dclaiborne.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/how-to-build-muscle-bodyweight-2.jpg)
If muscle tone + boyishness was something the producers wanted to go for, I'm sure they could've found some australian surfer/actor with just as much acting chops as they guy they cast as Loras.. anyway, I'm gonna exit this conversation. I can feel my estrogen spiking already
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Dammit, I wanted Helm's Deep to fall. Er.. King's Landing.
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On May 31 2012 05:53 phyre112 wrote:
I agree entirely with this last post. Sure no one in the series (except the mountain, the hound, greatjon umber, and a handful more) but those guys are freaks, and they're supposed to be almost immediately recognizable just based on their size. Any night though, is wearing armour most of the day that weighs over 100 pounds. It's all core strength though - swords in the middle ages didn't weigh more than three or four pounds, and even a two handed sword (which the mountain is still capable of using with one hand) is only ~8 pounds. They're more about leverage and technique than about being a club, and while you're going to have awesome back and shoulder and ab strength to use one of these, it's VERY different than the modern picture of strength.
Uhh, sorry more like 60 lbs. And distributed across the whole body, isn't nearly as much as you're thinking it is. It's not like strapping weights to yourself. And Knights didn't wear armor 24/"most" of the day or anything crazy. Just during the hours that they needed it, and during training.
I'm not saying that Loras looks like someone who's been wearing armor and training in swordsmanship. But he probably wound't look all the much bulkier, certainly not say 300(spartacus movie) style, after having done that for a few years.
The shape your body gets in from controlled, precise workouts, and from manual labor across the day are very different. Which is what fighting and moving in armor would be much more akin to.
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United States11320 Posts
On May 31 2012 06:58 psychopat wrote:
Dammit, I wanted Helm's Deep to fall. Er.. King's Landing.
It just might. Robb is still on his way down with a medic, Theon's got marines (see what I did there?) and the wildfire's gone...
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the third gif just spoiled the shit out of me...is it really necessary to put it in the opening post  especially with it adding nothing to the post.../rant
so I just leave the thread again
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On May 31 2012 07:04 Jayjay54 wrote:the third gif just spoiled the shit out of me...is it really necessary to put it in the opening post especially with it adding nothing to the post.../rant so I just leave the thread again
How did that happen? O_o
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United States11320 Posts
On May 31 2012 07:12 Zinnwaldite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 07:04 Jayjay54 wrote:the third gif just spoiled the shit out of me...is it really necessary to put it in the opening post especially with it adding nothing to the post.../rant so I just leave the thread again How did that happen? O_o
It's the one where Pyan Pree murders the other 11 kings
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On May 31 2012 07:14 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 07:12 Zinnwaldite wrote:On May 31 2012 07:04 Jayjay54 wrote:the third gif just spoiled the shit out of me...is it really necessary to put it in the opening post especially with it adding nothing to the post.../rant so I just leave the thread again How did that happen? O_o It's the one where Pyan Pree murders the other 11 kings
yeah,, i know,, but how on earth did it happen that he got spoiled xD..
Why would anyone check this thread before watching? >_>
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On May 30 2012 06:48 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:17 Corrik wrote:On May 30 2012 05:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 04:33 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 04:04 StorkHwaiting wrote:On May 30 2012 03:42 sc4k wrote:On May 30 2012 02:46 CursedRich wrote:On May 30 2012 02:25 Bleak wrote:Finally we were able to watch a good episode this season. + Show Spoiler +I didn't get why they didn't have more wildfire barrels. That warehouse the old alchemist showed Tyrion was full of that shit. That small boat wouldn't hold enough of it to completely deplete the reserves. I expected them to hurl the barrels with catapults toward the fleet and soldiers, but was disappointed to see that didn't happen. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, the rest of the episodes so far would have been unwatchable for me. I hope this episode means things will pick up the pace now and we'll watch quality episodes. In that case i don't think that GOT is for you I have to echo CursedRich. Tyrion and Tywin are the only characters I actually sympathise with and really enjoy watching. Some of the storylines not involving them are class, but the characters themselves do not appeal to me. They are either a) too stupid, b) too deviant, or c) not believable. Honourable mention should I guess go to Bronn and the hound but they wouldn't be able to make the show 'good' in the absence of Tyrion or Tywin. If either of them dies then there better be a new character coming to take the reigns. Because I seriously can't stand half of the characters there. I enjoy the things that happen to them but can't stand them. Dany is the worst, only reason I don't fast forward through her is the dragons and the cool scenery/ change of pace in that area. What?? How are Arya, Sansa, Rob, and Jon not believable? Or Theon? Or Littlefinger or Varys? There are plenty of cool characters in this show. Various aspects of Arya's character scream 'artificial', she feels like the most 'forced' character, although having said that Danarys is definitely giving her a run for her money in that department. Littlefinger and Varys are unbelievable because they know too much information, and Martin gives an unrealistic and exaggerated amount of credit to the powers of spy networks to collect information. I don't consider any of the other characters mentioned not believable but they fall into my other aspects. Stupid = Rob, Jon, Theon, Sansa. I should say that I don't really mean stupid as in half-wit, I just mean that they make irritatingly un-thought-out decisions. I know they are supposed to be young, but I don't want to watch young people make stupid choices on shows, it's just not the sort of thing I watch TV for. I dislike young people mostly, I don't usually watch shows where the majority of the characters are teenagers. Of course that's a personal preference so you are entitled to have whatever opinion you have. By the way aside from reasons I have given there, I don't consider any of the characters you just mentioned to be 'cool'. Rob was the only one I was holding out for, but I just kind of lost interest when he started gawking at the medicine noblewoman. He might redeem himself though. I should say that I do sympathise with Arya and I like her story more than most of the others, but I just don't like the forced aspects of her character. On May 30 2012 04:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:
But at the same time you have to understand his position. He was only 17 when he stabbed the Mad King; he was young and confused. He was most definitely torn, facing a horrible dilemma. After all, the man he was sworn to protect turned into a murderous maniac. The honourable thing to do would have been to have died defending the Mad King, or perhaps forsake his oath and flee King's Landing as soon as Aeries went Mad and joined the rebellion. Haha, personally I would have done what Jaime did! How is Rob or Jon or Theon or Sansa stupid? Rob united the North and has won every battle he's fought against the Lannisters. Where is the stupidity? Jon is a bastard and was pretty much forced to go to the Wall by Catelyn Stark. Since going there, he's proven himself to be one of the best fighters and Mormont singled him out as leadership potential. He couldn't bring himself to kill a wildling woman because he's never killed a woman before. So instead, he decided to take her prisoner while he went to meet back up with his ranger party. At worst, you could say he's too soft-hearted. But stupid? What part of that was stupid? The fact he got lost? Shit like that happens. People get lost IRL. And it's not always because they're dumb. Theon decided to side with his blood and took Winterfell in a brilliant raid that nobody saw coming. That is the epitome of a bad ass strategist. Just because his sister philosophically disagrees with him on how the Ironborn should wage their war doesn't make him dumb. Sansa was immature, but I don't think she's at all stupid. If she was stupid, she'd be making a fuss and saying she hates Joffrey and doing pretty much everything possible to get her head put on a chopping block. Instead, she's been very careful to conceal her feelings and play the perfect princess, while quietly learning the politics of everything and trying to find a way to survive. You've offered a lot of opinion with very little substance to back them up. What parts of Arya are forced? LF and Varys know too much?! Robb is stupid, Jon is stupid, Theon is stupid, and Sansa is arguably stupid. Jon is stupid the same way Ned Stark was. He puts his vows way above common sense at times and makes a big deal about following them to a T while others clearly skirt around the vow. Robb lost his entire Kingdom and had his home burnt to the ground. He sent a Greyjoy, sworn enemies, to the Greyjoys to ask them for help? Thanks for handing over Winterfell. He may have never lost a battle but he has already lost basically his entire Kingdom. Theon is stupid... the show clearly spells this out for you and shows how immature and unsure of himself he is. Winterfell was a great success, but it was one they couldn't possibly hold. Greyjoy power rests on the sea. Sansa is smart but not smart. She is so keen on being a queen that she doesn't realize what is going on. BUT, she is smart enough to know when to play the part that is expected of her to not make things worse. You could say Sansa was dumb but wisened up. I'm sorry but you don't seem to be grasping the story quite right. Ned Stark wasn't at all stupid. He had principles. And he would have lived through everything with his honor intact if not for Joffrey's insanity. Smart people cannot account for insanity. Not even Joffrey's own family knew he was going to do what he did. How do you expect Ned Stark to be smart enough to have guessed that would happen? You're not understanding the world when you say Ned was stupid. You're just armchair quarterbacking in hindsight. There was nothing stupid about the way Ned did things. Ned helped put the Baratheon's on the throne. He was tired of war. He wanted peace and his daughters were stuck in the city with him. He couldn't count on the Goldcloaks betraying him, nor Littlefinger lying to him either. He tried to cover his bases while doing the right thing. At no point do I find Ned's actions idiotic, other than perhaps letting Cersei know that he knew about the true heritage of her children. But even then, Ned wasn't 100% sure. Not until he confronted Cersei with it. That was the only way for him to know for sure. So, no, I can't say I agree with you at all that Ned was stupid. Jon Snow. Vows above common sense? Lol?? Do you realize that if a Blackcloak is caught breaking his vows, he gets executed? Did you miss that part at the VERY beginning of the entire series? So you think it would be smarter for him to break his vows? I don't know which ones you're talking about that others "clearly skirt around." Because I'm pretty sure anyone who was caught doing so would be executed. Robb lost his entire kingdom... I hope you realize the North has a hell of a lot more castles than Winterfell and Torren's Square, seeing as that's all that's been taken by the Ironborn. When was his home burnt to the ground? I didn't see that part. Robb is King in the North. His entire Kingdom consists of dozens of castles, thousands of soldiers, hundreds of knights, and scores of lords. You are completely bonkers if you think the Greyjoys have taken over all of the North. Greyjoys were their sworn enemies... You do realize, the Greyjoys swore fealty and peace after being defeated right? To be a sworn enemy, you can't really swear fealty... The two are mutually exclusive. Greyjoys wouldn't send their son to hostage at Winterfell if they were sworn enemies. Again, you don't seem to grasp the nuance of the world. I also disagree about Theon holding Winterfell. Just because Asha doesn't think it can work, doesn't make that fact. Asha's just one person with one opinion. Theon probably knows Winterfell and its defenses a hell of a lot better than she does. She might be great on a ship and experienced with raiding villages, but that don't mean she knows jack about castle warfare. I have nothing else to say about Sansa, because I think you see why it's irrational to call her a stupid character at this point. Put simply, she's not stupid anymore.
Ned lost his life because he was stupid. Littlefinger and Renly said as much to him. They handed him the keys to the throne. He refused them, and so Littlefinger turned on him and Renly fled.
Jon Snow is one of the poorer examples of stupidity of the bunch, but he was the reason a few of his own Sworn Brothers were killed and that he is captured. He doesn't know which honor he is following and that's why his vows make him stupid. Am I following that in which women should not be harmed? Am I following that in which we must do whatever is required of a man in Black? Am I do that in which I wish to do as a man? Jon Snow is a confused man. His confusion led to the death of his Brothers and he remains captured.
Robb lost the North. I know it was hard to understand somewhat, but the Ironmen also took Moat Caitlin. With Robb lacking ships, he has really no way of getting past this choke back into the North. Moat Cailtin is known to take 100-1000 men for each 1 you take. He is essentially stuck in the Riverlands, and his North has been rampaged, looted, and conquered. Not to mention that now he is messing with a girl while he is betrothed, who represents a House that controls the Twins and is very powerful. He is stupid.
Theon... his stupidity is spelled out in the show. There is no reason for me to repeat upon it. The dialogue around Theon is there to show you what he is doing is totally dumb.
Sansa was stupid. You forget how she lied for Joffrey and was so thrilled to be his queen despite her noticing he was very girlish and quite cruel. It wasn't until Ned's head rolled that Sansa finally understood what was going on. Then she wisened up and played her role perfectly. But, until that point, Sansa beleived in prince charming and being swept off her feet by the most gallant knight and that everything was perfect for she would be queen. She has finally learned now. Thus, she was stupid and wisened up.
Arya is probably the smartest Stark.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On May 31 2012 05:07 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:33 Live2Win wrote:On May 31 2012 01:46 Uncultured wrote:On May 30 2012 23:16 Live2Win wrote:On May 30 2012 13:31 Sprungjeezy wrote:On May 30 2012 12:58 Tewks44 wrote:On May 30 2012 12:17 BlindKill wrote:Robb,Jon and Theon are just bad. They are only as powerful as their liegelords/army. I'd say the power rankings should have these people: Brienne Loras Tyrell Barristan Selmy Jaime Lannister Clegane brothers Robert ( He did beat the Dragon Prince Rhaegar ) Drogo Bronn ( Killed Ser Vardis Egen, champion of Vale of Arryn) Syrio Forel Ned (his past is very badass) http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/05/29/game-of-thrones-new-season-3-characters-revealed/We get to meet the Tully family :D I'd say Barristan Selmy or Sandor Clegane is probably the best, but you gotta give Jaime a hand, too In my opinion: Garlan Tyrell (Loras' brother) Barristan the Badass (in his prime and now) Jaime (in his prime) Bronn Syrio Robert (in his prime) Ned (in his prime) Brienne Uhhh... let's not make up nicknames for warriors... Barristan the BOLD is called that from the books, among couple of other names "Barristan the Old, Ser Grandfather, etc". Barristan the badass is not a name used for the great Barristan Selmy Calm down there quick-draw. We can call characters anything we want. Barristan the Badass is very fitting imo. Barristan the Beaming Beacon of Badassness is better though. nonononono it's all wrong! I like it. It's a good way to remember their names.
But these nicknames were given to them for a REASON. It's related to their history and their image as a knight/fighter/warrior/whatever. It defines them. I dunno just making up some random nickname and adding to someone seems like an insult to GRM's genius in his choosing of nicknames. Am I being too anal?
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United States42925 Posts
Theon grew up with Robb as a "brother" and Ned as a "father" but always knew it wasn't real, that it wasn't really his. He believed that he was to the Iron Islands what Robb was to the north, that there was some kind of equivalence between their status but that he had been robbed (no pun intended) of his birthright. Ned dies and Robb is elevated to his position as the young king and Theon remains an outsider, completely overshadowed by his "brother". In his mind he believes he is owed the same, that were he on the iron islands he'd be Robb's equal, and he entertains this fantasy that he'll go there, be reunited with his father and lead his men against the Lannisters as Robb does. The idea of finally claiming his birthright and truly being a peer and equal to Robb blinds him to the reality of what the Greyjoys are.
When he finally goes there he is confronted by the harsh reality and the rejection by his father. He discovers that he is not the respected young commander of the Ironborn, simply removed from them by circumstance, but instead an irrelevant boy, corrupted by years of Winterfell. All illusion is stripped away, he is confronted with the harsh reality of his own worthlessness and with it a huge amount of pent up resentment towards Robb who had everything. Robb had a father, a family, a kingdom and now an army while Theon was witness to the raising of a Lord who he viewed as a brother but was always an outsider. It is not surprising that Theon set out to claim "what was his" at the expense of the north.
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EPT
